propane wall mount boiler

panman

Hello heating friends, I currantly have a 2005 trinity Ti 150 in my home. I am heating 3000 sq. ft. I have had some issues over the years and now within the last 2 months have paid my oil company $1000 to correct an ERROR code message ER6, that happens when the temp drops below zero. When the exhaust pipe sensor is unplugged, the furnace runs when below zero. My furnace company called Trinity and changed the sensor and cleaned the furnace completely. Still doing it. Trinity says too much heat is going out the exhaust when the furnace is ramping up due to combustion. I am waiting on Both, my furnace company and Trinity to make a move of resolution. <strong>Well, now for my question. </strong>If i have to shop for a propane wall mount condensing boiler, <strong>What is the most efficiant, durable, best priced boiler on the market and please give price! Thanks  Peter</strong>

SWEI

3,000 square feet

Ti 150 puts out 136k - what is your building heat loss?  I'm pretty certain it's not 45 BTUs/sq ft.  The best boiler is the one that is properly sized and installed for your application.  The installer is actually the most important component of your system.  Unless there is something fundamentally un-fixable about that boiler, I'd be looking to make it work properly long before I replaced it.



FYI, as a matter of policy we don't discuss price here.

panman

propane wall mount boiler

Thanks SWEI, I guess i should have worded my post a little different. My boiler seems sized and installed correc. When not throwing the error code ER6, it runs and heats fine. I was looking ahead alittle and wondering what the experts were recomending as to what the overall best efficiant, reliable boiler equal to mine would be in todays market. Just incase!!!!! Thanks

SWEI

sizing

is almost certainly too big, though the turndown is high enough that you probably aren't seeing too much impact.  Is the outdoor reset sensor installed and programmed properly?



For new boilers, I like the Triangle Tube Prestige Trimax series or the Lochinvar Knight WHN.  Both are fire-tube designs.  Again, it is the installer and designer who are going to make or break your job.

Aaron_in_Maine

Indirect

Do you have a indirect water heater? Or do you have a ti150 combi? When your propane company cleaned the unit did they pull it completely apart?

panman

sizing

The outdoor reset is set and is within 5 degrees of acual temp. outside. Are you thinking the boiler is too big? Please explain 136K boiler heating 3000 sq.ft radiant home. how would this play into my ER6 error message. you have my curiosity!!! The boiler seems to cycle alot in cold weather. wouldn't an over sized boiler run less?Thanks for your time.

heatpro02920

You are going to continue to hear the word

SIZING, you need to figure out your buildings heat loss, unless you have 40ft ceilings and glass walls or a market style reach in freezer your current boiler is oversized, probably to the tune of 65K BTUs...



There are a few heat loss calculators you can do the math your self to figure it out, some 3000 sq ft homes I have seen were between 65K and 85K BTU..



As far as which boiler to use I have been pretty impressed with the Triangle Tube Prestige Solo units with the new control....



To figure out your system we will need to know what you use for dhw how many zones your water temps, a HEAT LOSS number ,ect...



I am not a fan of them trinity units at all... and as far as the cycling "a lot" on cold days, that is not what it is supposed to do, on the coldest day {your design day} it should never shut off... Now will this be the case, at some point it will, most heat loss calcs are higher than is actually needed anyway...

panman

indirect

Hey Aeron in Maine, i am in Maine also. I have an indirect 80 gallon hot water heater. I was not there when my oil company cleaned it.They told me they flushed it out and it was fairly dirty but have not heard back from them in 5 weeks. They had Trinity involvolved but Trinity is waiting for my furnace company to due a combustion test to see if the heat is being dispersed adaquatly. Only throws an error code when it get below 0. I wrote Trinity this morning. I spent $1000 already the past 2 months. I wish i knew a specialist that works on these boilers close to me!!! Thanks- Peter

icesailor

BUT:

It isn't going to get to zero again this year, but regardless of what size the boiler is, or how much it is slightly over-sized for the maximum cold days for heating, it is way over-sized for all the rest of the days, and especially in the summer when the only boiler load is the domestic hot water load.

