New Boiler, and Problems

SFbird

Tekmar D279

We are going to look at this Tekmar system that Rod recommended. I don't know if our current system ( Ranco, controls pictured in my first set of photos, sideways) is usable if we get someone in here to re-evaluate and reconfigure the sensors. Don't know who picked it in the first place but I know the homeowners did not have any input. It's likely that our current plumber was the "Decider".



My husband had been looking into TRV's a couple of years ago as a way to increase efficiency and control. We had a vague idea that the thermostat in the boiler room was not really doing much of anything and we needed to go in a different direction, but other events with the boiler took over our priorities.



The ambient temp in the condos here varies greatly; the front of the property is south facing so we get tons of sun all day (when it's not foggy !). The back of the building is much cooler. Our top floor unit is more exposed to wind, while floors 2 and 1 have buildings on either side that mitigate the "drafty outer wall" problem. I think if we put the indoor sensor in a back-facing unit, first floor we should be okay but I worry that the front facing units might get too hot. There is actually an old, original thermostat on the wall of the first floor ( back facing unit- not the one right over the boiler room but next to it). Should we use it's presence as a guide and stick the sensor in there?

Dave in QCA

Excellent system

I installed the Tekmar 279 3 years ago.  It has performed wonderfully.  While it is capable of doing a setback, any attempt to turn down the heat at night was met with complaints from the tenants, some of whom get up at 5 in the morning.  So, I just gave up on that idea.



As far as running cycles in a manner that produce a very even temperature in the building with little or no perceptable temperature fluctuation, I don't think you can beat it.   The controller has a temperature sensor outdoors, one at the end of the longest steam main, one or two (or more) sensors in the space.  I use two space sensors, one on the north and one on the south, and have it set to use which ever is the coldest.  You can also have it average the two.



The principle of operation is based on the theory at a given outdoor temperature, the boiler will need to fire for a certain percentage of each hour.  The indoor sensors provide additional feedback to the calculation to make the cycle shorter or longer than.  The cycle on time does not begin until the end of the steam main sensor sense that steam has been established.  It is a bit complicated and requires some adjustment in the beginning, but I am very happy with it.



I bought it from PEX, they have a very good price, which I am not actually discussing.  

nicholas bonham-carter

ranco refrigeration controls

send those back, or use them for protecting a dishwasher from over-heating (their stated purpose).

your choices are the Honeywell visionpro thermostat with (up to 4) remote sensors in  cooler locations, or the tekmar 279 with condensate line, indoor, and outdoor sensors. both are available from pexsupply.

when the controls are in charge and properly set, the opening and closing of radiator valves must stop.

as the pressure is now lower, the radiator surface temperature will be slightly cooler, and more comfortable.--NBC

SFbird

Wow

I guess we should have been a little more on top of this! "Refrigeration controls" ? Yikes!

Paul48

Phew!

I'm tired.....been scrolling since Tuesday to get to the bottom of this thread  :P Your fellow owners should be sending you flowers. It's through your perseverance that they will be more comfortable and pay far less to remain comfortable. I'll bet you never thought you'd have to learn so much about steam heat.

Rod

New Boiler

Hi Paul -  I agree. My purpose in mentioning TRVs was just to be sure SF was aware that such a thing  like that existed. The control situation obviously needs to be straightened out first. Thanks for further clarifying  the operation of a TRV

- Rod. 

Rod

Marginal Garage Vent

Hi- Sorry, I must have missed this earlier. The long thread with the latest questions and answers in the middle gets a bit confusing.



Just lengthening the pipe connecting the vent to the return pipe really doesn't accomplish any thing!!!  It is vertical location of the hole in the return pipe where the vent is attached that counts!

. Since it's above the "A" Dimension Height, it should work in the present location  It's just that it would be nicer to move the vent (hole) vertically up the return pipe more to increase the safety factor.  The extra safety factor allows for things like dirty/slow wet return pipes that contribute to a higher waterline.

