TT110 Trimax control question

wrxz24

In my effort to learn about my new TT 110 boiler, I have a question regarding the system pump operation selections in the trimax set up.  You can select ch1/ch2/ dhw or just ch1/ch2 or only ch2.  With my particular system I have circulators for all my zones including the indirect.

Should the system pump operate for every call in my set up?  BTW, it is set on speed 1. 

On a side note, I also have a system bypass left over form my old system, since I do not care about return temps, can I keep the valve closed now that I have the Triangle Tube?

Thanks in advance

Pete

heatpro02920

Pictures

I think you posted some, but some of these posts run together in my head, maybe put all these posts in one thread for you..



If it is piped pri sec than the pump will run every time the burner runs as for the bypass, I would imagine you can leave it closed if its purpose was to protect your old boiler from cold returns the tt will love them cold returns.... But I will need to see pics to be sure that is what you have...

wrxz24

Thanks

The pipe right next to the expansion tank is the bypass. Thanks heat pro.

As for the pump, one option is to not have the pump run on an indirect call.

Here is a half butt drawing

Zman

primary/secondary?

Could you confirm the piping under the boiler. The TT110 would normally be piped primarily/secondary using the factory circ. Is the factory circ still installed (inside the cabinet)? A picture of that piping would be helpful.

Carl

wrxz24

I have these but I will

Take more when I get home today. The installer needs to come back and add a check valve on return pipe. Yes, the pump is still there on speed one. Thanks Zman.

Zman

Odd

Make sure your sketch is accurate. It looks like the he has the circs is series. Where does this bipass valve fit in? It makes it so much easier when it is installed per the manual. Once it is determined exactly how it is piped, I think we can help you get it set up right.

Carl

heatpro02920

As far as the primary circ running

if he piped the DHW supply from the far right tapping on its own circ then you are fine, if he piped it off of the secondary that all the heat zones come off of, then the circ needs to run when the dhw calls... I can not tell from the pics how he did it, when I do a 110 solo I pipe it from the DHW tapping and then return it into the primary piping with a pair of check valves.

wrxz24

Sketch is sketchy but..

I think I added everything in that sketch that needed to be added in terms of check valves, circulators, etc...the primary pipes are 11/4 inch but I don't think I have pri/ sec. i do have the close spacing tees but no direct piping back to the return except for the bypass but that is before the heating zones. Should I loop the 2 mains together at the end of the main supply and return? However, if even one zone is calling, I think I have enough flow and I shouldn't care about return temps so the bypass can stay closed.

Another thing is that the radiant zones all have the circulator on the supply, and the baseboards on the return( my original piping). Not sure if that makes a difference. I will,post more pics soon.

wrxz24

The indirect has its own taco 7 IFC

Circulator set up for priority on the idirect tapping on the boiler. rThe problem is that I am getting ghost flow into my main return from the system. The installer is coming back to instal a check valve on the return piping. Not a bad idea to return it to the main pipe. My system has the 2 returns meeting at the boiler, hence the ghost flow.

So on the boiler, the maim pump is enabled only on ch calls. The indirect flow is maintained by the taco. The main pump is set on the 1 setting and each heating zone has its own taco 007 for ch.

CMadatMe

I Have Yet To Come Across

A Triangle Piping diagram whether in the manual or the application guide attached that does not show the use of a differential by-pass valve when piped direct as this boiler is. What effect does the lack of its use have on the boiler and the system?



The boiler pump is a Grundy UPS15-58 and dependent on what speed it is on this is where the pump operates. This is based on where the HX and Pump curve cross. Where does all this flow go when you don't pri/sec or use a pressure differential? Are you dead heading the pump thus putting it through a slow death process?



Speed 1 6.5gpm @ 3.5' Head

Speed 2 8.7gpm @ 6.5' Head

Speed 3 10.3gpm @ 9' Head



That SSC if it's a 30 has a pressure drop of 5.6' at the required 8gpm flow rate to get its stated recovery. At 8 gpm the pressure drop in the HX is 5.5' so that pump would need to move 8gpm @ 12' Head and your not doing it with a Taco 007-IFC.. Need another Grundy UPS15-58FC on Speed 3 if your looking for the full recovery capability of the indirect.

wrxz24

So should I

Swap out the circulator? For the boiler pump in terms of dead heading, I should get a differential by pass valve installed on the bypass piping that is already there. Suppose I had enough flow when only one zone calls for heat, would I need to go that route?

My ss is the 50 gallon one. Not sure if that makes a difference.

CMadatMe

Should be Installed

As per the installation instructions. Pretty much the same pressure drop on the 50 as the 30.

Zman

Primary secondary

It looks like it would be easiest to put the the check valves on both the heating and dhw circs. I would then just cut in the tees to make it primary/secondary on the heating side, just like the manual. You can install that boiler with a diff bypass. Why would you? Having the circ in the boiler cabinet working in series with the zone circ is a bad idea for countless reasons.

wrxz24

Please explain a little further please

Just to clarify a few things, so you are saying I need to pipe the supply 11/4 to the return 1 1/4 after the zone circulators to make it primary/secondary loop?



Yes or no on the diff bypass?



If I make it primary/secondary, I should use the boiler pump? Just curious on the countless reasons for not using the boiler pump with zone pumps?

I need info for my installer. This was his first tt install. He wanted to put in a buderus wall hung. Is my boiler in danger if I run it the way it is now? Winter is coming, I guess I have time t o make the necessary changes.

Thanks for all the help.

CMadatMe

Whether

He installs Buderus, Peerless, Burnham, Weil, Viessmann, Triangle, NTI, Lochinvar or any other boiler he should know the basic piping concept and the do's and don't's that come with it.



