Possible Substitution for Radiator?

SusanC

One room in my house needs very little heat because it gets almost enough from the adjoining bathroom sunrad and because it does not have a lot of outside wall.  It has a large radiator, which is the first off one of the 2 mains.  The room was fine in the imperfect old days when the supply valve could almost but not quite completely be shut off (I know the reasons why that is not permissible).  When the new boiler was installed several years ago and other changes, e.g. venting, were made, a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) was installed on that radiator.  Several TRV modifications have been made but this is not a suitable solution for the peculiarities of my house and system and I am not going to fool with TRVs any more.  To give a couple of problem TRV examples, even if shut entirely off, if the system has to run a long time, e.g. power outage, eventually the steam "breaks through" and the radiator heats up and the room is too hot.  Otherwise (another example) it is not possible to find a setting that leads to correct room temperature because no 2 days are created equal and there is either no heat or too much heat.  I know there are lots of TRV things that could be tried -- I'm not going to try them.  What the room needs is for the radiator to be removed and replaced by the equivalent of a pipe running from the supply valve to an air vent.  Can this be done successfully in a one-pipe steam system?  If so how high up should the pipe extend to the air vent; what angle should the pipe have?  Will this end up blowing condensate out into the world along with the inevitable accompanying problems?   Can anyone suggest a solution?  What the room needs is the world's tiniest radiator -- and I mean tiny.

Rod

Radiator Problems

Hi- I can understand your frustration though it sounds as though something is not quite right as the TRV should be able to take care of your problem. Post a picture of the offending TRV and maybe we can come up with a solution. Question:- What is the maximum pressure that your system operates? It should be 2 PSI or less. Higher than that causes problems and is a waste of fuel.

- Rod

Jamie Hall

Hopefully

when you say "TRV" you mean a thermostatically controlled vent, not a thermostatically controlled valve.  A TR valve won't work properly, if at all, on a one pipe system.  A TR vent certainly should.



One can install a smaller radiator, of course, or even a short section of fin tube.  It should be sized according to your worst case heating requirement in that room -- and from the sound of it, should be provided with a TR vent.



I can't see what purpose a pipe running to a vent would have.  If you want no heat in there, just remove the radiator completely and cap the pipe.

SusanC

Radiator substitution

Thanks but I'm not continuing on the TRV route.  I want to get a little heat but not through a TRV or the big radiator.  I need either the tiniest radiator or a short pipe, preferably the equivalent of a short pipe.

SusanC

TR whether valve or vent

At least the Danfoss TRV is called a Thermostatic Radiator Valve and is installed together with a vent so is a valve used with a vent on the vent side of the radiator.  Tell me about the fin tube; that sounds interesting.

As for the purpose of a pipe or for that matter a fin tube, it's to get a little heat to the room.  Remember that all was well (heatwise) when a tiny bit of steam got to the radiator so it was the tiniest bit warm.  And as for fin tube or pipe, I don't want any TR's -- just a vent which I would need because no steam will enter the pipe or I presume fin tube without some venting.

Jamie Hall

Well...

If the TRvalve were installed between the vent opening on the radiator and the vent... it should work.  Although there are thermostatically controlled vents which are made for that purpose, and might work better.



Fin tube is available in various sizes and lengths, and is simply a length of pipe which has, as the name suggests, fins on it to increase the available radiating area.  I don't have BTU or EDR ratings for it handy; hopefully someone else will see this thread and chime in on that.  One would install it just like a short horizontal radiator with some pitch to the inlet, so condensate will drain, and a vent on the far end.

Jamie Hall

Well...

If the TRvalve were installed between the vent opening on the radiator and the vent... it should work.  Although there are thermostatically controlled vents which are made for that purpose, and might work better.



Fin tube is available in various sizes and lengths, and is simply a length of pipe which has, as the name suggests, fins on it to increase the available radiating area.  I don't have BTU or EDR ratings for it handy; hopefully someone else will see this thread and chime in on that.  One would install it just like a short horizontal radiator with some pitch to the inlet, so condensate will drain, and a vent on the far end.

AlexR

elegant or cheap?

A quick and dirty solution, though not an elegant one for the long term, might be to cover the radiator with a blanket or wooden box (think radiator cover with few/no holes).  It'd be easier to undo if you change your mind and perhaps easier to size than a new radiator. 

