Triangle Tube Solo 110 and Smart 80

Jim27

Hello,



We recently had our boilers destroyed by Hurricane Sandy, my original configuration was 2 96k BTU Burham boilers and a 100 gallon storage tank.  The house is around 4,000 square feet with 9 zone full house radiant heat.  The zones are controlled by taco relays / circulator pumps with a tekmar control unit.  I am thinking of changing the system to a new Triangle Tube 110 with a smart 80 indirect heater.  With my old system I felt like I never really utilized the second boiler and when I did it wasn’t on for very long.  The house is very well insulated with spray foam and receives ample sunlight.  Heat isn’t really need until the outside temp get closer to freezing.  Hot water demand is the main concern as the home has 4 showers and one whirlpool tub.  One shower also has 4 jets in addition to a hand held shower head.  Can the TT solo 110 be easily configured with a tekmar system?



Thank You

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SWEI

Triangle Tube upgrade

If that second boiler ran that infrequently, a Solo 110 should be just about right for your heating load.  Depending on the system design temp it will produce 20-25% more heat than one of the old boilers did.  Not sure exactly which Tekmar control you have, but it probably handled staging and possibly also ODR to a mix valve?  Either way, it will no longer be needed, since the TriMax onboard controls will take care of everything you need.  Your Taco zone relays and existing zone pumps will work fine with the new boiler.



The DHW question needs bit more analysis.  First, is the white box that appears to have a Lochinvar logo on it on the right side of the picture another boiler -- perhaps one that is dedicated to DHW?  How many gallons is your whirlpool tub?  You might need to upsize the SMART indirect a bit in order to fill it fully.  Once that demand is met (assuming you don't need to run the multi-head shower at the same time) you should have plenty of hot water for everything.  If you store the DHW at 140F and use a tempering valve to bring it down to 115-120F for distribution and use, you will reduce your risk of legionella and increase the effective capacity of the tank at the same time.

Jim27

Triangle Tub upgrade disco

Thank You for your help, the boiler with the Lochinvar logo is for a separate outside snowmelt system.  The old tekmar controller was a 262.  I would estimate the tub is 35-40 gallons but it is used very infrequently.  The main concern is hot water for the showers followed by sufficient power for the whole house radiant system.  My main shower due to the combination of the heads and jets use 10-12 GPM.  Would a boiler with a higher BTU heat the storage tank quicker?  Maybe I should increase to a smart 100 from a smart 80?  I have 1.25 inch pipe feeding the main shower.  Is there any benefits from using two TT 110 compared to one 250.  Like I said my old two burners were 96k each although I felt the system was inefficient with the second burner not being used much except for the coldest days. 

CMadatMe

Boiler To Small for DHW

You may run out of hot water. Your going to dump that tank in 10 minutes and no way recovery will be quick enough. Not enough btu/hr muscle.



I'd go to the PT175 limit the modulation rate of the heating side and allow full bore power on the DHW side of things. I believe with the new Trimax Control you can limit modulation rate of heating independent of DHW. If you can't may look at a different boiler choice.



Viessmann Vitodens 200 or a Lochinvar but again check to make sure you can limit modulation rate on the heating side independent of DHW. You can in the Vitodens not 100 percent positive on the others but I'm sure someone will chime in.



The Tekmar control is bye bye no use for it.

SWEI

options

Bigger boiler as Chris suggested below.



Dual 110's will give you even more punch, and easily gang together using the onboard controls.



A tankless water heater is another option worth exploring for this application.

CMadatMe

That Second Boiler

Was a running every time you had a DHW call. The PT175 will do you just fine. My only concern would be short cycling for small zones but do not know enough about the system as a whole to recommend a buffer tank in lieu of pri/sec piping. Low end on the PT175 is 50K btu/hr which is a a good size load.



If cost is not a concern then 2 PT110's and you still do not need that Tekmar control. Boilers can be cascaded with the on board control. Piping would have to be pri/sec or use a LLH/Hydro Separator.

Jim27

Triangle Tube

thx guys so a smart 80 and a TT175 or maybe a 250 and a smart 100?

Tim Potter

Heat Loss Done???

Sorry to hear about your troubles, things are really a mess.



Has anyone done a heat loss with the house in its present configuration?,

Do you know if when you showered with the present system, were both boilers firing, if so for how long ??



The original install seems like it was way over-sized for the heat load, and used a boat load of pumps.

A New properly sized ModCon with Outdoor reset and constant circulation anyone?

Dump a bunch of pumps (& electrical consumption) and gain all the comfort benefits of reset. & constant circulation.