The excuses for the error code 13 or whatever it is is an "air reason". A reason pulled out of the air.

When the boiler is throwing error codes when it is zero outside, you think it is still undersized? Turn on the indirect and run the hot water wide open. When that tank gets down to 80 degrees, that boiler isn't undersized then.

There's an argument going on in the boiler computer over who is in charge. It's probably something in the reset curves. Sounds like a computer glitch to me.

All these tea pot mini boilers you guys put in for primary heat and an after thought for DHW, are so undersized for Potable domestic hot water heating.

Here's a gross over/under-size situation I saw recently. A Peerless LCE 18 18 section steam boiler. It was being run at 14# steam. There was supposed to be more equipment connected to it but because of a world copper market glitch a few years back, the rest of the load wasn't unstalled. It's been running on oil since the start, 24 GPH. Way oversized. It cycles. So what. It does the job beautifully. What's a few quarts or gallons of oil among friends. It is a dual fuel burner. Set up now for LPG, it needed a load to keep it running for the burner's manufacturers representitive who had to be there for the gas inspection. The inspector wanted a "load". We gave him a load. We connected a 2" steam hose and ran it outside. We called the fire department in case someone thought the white "smoke" was a fire. We let 'er rip. It would still hold 12# while running. That's oversized.

Unless a boiler is designed and undersized at the beginning, it is always running oversized for the application. Unless or when running wide open for DHW use.

heatpro02920

good points

I don't like using the primary boiler for DHW, even with a mod/con, I would much rather have some sort of direct fired unit like a tankless when possible... I see the best efficiency results when the boiler is sized correctly, with the radiation oversized, an outdoor reset will help with the "oversized every other day of the year" issues as will a delta t circualtor.... this handfull of components will let the system make up for being oversized 90% of the heating season...



Now as for steam I have a tech that screwed me on 3 steam boiler replacements, before I caught what he was doing, he was oversizing them and causing havok with call backs, noisy pipes, constant short cycling, high oil bills... For some reason the gas steam systems he did were not as much of an issue, but the 3 oils turned into a nightmare, I ended up changing one for the correct size at my cost... He put 5 section where I put a 3 section...

Aaron_in_Maine

Message

If you want to message me your location. I might work in your area or know someone you could call to take a look at it.

SWEI

sorry, but

I have to take umbrage with a couple of those:





All these tea pot mini boilers you guys put in for primary heat and an

after thought for DHW, are so undersized for Potable domestic hot water

heating.



In my experience, properly sized indirects significantly outperform typical tank heaters.  The combination of increased firing rate and reduced impact of hard water is a big win.  For those with truly huge DHW loads, a supplementary tankless water heater will usually do the trick.





Unless a boiler is designed and undersized at the beginning, it is

always running oversized for the application.



A properly sized, installed, and controlled modulating boiler does not 'run oversized.'

panman

back to the POST

Positive informative information about MY POST and particular problem is welcome. I see some straying away from the original post. Thanks

heatpro02920

Need a heat loss

Only way to advise you on what boiler to replace the trinity with is to look at your heat loss, with out we are all just guessing, and that is probably where you went wrong with the grossly over-sized trinity....



Figure out your heat loss number, and let us know what you have for dhw and someone will make a recommendation...



Although keep in mind, I would rather have a contractor that installed the boiler he is familiar with that a contractor install something he is not familiar with because a board of guys says that is the one to buy....



Like I said earlier tt solos are nice, but you want a ttech that has gone through the training and knows the product....

icesailor

That's not what I was talking about:

,,,,,"In my experience, properly sized indirect's significanly outperform typical tank heaters. The combination of increased firing rate and reduced impact of hard water is a big win. For those with truly huge DHW loads, a supplementary tankless water heater will usually do the trick.",,,,,

That's not what I was talking about. In fact, you said my point. "A properly sized indirect significantly outperforms typical tank heaters".