Hap_Hazzard

I can see why there might be a problem.

When the room gets cold enough for the TRV to open, the radiator has to fill and start heating before it turns off again. Some steam will continue to enter as the steam contracts, and then the radiator continues to give off all the heat it absorbed long after the TRV has stopped calling for heat.

SusanC

Re: blanket

A long time ago I tried the blanket method; all I achieved was pretty much melting the blanket and an overheated room.  The radiator already has an enclosure.  Trust me, the radiator has to be off or with a tiny trickle of steam through the supply valve which is verboten in a steam system.

Awhile ago I responded to one of Jamie's duplicate entries but the answer didn't add to the thread -- must be a malfunction in the thread related to the duplicate entry.  I will try a general thread response and see if that gets included in the thread. 

SusanC

Response to Jamie and Question for All

Awhile ago I responded to Jamie but the response didn't get incorporated in the thread; I think there was a bit of thread malfunction because Jamie's entry appeared as a duplicate so maybe responses to at least 1 of the entries won't work.  Anyway, thanks for the fin tube info.  I am worried that, even with proper pitch and a small vent, condensate will come spitting out of a vent on a pipe or fin tube; steam is going to get to that pipe or tube in a hurry; it's first and early off one of the 2 mains.  I can envision a real steam/condensate conflict.  Any suggestions?  As for the TRV, according to Danfoss and documentation, it was made exactly for the intended purpose.

Steamhead

What pressure is the system running?

if the pressure is too high, it can overcome a closed TRV and make the radiator heat up. Or, it can push steam into the radiator by compressing the air inside of it, even though the TRV remains closed. Also, do you have proper main vents that will get the steam to the ends of the mains quickly?



A long time ago I worked on an apartment building where they were trying to use adjustable radiator vents to balance the system. This wasn't working. The first thing I did was drastically increase the main vent sizes. This solved the uneven steam distribution problems but we still had radiators heating when the adjustable vents were closed completely.



The solution was to replace the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat. This limited the system pressure to less than a pound, and the radiators with closed vents remained cold.



With steam, sometimes the symptom and the actual problem are in two different places.

Hap_Hazzard

2-pipe

I don't know if this would be possible, but I thought I'd throw it out and let the pros here comment on whether it would even work.



If you could run a condensate pipe out of the other end of this radiator or a smaller one--I'm thinking maybe a small Burnham BaseRay panel or something similar--then you'd be able to throttle the supply pipe to your heart's content because the condensate won't be trying to get out the same side that the steam is trying to come in. It would require taking a drip from the radiator directly to the wet return, so if the wet return doesn't run under this room, it's not an option.

SusanC

System pressure, TRV's, etc.

Hi Steamhead.  Several years ago when replacing the boiler and before, I was on the Wall a lot and got a lot of answers to my questions from you and others and Dan's books.  Thanks.  My system breaks at 1.5 psi and makes at 0.5 using a 4 psi vaporstat; that's the best this system is going to do (at least with me).  We're venting with batches (tech. term) of Gorton 1's.  I am giving up on the TRV idea; it just isn't going to do it (at least I'm not going to do it).  Can you think of any pipe equivalent idea that won't have a condensate problem?  I only need a little heat (in the old days the very slightly leaky supply valve did the trick and I know why one doesn't do that).   If there isn't a relatively easy pipe type solution, I will just turn off the supply valve or remove the radiator.  By the way my vaporstat is the subject of a thread called L408A 1157.  Any ideas there re: my vaporstat behavior -- it's probably a wearing out vaporstat or the leveling issue but thought I'd ask anyhow.  Based on what I read, I dread the non-mercury vaporstats.

malex

Don't do it

It is not a good idea to mix cast iron rads with fin tube as they cool off at very different rates. Someone replace a radiator in my house with a fin tube convector and it is the black sheep of my system. It gets hot very quick and cools of way before all other rads creating very uneven heatin, just what you want to avoid.

nicholas bonham-carter

Pressure talk

You say the pressure breaks at 1.5, and makes at .5. Can you say that this pressure is verified by an appropriate gauge? Why not see if you can lower it , if you know what it is.



Even large multi-storey building can be served by one ounce per floor, plus a couple for the pot.--NBC

Mark N

EDR

What is the EDR of the existing rad? Why not buy the smallest rad you can get and just use a very slow vent like a Gorton #4. Also I read about your vaporstat issue. Is your boiler oversized? If so how much.