    When the burner is running, every extra ounce of pressure (above the 2 PSI max) raises the waterline in the Return Pipe 1 3/4 of an inch. and since the present vent hole in the return pipe is very close to the "A" Dimension Height, if the boiler pressure increases, it would force the waterline farther up the return pipe which would result in submerging /blocking the present vent hole and pipe leading to the vent.  This would immediately stop the venting from the main and stop the steam reaching the radiators

.

Again moving the vent (hole) is one of those things that is sort of good but optional but since you have someone already there working on the pipes, moving the vent (hole) up a bit should be fairly simple to do.

- Rod

vaporvac

Bullets: are they needed?

OK. I do not mean to hijack this post and cause any confusion , but I have a question after seeing the pictures of the radiators with the bullets shaped air vents. I have a two-pipe Trane Vaporvac sytem and read somewhere on this forum to remove any of these vents on my radiators and plug the hole.  Is thisadvice only for two-pipe systems and should I still plan on doing this?  I only have 1 so it's not a big deal to do (except for dismantling the built-in cabinet that surrounds it!:) )

Dave in QCA

Bullit=air vent

The air vents you saw are Hoffman Specialty #40 air vent valves.  Air vents are for one-pipe steam systems.  They do not belong on a two pipe system.  They are sometimes added to compensate for a problem rather than actually repairing the problem.  It should not be done. Remove it and plug the hole. 

SFbird

Thermostat/Boiler Controls Again

Probably worth getting another contractor out here (who is a little more meticulous about this sort of thing) to install whichever system we go with.  Our current guy is super nice and willing to go the extra mile, but based on his previous thermostat selection and install, I get the sense that I would end up getting hyper-involved all over again. Not sure I'm up for it; I might just end up driving you all nuts with more questions and you have been too nice already.



Also, thanks to Rod for your reply to my earlier question about the vent height piping. Sorry it got lost in this endless conversation! I am leaning towards having him move the connection higher since it was his team that lowered it in the first place.

fixitguy

Yikes!

I've been following this posting, and all I can say is Wow! Friends don't let friends play with steam. (unless they know what they are doing)

fixitguy

Yikes!

I've been following this posting, and all I can say is Wow! Friends don't let friends play with steam. (unless they know what they are doing)

SFbird

Skimming Today, Finally

We were waiting on the Gortons to arrive and they came late Thursday but I wanted the boiler skimmed before they went on. Plumber is here today to do that. Of course I printed out the Peerless Skim instructions and Rod's (very helpful) skim port illustrations and handed everything over so I don't know how we could go wrong now. Guess I shouldn't say that....anyway I will update on how it's running after we get the new vents on. Might try lowering the pressure even more after that!

Rod

Lower Pressure Gauge & Vaporstat

Hi - I'm glad to hear things are coming together for you.  The skimming setup looks really good.  Let us know how the Gortons work out.



 On lowering the pressure -  On 2 pipe vapor systems the operating pressures can be lowered way down in some cases to single digit ounces. Generally 1 pipe steam systems (like you have) can't be lowered to these levels. It depends a lot of the individual system's "personality" as some 1 pipe systems can go lower than others.  It is a trial and error thing. You just test and see how far the pressure can be lowered and still operate properly.



Low Pressure gauge-  When you're trying to lower your operating pressure it helps a lot to add an addition gauge to the boiler that measures low pressure more accurately and is easier to read.  Most people here with 1 pipe steam systems use a Model # 33020  0-3 PSI Gauge. These are available from the Gauge Store. The following is a link to the gauge:  

http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020

     The gauge needs to have a pigtail between it and the boiler to protect the gauge from the high temperature of steam. I have attached a picture below showing a typical setup. This gauge is in addition to the normal 0-30 PSI gauge which you boiler already has. The 0-30 PSI gauge must be retained as it is required by code/insurance. Also it is a handy check that the 0-3 PSI  gauge is working properly



Vaporstats - Vaporstats look similar and do the same job as Pressuretrols but they designed to operate better than the Pressuretrols at low pressures. At very low pressures the Pressuretrols tend to  be unreliable. While the 0-3PSI Gauge would be a big help,  I‘m not necessarily suggesting you need a Vaporstat right away I just wanted you to know about them so you have that option if needed.