I went from something like you have to constant circulation & Outdoor reset, what a difference it makes!



You don't need the Tekmar with the modcon,



Does the snow melt boiler need replacing also?, possibility there, depending on the size, is to use that boiler to heat the domestic.



A big indirect running at 140* with a mixing valve could provide a bunch of 110* water.

I've seen it said on the forum before: size the modcon for the heat load, then pick the

indirect.



I hope others chime in with input.



That tankless suggestion is a good possibility too, then you for sure won't be tempted to oversize the boiler. I have all kinds of hot water heaters, Tank, Tankless, & Indirect

Watch out on the tankless, see what the "time to hot water" is, some of them are pretty long. My indirect has priority on the boiler, but because I run reset & const circ, the house temp never varies a bit when the indirect is using all of the boiler output.



Terrible that you have to do this, but it gives you a shot at doing it right.



Best Wishes:



Tim

Zman

Did it work before?

You existing system could produced about 153,600 btu's. If they are single stage they can modulate to 76,800.

A single tt110 produces 99,000 btu's and can modulate to 24,000.

Two tt110;s will do 198.000 and modulate to 24,000

A tt 175 will go to 157,000 and modulate to 46,000.

I would not even consider a tt250.  It cannot come near matching your typical heat load.



If I were on a budget, I would put in a tt175 with an smart 80 or 100.



If you can swing it,  dual tt110's would be perfect.



Are you replacing the snowmelt boiler? I would use a  heat exchanger and power it with the tt boilers.



Chris,

I don't understand limiting the modulation rate. The boiler will slowly ramp up until it matches the load. I can't see the need to limit it?



Carl

SWEI

swapping out the zone circs

I was going to save that for a second round, but now that you've mentioned it we might as well dive in.  While you're modernizing your heating plant, you should look seriously at modernizing your distribution network.  Constant circ with carefully tuned ORC will turn your existing tstats into high limit controls and deliver the ultimate in comfort.



BTW, when was your system originally installed?

tim smith

RE: TT boiler and indirect

I would vote for the tt175, indirect water heater and maybe a buffer tank to minimize short cycling with all those zones.  Just my .02 worth.  Sorry to hear about all the troubles out there for you all.  Good luck. Tim

CMadatMe

Carl

In the Viessmann world I can limit the max output of the boiler by adjusting modulation rate. Why fire to X btu/hr when I don't need it. Also rate of modulation promotes higher AFUE's at higher water temps. Now, I have a boiler that will give the indirect all the btu/hr I want it to see and the heating side capped.

Jim27

Twin Solo 110 and Smart 100

Hello,

In talking with my installer today, he recommends running two TT 110 with a smart 100 boiler.  From an efficiency standpoint, what are the advantages of running two 110's as opposed to one 175.  I am just concerned this will be overkill once again in my setup with the second burner not contributing its full load to be energy and cost efficient.  My current system was installed in 05, I am going to ask about constant circulation.  I dont know much about that.  I also would rather not replace the snow melt boiler and go with the heat exchanger if I can.

 

Thank You

Zman

Nice plan

Chris,

Thanks for the response. I see what you are doing.



Jim,

The reason for the 2 110's is to get the maximum turndown ratio. With 9 zones, you likely have some small loads. If you have 1 or 2 zones calling, you only need maybe 5k to 10k BTU. A larger boiler will not be able to match the load. Instead it will cycle on and off, reducing efficiency.



Is your entire house radiant? In slab?

How much snowmelt are you doing?

You have excess heating capacity due to your hot water needs. Why not use it for snowmelt?



Carl

CMadatMe

Jim

At this point I think we all gave you the best we can based off the limited amount of information provided. In order to give you the best solution and advice I would approach it this way.



I'd start with a heat loss of of the home to get the heating requirment. Just using the existing load is not the proper way to size the boilers. I would break my heat loss room to room and zone to zone. I would then measure all the existing heat emitters to compare their capable btu/hr ouput at different water temps to the room to room, zone to zone heat loss. I would then calculate the domestic load and size appropriately.



If you wanted at some point to get off the Lochinvar I would also have to calculate that load as well and size appropriately.



Utilizing 2 small condensing boilers is not the same as your existing system. They cascade not stage. This means both boilers will see run time. Boiler 1 does not go to 100 percent and then boiler 2 comes on. Boiler 1 may go to 30% and when more load is needed drop to 20% and then Boiler 2 would come on to 20% thus giving you 40%. Two boilers running at 20 is more efficient then 1 boiler running at 40.



The PT110 and the added storage in my opinion is not the way to go here based on the demand you have. The PT175, cappinng the heating modulation rate is the better wY with 2 PT110's possibly being the best way.