I see HO's and the uninformed come here looking for a Mod/Con that only fires UP to 30,000 BTU's because that's what their heat loss. And they are connecting an indirect. 30 to 50 gallon tank type water heaters are usually 35.000 BTU input. Indirects are rated in GPM delivery that depends on a much higher hot water inlet. To get the rated output from the indirect, you need a lot of "Nuts" to get there.

Heating a building to keep it warm and comfortable is one thing and it is a sliding scale in what you need to do it. From nothing in the summer to a maximum on the coldest days. Answer to an irate woman with a hair full of soap that cold water won't remove. Tell her that you have the control set to "Priority". See where that gets you.

All I have ever said is that it is smart practice to consider the indirect as an important part of boiler sizing equations.

There was a post here in the last few days where someone was trying to make a MacGiver rig work better. He mentioned that his 80 gallon electric water heater was 9.0 KW. Have you ever seen a 9.0 KW (9,000 Watts) electric water heater that wasn't a special order, factory wired water heater? It sounded like a standard tank type storage water heater with two 4,500 elements without simultaneous running elements. The upper thermostat with the high temperature cut off won't handle 37 to 40 amps without blowing up or melting. Much less the normal 30 Amp breaker. So, that person is ASSUMING twice the output he is getting.

In heating, isn't a 20 degree Delta T the gold standard? In domestic hot water heating, you deal with 60 degree or more Delta T's. Which needs more energy. 20 degree Delta T or 60 degree Delta T.

panman

propane wall mount boiler

Thanks heat pro02920. Hard to find a tech that knows these propane condensing boilers really well. Several service men have been very general in there approach when working on mine!! Thanks

icesailor

Original Post:

If the comment was pointed to me, consider that the boiler was installed in 2005 (do I understand that correctly?) and it now throws an error code that no one can fix. WHY?

I would want to know why it throws this error code that is obviously wrong by the fact that they, the service person or the company can't figure it out. It has always been a personal thing with me about not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

If what you describe is truthful, and I have absolutely no reason to think that it isn't, if I were you, with that problem, knowing what I know, if someone tried to BS me with a tale like that, I'd laugh in their face. What i said about Judge Judy and her book, "Don't Pee On My Leg And Tell Me It's Raining".

Maybe there's a hole in the HX. Someone should be able to prove the hole is there. If I made an empirical proclamation that the boiler couldn't be fixed, and someone else came along and fixed it, The customer should be PO'ed. And what could I say?

If it ran right in the beginning, it should be able to make run again. You may want to replace it and that is fine. But don't replace it because someone can't fix it and has given you some lame excuse about why it won't run has to do with it being zero outside. Make them prove why. That's all I am saying. They have their troubleshooting all upside down. If it was being blamed on being too warm outside, I would sort of not think too much. But when it's too cold? Anyone here that can explain that to me, I'm all eyes. Knock yourself out. I'm waiting.

icesailor

Another point:

On this same forum (gas) on The Wall, there is a discussion of a problem with a Honeywell Igniter. Tim McIlwaine has some comments on a problem similar to yours that to me, revolve around combustion. Those thermal sensors have a resistance value that can be measured. Was it measured? If it is within specs, then the sensor was probably doing what it was supposed to do.

Maybe someone didn't go as far into the problem as they could have. Combustion issues can really throw things off. You may not get what I got out of Timmies discussion but there was something there that makes it worth reading. For someone.

I personally don't care if I am right. I just hate to be wrong and want to know why.

heatpro02920

Icesailer

what fun is fixing an eight year old boiler, replace that baby and save the bathwater for the new one, this is America....



I have pulled my hair out with Trinity units, I had one they sent me 2 identical boards for, with a note that said "one of these should work" ? On the other hand I have figured them all out, some did get changed out due to the customer just being fed up {between parts availability, cost of parts, and just plain ole' aggravation}. I will say you most likely need a board, I looked back in my service records because I remembered a customer with a similar problem, unit coded when ever it was really cold, worked OK in mild climate but when you really needed it it would quit... Disconnecting the ODS would fix the problem, and tech support told us it was the board, the customer paid and we never heard back, that is a lot better than the cost of a new unit...