- Rod

SFbird

Pressure

Once again, thank you so much for all the helpful information Rod. You have really been an exceptional resource.



 I was very insistent about that skim port getting done in the right spot, I handed over your photos and even printed out the Peerless diagram showing where the thing is supposed to be because I was worried they were going to use a relief valve opening or something!



The Gortons are on and we are still running it at .5 PSI Cut In and 2 PSI Max; he wants to give it a day and then try going to 1 max and see how it does.  Going to also see about the gauge and vaporstat you suggested. So far, the noise is gone, even at garage level. They found a couple of pipes that were hitting some of the steel beams from the retrofit work and they insulated around those, so along with the pressure settings and venting, this has made a world of difference. I can't believe we were running our former boiler for all those years at high pressure with crappy venting and nobody who came out to give us bids on the replacement figured it out!! I must have had five different contractors in here. Maybe some of you east coasters need to come out here and set up shop.

SFbird

Spoke too soon?

Ack! Is it normal for the sight glass water to still be fluctuating  a LOT through the cycle? Plumber thinks it is going to need a bit to "settle down" since we had the thing drained etc for skimming today but the other troubling sign is that the front building riser is now not getting steam to our living room radiator. I think he has the max pressure set now at  1 & 3/4 PSI ( just below 2 ) but that is only a slight change from where it was before he put on the Gortons. Also had a little bit of water coming out of that one vent in the corner (that we discussed in detail) where he still needs to raise the connection on the pipe. 

nicholas bonham-carter

Skimming procedure

The boiler will not settle down. Skimming requires raising up the level of water in the boiler (no draining at this point) so that the surface oils will drain very slowly out through the skimming port pipe. As described previously this takes hours, and is usually part of the installation, as it is a manufacturers requirement. If he wasn't there for 4-6 hours, he didn't do it right.

When the boiler is making steam is it consistent or is it short-cycling?--NBC

SFbird

He was here pretty much all day.....

It was the tech who assembled the boiler who did the skimming, not main plumber (but he did come by to check on things and again when the system was fired up again). I had printed out all the skimming instructions from Peerless along with the skimming article that Rod sent and the tech had it in his hand when he arrived. I also had taped yet another copy to the door of the boiler room with a note saying that I wanted the instructions followed. My husband saw him with a box of the Arm & Hammer Soda Wash so it is possible that they ran more of that stuff through and rinsed it out again which would explain my plumber mentioning draining to me tonight on the phone.......I am going to speak to him in the morning when he calls to check on things and I will pin him down on what exactly he means by "draining".



The boiler seems to be cycling about every three-four minutes ( burner comes on, goes off, pressure goes up, then burner fires up again). Plumber was asked about this by me tonight and he states it is normal.



I am starting to lose it over here....

Steamhead

Looks like there is a LOT of dirt in that boiler

and possibly more coming back from the system. Keep draining the dirt out and skimming off the oil- you'll get there. 

SWEI

Is it time for the Rhomar?

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/100691/Running-boiler-with-Rhomar-Hydrosolv-9150

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/82779/Rhomar-Hydro-solve

SFbird

Boiler is Killing Me

Just watched the sight glass again, boiler has been on for about 5 hours now. The burner comes on for one minute, goes off for one, then comes back on again. Water is pretty stable when the burner is lit, maybe fluctuates 1/4 to 1/2 inch, but once the flame goes out, it drops like crazy and more bubbles start to descend from the top. The water doesn't look dirty but the bubbles are making me nervous; either that water is really churning inside the vessel or there is more soap festering in there.



Pipe in garage that drops from main to wet return, the one with that connection that needs to be moved up higher for the vent, is leaking. More water drips out when the boiler is firing. Can't tell for sure if water is coming out of the nice new Gorton at the top or the pipe connection. Not a flood, but a hard-to-miss puddle is forming.



