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Triangle tube prestige mod con?

heatpro02920
heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
Hey guys, wondering if any of the pros out there have any thoughts on these, heat exchanger looks just like utica and dunkirks, but I wa told TT was the first to make it and uses better Stainless? It was a tt rep that said that soooooo...



I normally use Buderus GB's but this customer I have wants a S/S exchanger so I am forced to look elsewhere than Buderus...



Im looking at the Prestige Solo 175 which is around $4000 out the door my cost after tax, so if someone has another idea for a mod con that in comparable let me know, and let me know what you think of the TT solo....



PS the unit is running 2 hydro airs, my heat loss shows I need around 145K BTU for the building, the hot water is done with a tankless heater already installed, this is a propane home....

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,617
    My Favorite

    The TT boiler is fantastic. They developed the heat exchanger that is now used by Lochinvar and others (I think the dunkirk is different). They then upgraded it a bit when they switched suppliers.They trimax controllers are very intuitive and the boiler requires little maintenance. I don't think the TT and Buderus are even in the same category. I don't like aluminum exchangers and the GB series have had more than there share of "glitches". Buderus support is still in denial.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    Thanks zman

    I have done a little research and it looks like a good unit, I am going to pick up 2 of these monday, Im going to try one at my own house also {I'll take my trusted gb down for a while and hang the tt up, see how it goes}... Thanks for the input..



    Any installation advice, installing with 2 hydroairs, primary secondary, Use 009 and then probably use 007 delta T circulators for each zone....
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    primary/secondary

    the low head loss of the firetube HX will often allow you to direct pump them.  What is the head loss on the hydroair circuits?  I'd probably use a smart circ and zone valves.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    Direct pipe?

    Wow its been a while since I've done that, lol.. The head loss isnt much at all, one air handler is in the attic 25 feet above the unit {straight shot} and the other is in the basement with the unit about 40 feet from it, all piped with 3/4 pex maybe a 1/2 dozen elbows total.... I haven't actually added it up yet.... They are both 3 ton first company units about 5 years old...
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    direct pump/pipe

    Take a look at p.92 in the manual.  Minimum flow at high fire is 8 GPM for the 175, boiler HX loses about 1-1.5 feet of head at that flow rate.



    Is the BumbleBee shipping yet?   This would be a perfect application for one. 
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    I never seen the BB for sale?

    Ill ask my supply house monday about availability on the bumble bee, it would be rite about where I want to be with 15 and 15 for $170 or so wont be bad since I think pay that for the Delta T 007's...



    Going over everything Im not sure how secure I am piping a mod con direct? I know it says low head loss but the rep told me to use a 0011, that makes me think I need it lol...



    I would much rather pipe it direct since its a less expensive install and may be more efficient... I have always PS piped mod cons and large systems with a lot of big zones....



    What would the pros and cons be here?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    direct or not?

    One of the things I really like about these low loss firetube heat exchangers is that they tolerate a range of piping layouts.  With properly sized emitters, they can be direct pumped at high delta-T to maximum efficiency.  They work as drop-in replacements for conventional boilers of almost any age.  They also serve as key components in cutting edge complex systems.
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,726
    With 3/4 piping

    I would primary secondary that for sure.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Cart before the horse

    What's the output of the air handlers? That determines the required flow, and the required flow determines the size of the pipe.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    edited February 2013
    55K BTU ea. at 190 Off the top of my head?

    Paul they are both 3 ton first company units..
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Requires

    At a 20* delta t that would require 1". A little shy of your heat loss, no?
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    Not enough coil in the house

    I explained this, but try to convince the customer when it has been working for a few years....
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Houston.... We've Got A Problem?

    What did they have for a boiler? How well will a mod/con work under those conditions?
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    My mistake....

    I just had my morning meeting with my service manager and I am wrong, the buildings heat loss is 145K, but the space heated by the 2 air handlers and this boiler is 90K, I should have caught this because I measured the duct work for the other side of the addition and the basement....



    Sorry about that guys, I have so many numbers in my head at one time sometimes they get rattled around... I signed 9 proposals this morning they all seem to melt together after a while...



    So to recap, this TT is going to have to heat 2780 sq feet, 1st floor air handler 3 ton, 2nd floor aid handler 3 ton, heat loss is under 90K BTU. I don't like that the units are piped with 3/4" pecs, but its what is there, I could change the first floor units piping but not the second with out major construction, obviously...
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    just curious

    If the building loss is 145k, but these coils need 90K, what provides the other 55k and where does it go?



    Each coil is rated at 55k -- how is the "under 90k" allocated between them?



    I snipped the image below from a FirstCo data sheet.  I can't find a cite, but I'm guessing they assume a 20F ∆T.  If you increase that to 30F, it will drop the average temp by 5F but should allow 3/4" PEX to squeak by (especially if the upper floor has the lower loss.)
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Too Big

    The 175 is way too big. The 110 is better suited to that house.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    Shes installed...

    I did it today, started on a bad note because I picked up oil based primer for the back board that took forever to dry, but I got it done...



    Went with a tt solo 110lp, unit started rite up, easy to program... I used 0010 for primary and 007 DT's for the hydro airs, I set the delta T at 20, then went up to 30 and it seemed better... Runs very good, got the house up to temperature pretty fast, I am going to install another 110lp when their addition is finished for that side.... The home owner was impressed with the unit, and between this boiler and the 90+ Rinnai they have they should be pretty efficient... Now if it lasts for 30 years, they may get their moneys worth....



    I hope these things last for the long haul, I just bought a solo 175 for my own house, but I change my boiler when ever I feel like it... I also use Rinnai units for dhw {I know a few guys don't like them, but I install tons of them and don't have problems with them, they work and well, I have one in a rental house of mine that is 8 years old, never had to even clean the exchanger, Im waiting to see how long it lasts with out touching it}.... And Im going to start pushing these, I took some pics of the 110 I did, and I will have some pics when mine is up {doing it all by myself a little here and there at night, on a new wall so I don't have to take the gb down until its done, maybe...} so Ill start putting together pics for my sales binders....



    Anyway thanks to all for your help, Im glad I went with the smaller unit at the customers house since it heated it rite up, but I went with the larger unit at my house, my heat loss is rite in the middle of the 110 and 175, it seems like they are missing a size in there... I don't mind it being oversized but a 120K btu output model would be nice in the lineup....
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited February 2013
    0010 primary

    Seems like a LOT of flow for ~100k output through that HX.  We typically use a 0010 or a Series 100 as a 399k boiler pump.



    Minimum flow rate at maximum fire on the 110 is 5 GPM, at which point the HX has only 2 feet of head.  What's your boiler ∆T look like?







    Glad the system side working better on 30F ∆T.  35F might even fly...
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,617
    0010?

    Did you pull out the 15-58 that came with the boiler? I have been running the stock 15-58 circ on low and even with a spring check in line I cannot get that delta T. How did you throttle it? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    15-58

    on low setting Is too big for most systems IME.  We change them out.  This is why I don't like boilers with internal pumps.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    Change of plans

    We had a dilemma, they wanted the boiler mounted in the new edition {where all of the equipment is going to be and where the gas lines are}, and the old boiler was in the main house {where all the zones return and supply}. When they built the edition the contractor ran 2-1" pecs lines from the old boiler room to the new boiler room. Now all the walls are there, we originally were told by the home owner the boiler was going to be in the same boiler room, and the next boiler was going in the addition... When I got to the job the contractor set me straight, boiler in new edition and old boiler room is going to be remodeled...

    So they thought the 4 3/4" pipes from the air handlers could be tee'd into 2 1" pipes {makes sense if you have no idea what you are doing}...



    So I ended up using the 1" pecs as the primary and mounting the secondary circulators in the old boiler room.. But when I explained it to the CSR from TT they said to upsize the pump....



    I went back by tonight to replace the thermostats {didnt have any with my company logo on them with me, so I had to grab them from the shop}... And all looks well, unit is running good, While I was there both zones were running since I tested them after I threw the tstats on, and it has no trouble getting the returns hot from a cold start {they turn the house down to 55 during the day and got home rite before I got there....



    Time will tell, hopefully these TT's are as reliable as the buderus, because I just took a deposit on another one for the end of February {waiting for their income tax to come} Its going to be an excellence 110 because it is replacing a oil fired with tankless... Normally I would have sold them either a GB and a Rinnai or a GB and smart tank {about the same price, just preference of the customer, I personally like the rinnai more than an indirect}....



    I, not sure how guys are pricing these TT's, I priced the excellence at $10,200 {including gas service which is $850, and they should get around $900 back...}?
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,617
    I get it..

    I am still suspicious of the 0010 sizing, but I get it.

    I don't know anyone who has put in a triangle tube and gone back to buderous. I don't believe they are in the same category.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    TT boilers

    Get factory trained as soon as you are able.  Two days, nearly free net cost.  Once you have it, you get fantastic pricing on extended warranties for residential jobs.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    They advertise low loss, but recommend monster circs?

    They advertise low loss, but recommend monster circs? I got a 175 solo for my house and they are saying 0011, so I called the rep and he said yes, 0011 get as much primary gpm as possible????? If there is low loss why power that monster circulator?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Actually

    That makes more sense to me, rather than running a big delta t on the primary, which has been discussed on other threads. This way, I think the boiler would be much more responsive to system demands and changes.Does that seem logical to anyone else?
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    it works...

    I tend to trust technical support, although I dont know why they want a check valve on the primary side with no dhw?????
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