Plumdog_2

Too much heat up the exhaust

is not what you want. If the on-board control is working, it will slow the firing rate so that doesn't happen. But it has to interpret the readings from the sensors to do so. There are sensors that read outgoing water temperature and exhaust temperature,and they can be checked easily with a digital ohmmeter. The Control will slow down the fan speed (and reduce the amount of fuel brought in) as needed to avoid overheating. Cleaning the Heat Exchanger is important, especially in between the tiny gaps between the coils. The combustion must be correct and an analyser must be used to get it right. Some factory cleaning instructions are nearly useless. I like the Trinity because of it's simplicity and initial price (extra pumping notwithstanding). That being said, for those that want something less finicky about flow rates I recommend Prestige.   

Plumdog_2

furthermore....

Have somebody check the outdoor reset temp compensation settings. I don't think it's possible to set too high...so I agree with that grouch Icesailor....you probably need a new  board. Good news! they are cheaper than the boards in other brands. 

SWEI

we appear to be talking about

the same thing using two slightly different languages.



At least 95% of the train wrecks I encounter are due to simple lack of understanding.  Basic human nature and basic laws of physics top the list.

panman

re- another point

Good point. Trinity techs told my furnace company that they needed to do a combusion test as a last step before trinity would get involved. That was 6 weeks ago. I called my furnace company yesturday and supposidly they are contacting me today. hopefully i don't have to dump a lot more money into the trinity, i am at 1/4 of a new furnace minus install already. Thanks for input- Peter

Aaron_in_Maine

Combustion

If your propane company does service on gas modcon boilers and takes this long just to do a combustion test get rid of them. They are hunting for a digital combustion analyzer which means they don't have one. Every tech working on high tech equipment should have one otherwise they re chasing their tale. I agree with Heatpro sounds like a board or outdoor sensor issue because the boiler is modulating up and getting too hot tripping the flue sensor. Probably the board cause this happens when it gets colder which means the outdoor sensor might be reading correctly.

panman

re-combustion

My furnace tech called this morning. Coming wednesday with another tech that sells trinity boilers. I told them that this visit should be on them!! They agreed and proceeded to tell me that my type of boiler (not brand) does not last more than 10-15years and i am on the latter!!! Is this true? Have they made improvement since my 2005 trinity was manufactured? Has the life expectancy of a wall mount propane condensing boiler improved. Thanks

Aaron_in_Maine

Good question

To be honest the oldest Giannoni boiler which is the type of heat exchanger in your boiler I have seen personally was installed in 2001 or 2002 I think. But I have also replaced that type of boiler after only 4 years but it was installed almost opposite the installation manual. In your case running radiant with low temps your boiler should last longer then say someone running high temp baseboard.

Zman

Combustion?

Of course you the boiler is oversized.

Yes, you would be better off with a smaller firetube boiler.

You would be crazy to toss out this boiler in the next 10 years.



You need to find a new service company. Period.

If they owned an analyzer and knew how to use it this problem would be solved.

The first thing they should have done is checked combustion and actual flue temp.

They still have not done this?

You may have a flow, sensor, or board issue as some folks have suggested. The actual flue temp and combustion must be diagnosed first.

There is a reason tech support won't continue with them.

You need to find someone who knows your boiler.

Carl

panman

Re- my location

Aaron, i just read this message. Very sorry for not getting back to you. If i cannot get things squared away through my furnace company, i might take u up on some diagnostic help. how familiar are you with these boilers? How many have you installed. What brand is the best in your exprience? I live in the Newport area. 20 minutes north of Waterville. Sorry again for missing your message!! Thanks Peter

Tom_133

Zman is correct

I second Zman in his comments. I have a few Ti150's out there with out a problem. Don't just toss the boiler, have a qualified guy come and do it right.

icesailor

Grouch:

Grouch?

The only thing that makes me grouchy is when I read stories like this one where someone doesn't even own a combustion analyzer. People work hard for their money. When someone rules that some piece of equipment needs to be replaced because someone can't fix it, just gets me.