Still operating on a timer, the boiler will stop running in half an hour. Do we let it come on in the morning or shut it down until our plumber shows up? At the very least, we are not getting any noise from the radiators......but still no heat in living room/ front riser.

nicholas bonham-carter

Short-cycling

There is a possibility the controls are doing this short-cycling. If a jumper is put on the terminals at the boiler to simulate a call for heat, then if the controls are at fault, the boiler will not short-cycle. If the short-cycling continues, then the problem is in the boiler.

It still needs cleaning, and when all the oils are out, the normal long cycles will get steam up into all the radiators, whereas now the burner is cutting out before the steam has filled the system.

A better gauge would tell you if the pressuretrol is cutting off on pressure, even though the settings are normal. This could be inadequate main venting. It's a pity these several safeties, and boiler controls do not have status lights to show which one is doing the cutting out. Otherwise the jumper cable can be used to find which one it is.--NBC

BobC

Flush boiler

Are you sure the plumber is draining and flushing the boiler after using the washing soda to clean and skim? You don't want to be making steam with that washing soda in the boiler. Make sure the boiler cools before refilling with fresh water and run it for 30 minutes afterwards to drive off all the dissolved oxygen.



Outside of that the boiler may just have to be cleaned and skimmed a few more times.



good luck,



Bob

SFbird

No Heat This Morning

My husband just checked the boiler at 9:50 AM, it was programed to come on at 6AM but we had no heat up here in any of our radiators.



Boiler itself felt warm but was not firing when he was down there, sight glass full to top, no sign of leaking in garage. Maybe it tried to do something this morning but whatever is happening now stopped it....



Another possibility, according to the Peerless troubleshooting guide (which also mentions the need to skim more) is that the boiler water feed rate or pump rate is too fast. This is listed under both "excessive water level bounce" and "system or boiler overfilling or flooding" problems.



Waiting now for plumber to come by.......

JStar

Dirt

I would suggest installing a ball valve on the return near the boiler, and flushing all of the returns out until they run clean. Seems like you are getting a lot of old sludge back in the boiler. And please...make the plumber stop adding anything to the boiler! It's not working!!

BobC

Bouncing water line

With the water level bouncing around the way it is the automatic water feeder is probably feeding water into the boiler and when the water in the system finds it's way back you end up with a flooded boiler.



I agree the returns should be flushed till clean, the boiler flushed and skimmed again, and disable that auto water feeder till this is sorted out. The low water cutoff may stop the boiler but that is preferable to flooding it because of slow condensate return.



Bob

nicholas bonham-carter

Don't lose patience!

The thing to remember about these systems is that when first installed, they did a fine job of silent, efficient heating. Over the years they have been subject to various knuckleheaded repairs/replacements which have degraded their ability to do the job for which they were first installed.

Your task, which is difficult, but not impossible is to return the system to its original state of operation(ok different fuel). When this is finished, this system will operate as it once did with quiet, even, economical heat for all.--NBC

SFbird

Thanks Nicholas...

We are hanging in there! The plumber came out this morning and got our flooded boiler running again, it has been VERY quiet at least, and no more leaks from the vents so far. Still running it at low pressure settings as before. He swears that they followed the skimming guidelines, skimming off the top through the port, testing the water etc. I am going to ask about flushing the returns as suggested because our old boiler had so many issues from being simply being neglected and running at high pressure for so long, that I am certain there is gunk left in the system.



Will observe how everything is running in the morning ( sight glass, cycling) and I'll report back. Thanks again for the help and support!

SFbird

Been reading up on venting....

Yesterday I went through GW Gill's article on maximizing venting. We have three Gorton #2's now, could we benefit from even more? I'm looking at the photos on his website of the rows of multiple vents wondering if we should head in that direction...

Dave in QCA

Another perspective on venting

If you are looking at your venting, here is a "must read"!  It is written by Dave Bunnell, aka "The Steam Whisperer", aka Boiler Pro.

Hey has some very good perspectives on using the old slow Hoffman #40 for radiator vents.  I can attest that I have used his approach to balance a friend's system that seems as though it could not be balance.  Slowing down the radiators and speeding up the mains was the solutiong!





http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell