Triangle Tube Solo 110 and Smart 80

Jim27

short cycle twin 110s vs twin 175s

How concerned should I be about short cycling if I run twin 175s?  I will never be running every zone in the hosue at the same time, its usually say a bathroom and a bedroom or two.  With one bed or bath being around 10k BTU.  Dont have any buffer tanks.

CMadatMe

You Will

Need a buffer tank because you will short cycle with the 175's. May even short cycle with 110's but using a hydro separator in lieu of pri/sec on the 110's will help.



I wouldn't make any decision without a proper heat loss in hand as well as a radiant design. I would reverse engineer the radiant. Find my flow rates for my zones to make any decision on a buffer tank.



If your looking for a wise investment this is a must. There is more to this then just slapping in a boiler with x amount of btu/hr capability if your looking for a efficient and comfortable working system.

Zman

Why 175?

Chris is absolutely correct that you need to do a heat loss. Your supply house may have someone that can do it for you.Take a close look at your loss on a zone by zone basis.Look at the loss with one or two of the smaller zones calling. Compare the loss of those zones on an average heating day to the lowest turndown ratio you boiler(s) are capable of. I would start considering a buffer tank when the typical single zone load is less than 1/2 the lowest output of the boiler(s). The 110's will do a much better job of matching your load than the 175's.

You and your plumber seem to be gravitating back to "bigger is better". In heating "bigger is worse".

Keep in mind;

The DHW load will never be simultaneous with another load.

The heating load (which is probably closer to 70,000) will have priority over the snowmelt ( I agree with 144k). The house will never get cold as a result of snow.

The heating load will be less than your design day load when snowmelt occurs. A properly controlled snowmelt system will not attempt to melt snow on the very coldest day.



The key to efficiency here is to share these loads using one boiler plant. It doesn't make sense to just add up all of the loads under a worst case scenario then round up numbers that have already been rounded up several times.These conditions never happen. This practice is very prevalent in north american designs and is in my opinion one of the largest wastes of energy today.

Carl

SWEI

minimum firing rates

PST60 = 16k

PST110 = 30k

PST175 = 50k

PST250 = 65k

Jim27

Update with Pics

Quick update on my progres, we are getting ready to install the twin 110s and the smart 80.  We are re-working the heating distribution and have reduce the pumps from 10 to 3.  Thats a temp hot water heater we have been using since Sandy.

SWEI

nice work

Let us know how your comfort level and gas usage turn out?

Jim27

System Temperature for Cascade Trimax

Hello,

 

As you guys know, I am installing two triangle tube boilers in cascade using the trimax control.  Can I use the boiler temperature as the system temperature in the cascade menu?  The system is already pressurized and I would rather not install a T for the temperature sensor.  I want both boilers to be able to contribute to the DHW when needed. Do I have to remove the thermostat in the Smart 80 and install the indirect temperature sensor into the storage tank dry well to wire into the TriMax, the directions seem to indicate I cant just connect the thermostat to the Solo 110.



Thank You

SWEI

DHW thermistor

You don't have to use it, but you definitely want to.  It allows the boiler to more accurately anticipate DHW demand.

 

Jim27

Temp

Doesnt the smart 80 already have a thermostat?  I cant just wire that to the boiler?  I need to replace it with an indirect temperature sensor?

CMadatMe

Better Reading

With the sensor. You can use the aquastat that comes with the tank if you want.

SWEI

sensors and stats

The SMART tank comes with an adjustable aquastat.  This allows it to work with pretty much any boiler control on the planet, but it provides limited information (I want heat) to a boiler.



The Prestige comes with a thermistor, which you insert into the SMART well from which the aquastat was removed.  It allows the boiler to monitor the temperature of the indirect in real time, making intelligent decisions using the rate of change of the DHW temp rather than the fact that it is either over or under some preset threshold.

Jim27

makes sense SWEI

thank you, do you think I can use that sensor for the system temperature input for the cascade operation?

SWEI

System Temperature

Displays the current system temperature reading on the Master boiler. If the system sensor is not wired in to the Master boiler, the Master boiler supply temperature is displayed.



I believe the system temp input uses the same 12k thermistor that TT uses elsewhere.  I'd confirm that, then buy a sensor well, drop the extra DWH sensor in and insulate over the top.

Jim27

TriMax Installer in NYC area?

Does anyone know of an installer in the NYC area who is familiar with Trimax and cascading Triangle Tube boilers?  My installer is an idiot and doesn’t know how to program TriMax despite being an authorized TT dealer.  He was convinced my boilers were defective when all he had to do was go into the installer menu and configure the cascading.  I was able to configure them myself by reading the manual but I am not a plumber and I am not sure its configured correctly.



Thank You

tim smith

Re: Trimax control

Just have the installer swallow pride and call Triangle tech support if he has read the control supplement and does not understand it. That is what they are there for. First he needs to read the manual. It is not rocket science but you do need to do some reading.  Good luck.