SusanC

Still looking for radiator substitution

I wouldn't mind uneven heat to this room; a little uneven heat would do it; this room holds heat.  I still have the question (which was and is my question): would a pipe (cast iron with a vent possibly work or would it always run into a condensate problem?  If the world's smallest available radiator is the functioning equivalent of 1 small length of pipe, that wouold be OK

Vaporstat responders, please keep in mind that the only thing that has changed in my system, including but not limited to venting, pressure, size of boiler, etc., is the vaporstat behavior.

Pressure people:  Yes I have 2 gauges of different sensitivity that agree.  If I lower the pressure more, I will short cycle a lot; I'm keeping 1. and 0.5 (as long as the vaporstat will do that most of the time)

Size of boiler:  If anything it's a little bit underfired

Bear in mind, I'm not going with a TRV; I'm turning off the radiator supply valve or removing radiator if a simple pipe or equivalent world's smallest radiator solution will not work.

Thanks for all your suggestions; I really would like to know more about the pipe possibility.

Mark N

Pipe Rad

Of course a length of pipe will work as a rad. They use to use pipe to build pipe coils. I think a piece of pipe with a cap and very small vent would not look good. They make rads as small as 4 sections. You state your boiler is undersized slightly, then how are building enough pressure to trip the vaporstat. My system is almost perfectly matched and I've never seen more than 2 oz of pressure unless I force it high by turning off all the rad valves to test where my pressuretrol will trip out at.

Noel

pipe radiator

TRVents will allow steam to enter for the entire cycle, which is why the huge radiator doesn't stop heating. After they close on temperature, they prevent the steam from entering on the NEXT cycle, which doesn't prevent overheating. I think the pipe idea is a good one, if it isn't too short. The dripped, two pipe radiator idea is the best yet. Without a wet return, a false waterline could do the same job, if there is space for it. It acts like a sink trap, and still would need a vent at the radiator (pipe). It could tie back into the supply riser.



Noel

SusanC

Pipe Solution

Noel,

Thanks very much.  How short is too short or better, how long is a good length?  I don't mind if it looks ugly because I can leave the old radiator enclosure there and enough heat will still get beyond it.  What is a good angle for the pipe?  Although the 2 pipe dripped radiator idea sounds good, I've learned to disrupt the old pipes as little as possible so I would try the non-dripped pipe.

BobC

Throw a blanket over it.

If you throw a blanket over that radiator, very little heat should escape. It's cheap and easy, try it and see how it works.



If it already has an enclosure just block up the vent holes and that should have a similar effect.



Bob

Noel

length

Any length will give you some heat, pitch it about a 1/4" per foot back to the supply valve. It depends on how little heat you want to throw. You could try the width of the enclosure, to start.

nicholas bonham-carter

Small room

Even though this radiator is the first off the main, it should not get steam before the other radiators have been filled, assuming you have good main venting.a slow radiator vent on that one like a hoffman 40 would slow it down.

Your substitute pipe radiator could be vertical, with the vent at the top, and a full-port ball valve at the bottom, replacing the old steam valve.

Try to check the main venting first. You should see 2 ounces, or lees during the venting phase from cold on your gauge.--nbc

icesailor

How big is small:

How big is this radiator?

I've seen some really small radiators in my time. I recently saw one in a house that I thought was a joke. It was a column radiator with no more than three sections. The size of this radiator was so small that no one would ever bother building a cover for it.

I'm not a steam expert. What I know I learned here and from the one customer I have that has a lot of steam process piping with "issues" that I have resolved. What steam there is in the isolated location where I work, is done by others who know far more about steam than I do. Or they think they do.  So they rip it out and get an airhead to replace it with scorched air. But I do know about hot water and it is the same medium, just in a different state. Something you said though that makes me respond. The radiator is the first on the circuit and gets hot. Someone else stated that if vented properly, all the air should ve vented at the same time. Maybe you need to check the venting and maybe it isn't proper in the original install. Or maybe you can make the far end vent first. But I can't imagine that you can't get a salvaged radiator that is much smaller than the one you have. From what you describe that you want to do,  I would consider it a real PITA to install and have it work any better than it does now.