Like this. I have a customer for years and he traded houses. The old one was electric heat and the new one has FHW, Oil. A Weil-McLain WOG-4 with a Beckett AFG. I hate them but this one was running fine during the time I was working there doing some plumbing. I went back another day to meet with owner. I noticed the boiler was on safety. I pointed it out to the owner and hit the reset button. It fired up perfectly and ran. The owner asked me if I would service it. There was a service tag from a burner tech on the boiler going way back to today. Out of professional courtesy, I told the owner to call him because it only needed to have the carbon cleaned from the head and the thing was running fine. It just needed annual service and you are the new owner.

I went back two weeks later to install an outside shower and the "service" consisted of ripping out the AFG and replacing it with a brand new Riello. The owner pays his bill immediately, on receipt. He got ripped off. THAT makes me grouchy.

heatpro02920

How long its going to last depends

on a lot of factors.... I have tossed trinity units that look brand new.. I am hoping these new mod cons that are out now will last at least 25 years, but its not likely.... I think you need a board but you need a tech out there that trinity will talk through figuring out...

Tim McElwain

Heatpro what is the

name of your company?

heatpro02920

Which one Tim?

LOL, I Have a few companies, Sure Fire mechanical, EBD Mechanical {Efficient By Design}, Spotlessduct.com, IM-scape, plus I own a real estate company for the rental properties, and I just sold my deli.



I tried to give you a call the week before last Tim, but didn't get through, I have 2 that I want to send for the gas classes, between busy seasons, which is normally end of August beginning of September for us...

Tim McElwain

Try me this week

at 401-437-0557 I will be in the office most of the week. At your convnenience would also like to meet you sometime seeing we are so close.

heatpro02920

Sounds good..

I will call you this week, I am actually installing 3 Rinnai units in a multi family off of Taunton Ave in east providence on wednesday I believe... That should be pretty close by you...

panman

ANSWER FROM Boiler Tech!!!

Ok heating help friends. Boiler tech that sells Trinity and other boilers similer to mine came yesturday. He said my 15-58 circulator pump was supposed to be a 26-99 and restricting the hot water just enough when boiler ramps up on cold days to trip sensor. He also turned my boiler temp down from 190 to 180. Question, i have 2 taco mixing blocks that are similar in specs to the 15-58. With the 26-99 circulator hooked up, will it add any heating advantage to my radiant on cold days? Do i really need taco mixing blocks with a modulating boiler? Thanks for your time in advance!!! Peter  PS. He also said my boiler was NOT oversized because of my 80 gallon Amtrol water heater. He said 138,000 btu's is needed to heat the 80 gallons when needed. just relaying the tech's message!!!!!!!!

heatpro02920

I need a picture of this

can you post a picture of the install please...



Of course its oversized for your heatload, now whether or not you need an 80 gallon indirect running at 190 degrees {on the boiler side} or not is up to you, I guees, to me it sounds oversized, but your tech is there Im not, and if you trust him and the fix works and you are warm and happy that is all that matters....

panman

re-pictures of boiler set up

Heatpro, I posted some photos a year ago when i was having the same problem but did not know it. The thread is in RADIANT heating under (Radiant heat loss because of pex placement. Scroll down and you will see my set up. Thanks

heatpro02920

WOW

OK, I couldn't read through all of it rite now, I just took a quick look at the pictures, it seems that you were having the same problem then as now?



I personally would never run all of that that way, I find people over complicate radiant heating systems, what exactly do you have for zones? looks like 5 low temp radiant zones {so you have 5 thermostats total all low temp radiant? And this is a combi nti so you are using it for dhw also?



I just did {in december} a house that someone installed a Buderus g215-5 on 1 hydroair unit, 3 zones of radiant, 2 zones of baseboard, indirect water heater, and a modine water/air unit.... Since it had been installed it never worked rite, and the Out door sensor had been disabled. BUT the piping was so confusing I honestly dont know how it worked at all, my tech first went for the service call and called me to come and talk to the homeowners to see if we even wanted to get involved, they had already called 3 other companies in the last year... The problem was it wasnt rite from day one.....