CMadatMe

I am

Merry Christmas. The control supplement is pretty straight forward. Just use the easy setup menu.

Jim27

Installer

Chris, are you an installer in NYC?  If so can you send me an email if you are available.



Thank You

CMadatMe

Distributor

Nope a distributor. Don't understand why your installer just doesn't call his supplier and have the rep come out. Makes no sense to me. I'm on jobs pretty much on a daily basis with my customers doing what your contractor needs.



Be more then happy to assist your contractor if he needs support but unfortunately I have a policy to never assist homeowners directly.

Jim27

Installer

Chris can you recommend an installer then familar with these products?  I am in Queens.



Thank You

CMadatMe

Bob O'Brien

From Technical Heating. He should be listed in Find A Contractor. If not, visit his website for contact information. www.technicalheating.com

Jim27

Two Pumps for DHW with Twin 110s

Hello,



I am cascading two Solo 110s, in order for both of them to respond to DHW do I need two pumps before the storage tank?  Triangle Tube support told me I need to wire the storage tank as a central heating call...which is not close to ideal.  That is how my plumber has now wired it but it is making my heat short cycle.  If I keep the target temperature at 186 for my boiler when it calls...the temp is too high for the heat as the water is mixed down to 120 degrees.  It keeps going on and off to try and keep the pipe at temperature.  If I lower the temp to say 140 degrees..the heat is ok but when I need DHW the target is way too low.  When I had the DHW pump directly connected to the master Solo 110, if the slave responded to the DHW call the pump would not operate and the boiler would lockout. 

Zman

How are you piped?

I just did one of these using tekmar to control it all.The 2 boilers were tied together using a common header. The dhw outlet on the boiler was capped This is the primary loop. The dhw, heating and snowmelt were all on parallel secondary circuits. The tekmar controlled the priorities. I think the triimax can do the same. How are you piped?

Carl

Zman

How are you piped?

I just did one of these using tekmar to control it all.The 2 boilers were tied together using a common header. The dhw outlet on the boiler was capped This is the primary loop. The dhw, heating and snowmelt were all on parallel secondary circuits. The tekmar controlled the priorities. I think the triimax can do the same. How are you piped?

Carl

CMadatMe

Did You Use

The system sensor? Is the DHW Tank piped on the boiler or primary side or is it piped on the secondary side?



Please see the attached pages 26,28, and 30. Which one is the way your piped?

Jim27

piping

The two boilers are piped on the same primary loop common header. DHW outlet on boilers is caped. The master boiler is running well but the slave boiler is heating up the water too fast in the condenser and turning off when it hits 200 degrees.  The supply is just too hot, its about 10 hoter than the master when its running at 100%  Therefore during a heating call, I have had the master running for a good 20 mins with the return around 190 degrees and the supply around 170.  Its running great.  However the slave is short cycling as the supply is much warmer than the master boiler supply and the return is hitting the 200 degree cap.  The boiler turns, heates the water from 180 to 200 in 10 seconds and shuts down,  Make sense?  Only time they both run good is during a DHW call as the supply is at a lower temp for both boilers and they only take about 10 mins to reheat the tank  Its odd because the supply is on the same common header for both boilers.  Do I need a bigger CH pump in the slave boiler compared to the master.  Should I lower the speed of the CH pump in the master?  If the slave was working as good as the master, I would assume the total time both are on would decrease even more.  The 110s are very powerful and are doing a great job for the DHW supply.

Jim27

primary

system sensor is in use

Zman

Page 26?

Are you piped like page 26? Where is your sensor located?

Carl

Jim27

system temp

yes its downsteam of the boilers, the salve is going on when it should but the supply water is just too hot causing the boiler to short cycle.  Why would the supply be hoter on the second when its conected to the same header.

Zman

Circulator

It sounds like a circulation problem. Is the circ running? How about and air lock. Forget what the gauges are saying,feel the pipes. I suspect a flow issue.

Carl

CMadatMe

Piping

You never answer the question. All the recommended piping diagrams in the manual I posted show a LLH not pri/sec except for the reverse return piping. If you are pri/sec I hope your piping is a minimum of 1-1/2". You knew going in you might need a buffer tank. Sounds like you cannot pull out the gpms or btu/hr out of the HX. It's not a pump issue but rather no place to move the btu's to.

Jim27

storage tank boiler return

I believe its a pri/sec and the pipe is 1.5 in diamater, It looks most like the reverse return diagram.  Do you think a stronger circulator would help.  Its the suppy water temp that quickly hits 200 and turns the boiler off untill it lowers to 170 or so.  The boiler supply pipe for the slave is connected right after the storage tank boiler return pipe.  Could this be the reason why?  Is the supply pulling hot water from the tank?  The master supply is on the same header but before the boiler return while the salve boiler supply input is after this T.

Zman

Drawing?

If you draw out what you have, your problem should be simple to solve.

Carl