I know that this has been going on a long time, and I'm not trying to tell you anything. Trust me when I say that I think you know more about steam than anyone I deal with where I work.

But we that do this for a living have a different problem than you do. When we run into a problem and fall down the rabbit hole, WE have to claw our way out. That's how we get our experience. You have the choice of never falling down the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole that gives us our experience.

I can't believe that you can't find a really small radiator somewhere. It will work far better than a pipe.

IMO.

SusanC

Pipe sounds good

Noel,

Once again, thanks.  And I assume you feel there will not be a condensate/steam conflict problem with a small enough vent?

SusanC

blanket

Take a look at my blanket response to Alex

Noel

Not unless..

you vent it too fast....



Pipe is like fin tube on the inside, so this article would apply...



https://sites.google.com/site/steamheating/fintube

Hap_Hazzard

Pipe

A piece of pipe doesn't have as much surface area available to radiate heat as a radiator or convector, so it will not condense as much steam, so there will be very little steam entering or condensate exiting.

Steamhead

Noel!

Good to hear from ya- how ya been?

SusanC

Rabbit Holes -- Philosophically speaking

The homeowners' dilemma is that they have only one rabbit hole.  When a mistake is made or there is a problem, the homeowner can drown in that hole.  I have recently found that out when having some work done on the outside of the house totally unrelated to heating/cooling.  And some people who do things for a living (even those who in general do things very well) run or at least zigzag like rabbits when their work leads to a rabbit hole fall (especially when the problem is not clearcut) rather than clawing their way out of the hole.  You, at least, can seek solace in the holes you've avoided and have or can acquire the knowledge to eventually escape the hole you've fallen into.

Hap_Hazzard

Burnham BaseRay

I can't help thinking a small BaseRay panel (you can get them as short as 18") would be ideal here. They only have 3/4" tappings, but a 3' unit would only have 8.2 ft² EDR. They're cast iron, so the temperature wouldn't fluctuate as much as a fin-tube, and they're only about 10" tall and 2½" deep.

Noel

Pretty well, Frank.

How are you doing? Not much new in my world.



How's business?

icesailor

Rabbit Holes:

The consumer has The Google, the Internet, and forums like this one.

I find at my age that it isn't what you know, but the BS you can throw. No one likes to be wrong. Including myself. Some make mistakes and aren't interested in finding out they were wrong and learning by their mistakes. Like the person who was only wrong, once in his life. The time he thought he was wrong, come to find out he was right. I'm not that guy. But I know a few.

Whatever one needs for information is out there.  If you don't know about something, go find out about it.There are plenty of people that know what they are doing. There are far more that don't.  I find that education is like a pyramid. What you learn in the beginning is easy and you can learn is a lot. The farther up you move, the harder it is to find the pearls. You look where you can find them.

And I stay out of the rabbitt hole.

Steamhead

Pretty good

thanks to this site ;-)



Gonna try to come to Mad Dog's Big Ugly?

Steamhead

How about

posting a pic of the existing radiator? This might give us a better idea of what might work there. 

Noel

Doubt it

Not this time, I've got a bunch of stuff going on, but it depends on the timing.

icesailor

Curiousity:

Curious,

Will a Burnham 9A base-ray with a 3/4" opening work on single pipe steam? Aren't they usually on two pipe steam so the condense can run out the other end?

I've never connected one as steam, only hot water.



http://www.antiqueplumbingandradiators.com/plain_radiators_2.html

Hap_Hazzard

2-pipe on a one-pipe system

If you need an 8-foot panel or more you need to run the condensate out the other end, but you can do that on a one-pipe system as long as you can run a separate drip line all the way to the wet return.

Paul48

?

Is the radiator steam only, or steam/water? Question for the steam pros......If the latter, how would the radiator heat if a top tapping was used for the vent?

SusanC

one more philosophical entry

I, of course do try to educate myself on house and heat related matters as evidenced by my presence in this forum.  The problem is I still do not have the background, experience and expertise in any homeowner matters that the professionals do -- far from it.  In addition there are loads of information sources but the Internet, Google and other sources also have a lot of misinformation and often enough the novice can't tell the difference.  I realize consumers can be a real pain, especially when they think they know more than they do but remember that we have the disadvantage of incomplete knowledge and sometimes faulty information.  It's not an easy world on either side of the non-rabbit-proof fence .