I ended up telling the customer I will fix it but its going to be like reinstalling it.... At the end I ended up having 5 mixing valves, 2 zone valves, 3 circulators, and a pile of copper and pex left over, I ran a primary loop with an alpha circ, I pulled off 1 loop for each high temp zones then one loop for a plate exchanger with its own primary piping setup that fed the 3 radiant zones, the system took up 1/2 the space and now works with no mixing or injection valves, they were skeptical in the beginning but I went back to install a few electrostatic filters I ordered for their hydroairs and they were very happy with how everything was working....

Yours doesn't look that bad, they ran 3 zones and 2 zones off the 2 rmb1 units with what looks to be taco 570 zone valves? ALL with 3/4" copper tubing.... I think you would have been better served with a 1 1/4" primary loop with a better circulator feeding a circulator for each zone coming off that primary, them RMB's are almost $1000 {I did a system with 3 of them a while back BUT NOT ON A MOD CON, thats insane}... You can probably sell them rmbs and fund changing it to a better setup... Ill bet your boiler is set for 180degree high limit, when it should be much less......



If your problem is indeed the setup and not the unit itself {which surprises me because I have had some bad luck with NTI units, the combi specifically} it could indeed be it needs a more powerful circ to remove the heat, BUT I would have the tech install some gauges also, I would never do a job like that with no gauges, I honestly would have installed at least {from what I see} at least a dozen temp gauges in there, lol...



Did the tech change your pump? I cant imagine that 3/4 pipe flowing much through and them restrictive 570 zone valves, and all that radiant.... just not a good setup...



I would get through this season, then sell them pump blocks zone valves, and the trinity on ebay, and buy a TT solo and a rinnai tankless, pipe the system rite and be done with this headache, lol... 5 bumble bee circs and a 5 zone taco circ relay.... But that is easy for me to say, since I would install my own myself.... Just saying what I would do if it were me, also keep in mind I am not a fan of NTI at all.... and I can not wrap my mind around why you have 2 rmbs on this system, were they there before the nti on a cast iron boiler feeding other high temp zones??? I don't get it, but I'm not very smart so its not the first time...

panman

RE WOW

Heat pro, thanks for taking the time to look at the old post with my furnace pics. The NTI is NOT a combi. I have an 80 gallon DHW tank. The unit was installed NEW as you see it.All Radiant heating. Why they put in the Taco RMB's are mystery to me because of my modulating boiler. I will use them until 1 craps out and then both are going!!!! I will set up my boiler or a new boiler with outdoor reset and all 5 zones can run off that. I have a jetted tub and 3 bathrooms so 80 gallons is needed. oh well, live and learn. Thanks

PS. I have not heard great things about tankless water heaters. many parts= Maintanance and money.

heatpro02920

Don't believe all of what you hear about tankless units...

You obviously have a nice house judging by the sq ft and the money you spent on your heating system, plus the jet tub... I will tell you this, I would not heat domestic water with anything but a tankless, I own an HVAC company and can put any dhw heater I want in it. My house is over 4000sq ft {we built our dream house this is our last home} and I have an ru98i in my house, I have tankless water heaters in all my properties... I have a mod/con hanging right next to it, and I could easily throw a tank next to it, but I wont... We don't have natural gas, since we are in the woods, so propane is my main source, although we have electric, oil and coal also. Soon I am going to finish the geothermal addition. but propane is the main system, and it gets expensive to heat hot water, but with the rite shower heads and a good tankless, I only spend about $30 a month to make hot water for the entire house with 2 teenage boys and a fancy' wife ,lol....



The people who had bad luck with rinnais are 99% user error, either bad water, bad install, bad maintenance, ect... I have installed 100's of them and can tell you they have the best lifespan and history out of all the units I have installed.... I tell my customers, "if you don't like the unit, Ill come and take it out and refund 100% of your investment {you plug up the hole}" and I never had to pull one out...



Heating your DHW is probably what confused the original installer, take my advice, next time around, try a tankless... Get a mod con and run the system the rite way with out any mixing... let the boiler and the ODR do all the work, and dont make the boiler work year round, let a tankless heat the dhw....