I agree with Carl as to pipe it pri/sec and be done with it. I'd change the indirect pump as well unless your ok with the recovery of the tank as it stands. The pump is not wrong in the sense it will not work. It is wrong in the sense that your reducing the recovery rate of the indirect. May not matter depending on your DHW demand and needs..

wrxz24

To pipe it pri/sec

What is the best way to go about it? Can I just loop the supply with the return at the ends of the 11/4 black piping or do I need to do major pipe work?

I guess I am still not sure why I need pri/sec ...I know it has to do with helping with low flow if just one zone is calling ...I think. I envy you guys.

CMadatMe

I Posted

The Triangle application guide and I'll give it again. Follow the installation manual and use the guide. The way it is piped now you have a boiler pump and anyone of the zone pumps in series. In other words, two pumps moving water that have an effect on each other. You are over pumping.



There is no need to reinvent the wheel. It's in color...

SWEI

Hydraulic Separation

...sometimes in the form of primary/secondary piping allows two or more circuits to operate at differing flows and ∆Ts.  Using it can facilitate a greater ∆T on boiler loops, which can increase efficiency of a condensing boiler by allowing lower return water temperatures.

Paul48

Fix

Not an especially hard fix, but while you're at it, get that scoop piped correctly by extending the pipe before the elbow.

CMadatMe

Here's The Problem

With the boiler piped this way. Forget the two pumps pumping in series because that only means he'll over pump the zones.



When a zone is satisfied and no zone circulators are running then he is going to get migration because when the boiler pump posts purge it's going to send flow right through the circs. That's the reason for the pressure by-pass when piped direct and 95% of installers don't use them. It's even worse when zoned with zone valves. Then your dead heading the boiler pump..

wrxz24

To add pri/sec

According to the diagrams on the application guide, the near boiler piping would need to be changed. Two closely spaced tees off the supply for looping and return with check valves for boiler and indirect return. Got it thanks.

One more question, the system bypass I have now, keeping that open, wouldn't that prevent over pumping to the zones?

Paul48

Unknowns

By piping it P/S you're eliminating the unknowns.Your flow through the boiler will be constant, unaffected by anything that goes on with the zones. Your bypass just adds confusion. There will still be an affect on the boiler pump by just using that. The affect will be different depending on how many zones are calling. I think my head would explode, trying to figure out how each affected to flow.

wrxz24

Hence my confusion

I will simply pipe it pri/sec.  I suppose I can make the changes near the boiler, is this correct?



I can extend the return from the system back to the closely spaced tee with the supply and then up to the return from the indirect.  Does the pipe going up from the closely spaced tees need to be a certain length?  I know that the distance between the tees need to be at least 4x the diameter of the 1inch pipe which is 4 inches or less.  Check valves on the returns...anything else? 

Thanks again.

Paul48

Hmmm

Look at P3.......Adding a vertical pipe between the boiler ends of the supply and return manifolds give you a place for the closely spaced tee's. Look up the install instructions for the air scoop. There are requirements that it not be placed too close to elbows.Here is a simple explaination of P/S, and closely spaced tees. http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.html

wrxz24

Vertical pipe

Sorry for the confusion but adding a vertical pipe on which side, before or after the expansion tank?

Could I just loop the ends of the manifolds together after the circulators? Is this another way of making it pri/sec?



Edit.. I guess after looking at the pics again, that would not work. It would have to happen before the expansion tank.

wrxz24

Pipe it here?

Should I put the vertical pipes with closely spaced t's here where the supply and return piping make a rectangle to make it pri/sec? Thanks in advance.

Zman

Sure

If you connect the boiler pipes to create a loop and tie the manifolds into it using closely spaced tees, you will have primary/secondary.You will want to make the connection on a straight section of pipe. It looks like under the boiler would work well.

Carl

wrxz24

Will this work?

Thanks in advance

Zman

Yes

That will work. The flow through the primary is counterclockwise, yes?

wrxz24

Yes

The top piping of the loop is from the supply and the bottom is the return. Does it matter about where to tie in the manifolds into the loop in terms of where to put the supply and return piping? Thanks Zman.

Zman

Tees

Try to keep a minimum straight pipe of 8" to the left and 4" to the right of the setup you have drawn.

wrxz24

How about this arrangement?

It might be easier to do plus i can fix the air scoop piping at the same time and I will have more pipe length to tie into. So instead of tying into the boiler loop, i am tying into the secondary loop with the tees. Thanks again Zman.

Zman

Backwards

That will also work. It looks like the supply and return are backwards in that drawing.

Car

wrxz24

Which one?

The supply/return from boiler piping or the manifold piping? I think I will go this route but want to make sure i have everything in the correct order. Thanks



Here is a basic drawing of what it would look like.

Zman

Backwards

The boiler supply should be on the left

wrxz24

Thanks.

The boiler supply on left and the boiler return on right with 8 inches of straight pipe left and at least 4 inches to the right. Once I do that, what speed should i set the pump inside the boiler to? Thanks, Pete

Zman

Speed

With that configuration the 8" would be on the right.

Set the circulator to speed one.

wrxz24

One last thing Carl.

wrxz24

My options

CMadatMe

All This Time

Talking about 2 closely spaced tees equates to more cost and effort then just using a low loss header which will also act as you air/dirt elimination. Let the on board pump do its job and do what ever you want on the secondary side.

wrxz24

One last question

I am starting to prebuild the pri/sec piping. Can I pipe from the boiler and go above the supply manifold and drop into tees or does this cause a problem with inverted trapping?