I think you really need for someone to show you some hard load numbers before you make the choice as well as a good system design. This stage will make or break yur expectations as to comfort and fuel savings.

CMadatMe

Thanks Carl

I went through the entire Trimax Control Supplement and didn't see a place to cap the heating side modulation rate. Going to make a call tomorrow to find out.

Gordan

Capping space heating modulation

Observing the fan speed on the previous generation Solo with the MCBA, it spins up to about 3500 rpm to light off, keeps it there for a few seconds for flame stabilization, and then fairly rapidly turns it down to minimum (a bit below 1900 rpm.) It will then speed it up, if necessary, to meet its setpoint. If you're not letting it ramp up based on the length of demand, and just using plain outdoor reset with constant circulation, it should never modulate beyond the point that's required to meet its setpoint. If the setpoint is too high for the needs of space heating, the thing to do is tweak the reset curve, not cap output. If the setpoint is not too high, then capping output beyond the level required to maintain the setpoint would seem like you're hamstringing your system. I'm a big fan of positive limits on the behavior of control algorithms that you can tweak to your specification, but I'm not sure that I can come up with a scenario that would require this one.

Zman

Application

Gordon,

I agree that on a well designed system, where the zones use similar water temps, outdoor reset is a better tool for preventing overheating. There may be some retro applications where capping the output will prevent the boiler from overproducing. I agree it should not be the preferred method.

Carl

Tim Potter

One more thing....

One more thing to drive you & your installer crazy with...

Why would you/he be thinking of doing 2 TT110's when the combined output is greater than what you now have & you don't use more than 1/2 of your present capacity regularly .



It seems like if you like the cascading 2 boiler setup, a couple of Locinvar Fire Tube wHn085's would give you in effect a 10 to 1 turn-down with a low fire of under 17,000 btu's. to limit short cycling under mild conditions. They also have a dual boiler Efficiency Optimized Cascade setup.



Tim

CMadatMe

Tim

That's why the PT175 and capping modulation rate for the heating side would be the way to go. Unfortunately you cannot do it with the Triangle. Spoke to them. Now it would be to add a buffer tank to minimize the short cycling..



Smart play is the 2 PT110's or another mfg boiler..

Zman

Snow melt

Tim,

If the additional capacity could be used for snow melt, I think it is a win win.He would have appropriate sizing for heat, generous dhw production and snowmelt with the extra capacity.

Carl

Jim27

Twin 110

@Zman, twin 110s correct? I am going to ask about a heat exchanger for the outdoor snowmelt. Also do you think an smart 80 or smart 100 tank?

Zman

80 or 100?

Did you have enough hot water before? If so I think you could do the same. Your gpm estimates seem high.

I was recommending twin tt 110's

They can control themselves or can be controlled with a tekmar.

How much snowmelt are you doing?What size is that boiler?

Some of the zone piping will have to be redone to maximize efficiency. Do you have a drawing?

Carl

Tim Potter

2 different size Triangle Tubes????

Instead of 2 TT110's, (modulation rate 30K to 220K) Would it be feasible to combine a TT50 with a TT175 to get a wider modulation rate (from 16K to 230K) to limit the short-cycling problems in a setup without a buffer tank ??



Tim

Zman

Lead/Lag

What you suggest makes sense in theory. I don't believe the onboard controller can do this. Tekmar can do it. The problem is one boiler will end up with much more run time. You also lose you redundancy. I would not do it.

Carl

Jim27

Smart 80 and Twin 110s

Hello,



I have a question of powering the smart 80 with the twin 110s.  My plumber is telling me I need twin 175s to power the smart 80 because the smart 80 needs 300k BTU an hour to replinsh the hot water.  Does this make any sense?  From a heating standpoint my home heat loss only requires about 125k BTUs.



Thank You

Gordan

Well...

There's no minimum boiler output that an indirect "needs." Boiler output will affect continuous and first hour ratings, and recovery time. So, your DHW usage patterns may require a higher boiler output (or they may not), but a given indirect tank does not. In fact, often people whose space heating demand is much smaller than the DHW demand get a larger indirect to offset their boiler's lack of ability to keep up with the DHW load. That will only work in certain situations, though, so make sure that you analyze your DHW use to figure out what you really need.

CMadatMe

Your Plumber Is Good at Reading

Literature but in the real world your not supplying 200 degree boiler water.



A Smart 80 will give you 4.5gpm continuous using 180 degree water @ 200,000 btu/hr that's 270 GPH continuous or 350GPH 1st hour rating using 2 PT110's based on a 90 degree rise. Which by the way, means you would be mixing so you won't be drawing 4.5gpm directly from the tank because you will have a blend of cold water.



