How Would I Disconnect this Radiator?

numberforty1

I need to leave the ball valves closed to keep steam from coming out, but how do I disconnect this radiator from this copper pipe?



Any help much appreciated.

ALIGA

is the valve upside down?

looks like you may have to cut it, if there is not a union installed.

numberforty1

What is a "union"?

It would seem that I could disconnect it the same way that they connected it to begin with, but I can't figure out how that is. Cutting seems extreme, would there be no way to replace the valves if I wanted to then?

BobC

has to be cut out

That radiator was soldered into place, if you want to remove it the pipes have to be cut and then capped off. Attached is a picture of a copper union which could have been used to hook this up; In steam work we usually used steel pipe not copper.



Bob

numberforty1

Crap

Cutting sounds terrible, what can you use to cut pipe sitting under a radiator like this?



thanks

BobC

Small tubing cutter?

They do make a small tubing cutter that might work. If there isn't enough room to swing that then it's time to get out a hack saw, it would be easier to do it from under the floor if you have access. When the pipes are cut, you will have to solder caps on the pipes.



Bob

Hap_Hazzard

A plasma cutter would work great.

Yeah, I'm kidding.



See if you can find a tubing cutter like the one pictured. I'm sure it will work on the smaller pipe, and if you can do that you can probably move it enough to undo the other end without cutting.



Could you please take a couple of close-ups of the pipe connections? I'm not totally convinced you need to cut, but I can't see exactly how it's connected.

numberforty1

Closer Picture

Here you go Hazzard - there is a large hexanut, but I can't really tell what its holding and I'll have to get a new wrench for something that size.  Don't really see any soldering, what do you think?



thanks

Zman

Hex Bushing

You won't get anywhere turning the bushing. You have no choice but to cut the pipe. A hack saw would be the cheapest way to do that.

Carl

Hap_Hazzard

He must have sweated the elbows last.

I think if you heat the elbows while lifting up on the pipe the copper will bend enough to get the joint apart. That's how I'd attack it. You'll have to do it with the heat off, of course.

Pumpguy

A conventional

frame type hacksaw is probably too big to fit under the radiator.  If so, they make close quarter hacksaws.  These kind of resemble a knife where the handle is clamped to the hacksaw blade in a straight line. 

Paul48

Hmmm

What did the landlord say, when you asked him?

numberforty1

If I Cut It, How Easy is Re-attaching?

Ha, I wish the landlord cared enough to say anything.  I just need to be able to hook it back up after cutting it...I don't suppose a J.B. Weld would suffice.



I found this little guy, much easier than a hacksaw don't you think?

Hap_Hazzard

Perfect

I was looking for a picture of one of those but couldn't find one. I hear they work fine on copper.



No, JB Weld won't do it. If I were you I'd pick up a couple of those copper unions like Bob posted the picture of. I don't know if you have one where you live, but where I live the Sears Hardware store sells fittings like this for a lot less than Home Cheapo. Don't forget to pick up some soldering paste.

BobC

Different sizes

Looks like you can get them up to 1" and maybe higher.



http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-autocut-tubing-cutter



Bob

numberforty1

No Torch

Thanks, that all sounds good but I'm not comfortable soldering anything except guitar cables, and I don't want to buy a torch for it...how about those solderless copper connectors that just screw on?

nicholas bonham-carter

A bad experience?

I think this disconnection could turn into a nightmare, especially as you wish to reconnect the radiator at the end of your lease.

This project requires piping skills which you do not have.

Is there no way of convincing the landlord to fix the problem, especially as the fix would result in lower operating costs for him?--NBC

Hap_Hazzard

Sharkbite?

I don't know of any screw-on solderless connectors for copper pipe, but the are push-on pex connectors that work with copper. I don't know how they'd work for steam, but since copper isn't even recommended for steam, It doesn't sound like a good idea.

MTC

Do NOT use sharkbites

Take that as both a general statement as well as a steam statement. Their failure rate is too high under normal use, let alone high temp. There are plastic parts inside those that will melt and you will have major problems if you put it on steam.



Maybe a compression fitting, but def not a sharkbite.

MTC

deleting double post...

numberforty1

Landlord is useless I'm afraid

Ha, well, the installer of the system didn't have the right skills either, so I imagine I can make it equal or better.  Installing a compression fitting doesn't seem too difficult.

Paul48

IF

If closing the valves doesn't produce the desired results,what makes you think that cutting the pipes will?

numberforty1

Right You Are

Now this is a good question, and the only thing still holding me back.  There are two radiators making these noises, and they are along the same back wall of the house (in separate rooms).  They make the same noise at the same time, so I know they are both transporting the same sound energy from some point in the system prior to the point where their pipes separate from each other. 



The tricky thing is knowing where exactly the vibration is occurring.  Best I can tell, most of the sound is coming from the ducts of the radiator, hence my desire to disconnect and see if that is indeed the case.  It doesn't seem like a few inches of pipe would transmit and amplify the sound as much as a whole radiator.  But even if it does, it would be a lot easier to cover just those little pipes with some sound absorbing material.  If anyone has thoughts on this I'd love to hear them.

BobC

Before cutting pipes

Owings Corning makes a 700 series acoustical insulation (2X4 ft panels) that comes in one or two inch thickness, it is specifically designed for the control of room resonances. It is very good at low frequencies and that is where the bulk of your problem is. This might be able to muffle your problem enough so you don't have to start cutting pipes.



I would explore this option before going down a path that could be problematic to say the least.



Bob

SWEI

another 704 fan?

just curious...

numberforty1

That Was My First Thought

It's actually higher frequencies (a metallic rattling), but yes sound insulation was my first thought. It is expensive though and cannot be returned once I have cut it all up to fit.  The way the radiator is up against the wall and window sill also makes it difficult to soundproof completely, and there's no promise that it will block all the sound.



So, what problems arise from cutting the pipe or connecting them with compression fittings?

jumper

connecting copper

I'm told that ProPress high temperature fittings are available. Another way to connect without solder is with stuff like ComStar copperlock. The manufacturer claims it's fine for steam.

BobC

703 actually

I used 703 to build 4" thick acoustic panels for my living room, makes the sound a lot better by controlling room nodes. They do a great job of swallowing low frequency romm resonances.



My EZgas  on my Smith boiler works well but it has some combustion roar I want to muffle so I going to get more of these panels and baffle in the exhaust stack, leaving an opening for the double swing draft regulator.



Bob

BobC

703 actually

sorry - double post