In his world 350,000 btu/hr is giving you an extra 50 gph continuous recovery or .83 gpm. Seems like putting in 2 PT175's is a lot more expensive then just increasing storage to 120 if your concerned. But what do I know, guess I just need to read the literature..



I have 37 Apartments running off 1 Viessmann 120 Gallon Stainless tank being supplied with 285,000 btu/hr (since that is all you can get through the coil) at a 90 rise and being mixed down. Is your load larger than that?



http://www.triangletube.com/documents/2/SMART%20Commercial%20Performance%20Data.pdf

Jim27

Chris

Hello,



I also have about 1200 feet of outdoor snowmelt which I would like to add on to this system instead of buying another boiler.  My plumber is saying I would need the twin 175s to handel this additional load.  Chris can I give you a call, my email is JC7727@gmail.com

CMadatMe

Snowmelt

Using the standard of 120 btu/hr per sqft that's 144,000 btu/hr and your heating load was

?. Since we don't know the loss but its all radiant we will use 17 btu/hr per sqft.. Which puts us at 68,000 btu/hr...Seem like those 2 PT110's would do the trick...Heat loss is a must here.



I wouldn't choose the Triangle (personal preference). I'd go with 2 Viessmann Vitodens 200 WB2B35's, limiting my heating side modulation rate for my radiant, dhw would run at the full rate and I'd slap in a HX for the snowmelt via the external demand function in the boiler control and call it a day..

Jim27

One last question

heating btu for the house is about 100k and with the snowmelt it goes to about 250k.  What are twin 110s, 172k btu.  Twin 175s would be 350k BTU.  I really dont use much snowmelt, maybe 2 or 3 times a year.  Do you think its necessary to go with the twin 175s or twin 110s can handel it.  Like I said I have some small zones which are probably 15k BTU such as a bedroom.  Worried the 175s would short cycle, is that a valid concern?  Dont really want to add buffer tanks.

SWEI

250k snowmelt

Is that a calculated load, or the nameplate size of the old boiler?



Dual 110's will probably do the job just fine.  They will be running at nearly 100% efficiency with those return water temps.

Jim27

split

caluclated loads are about 100k for home and 150k for snow, the snow is just rough.

Two Solo 110s would produce 86k * 2 = 172k

Two Solo 175s would produce 134k * 2 = 268k

Starting to think the two solo 110s would have enough to do the heat and snowmelt when needed.

CMadatMe

Heat Loss

I just cannot see a 4,000 sqft home as you described heated radiantly needing 100,00 btu/hr. I have just about 2,000 sqft home, R-11 Walls, R-30 in the attic with updated windows and my heat loss is 36,000 with no radiant. I live in a zero degree design climate.

SWEI

more math

Definitely need a proper heat loss on the house as Chris suggests.



Looks like you are using the I=B=R output numbers which do not represent the reality of modern low temperature radiation designs.  The DOE number is even a bit low for a properly sized and commissioned mod/con but probably pretty close once you add DHW to the mix.

Jim27

smart 80 vs 100

ok so im pretty much decided on twin 110s and a smart 80, thought about doing the smart 100 but the actual water heater is a tad big to fit in the space i have allocated.  I am a tad worried abour running out of hot water but hopefully I am ok.  My plumber still thinks twin 175s would be the better option due to the DHW.  I dont like the idea of short cycling with my heat due to having small zones such as a a bedroom which is only 15k BTU or so.

SWEI

heat loss calc on the house?

You really don't want to make an equipment decision until you know this...

Jim27

heat loss

I think its about 60k plubmber says its 100k, twin 110s will be plenty for the heat its more the DHW

Zman

Priorities

You will want to set the system up make DHW a priority. Heating would be next. Snowmelt would be a low priority setpoint it would only work when other demands are satisfied. Tekmar controls would be my suggestion.

Carl

LovehotH20

Options....

Looks liek a lot of good thought going into this. For my two cents I would look at a Peerless 92-2 Modulating cast Iron unit coupled up with a Turbomax 45. By all means prioritize the DH. If you want to get very fancy you can install two of these in series and met the SM needs as well. IMHO the shower and tub needs dictate a look at the Turbomax. I have installed this combo and have many happy clients. Because the 92-2 and Tmax combo is relatively compact set up in may help too. Dont forget to look at the Honeywell AQ200 as well--Good luck!

CMadatMe

Suggest

You take the extra time, about and hour or two and have a proper radiant heat loss done. I think, has dug holes you don't want.