New Boiler, and Problems

SFbird

Hello, I posted on The Wall last year when we had a near-meltdown from corrosion on our building's late 1980's Peerless. I am just a homeowner, not an expert on plumbing at all, so this website has been very helpful!  We just replaced our sad, patched-up boiler with a new Peerless 65/66 series and it was fired up this past Friday. I am going to paste sections of what I posted on The Wall earlier today; I had a couple good responses but thought I should take this to the "Steam" section for more. Just for background, I live in a 12 unit condominium building, built 1929, in San Francisco. It doesn't get *that* cold here but we run the boiler all year (foggy, chilly summers!). Not a large building, each unit is about 1,100 sq, ft, three stories over a garage. Poorly insulated.



Here are the main parts of my recent Wall posts:



1- We are getting lots of steam hammer happening in the radiators now. We

had some with the old boiler but it is now pinging all the way through

the heating cycle, except when it is at the very end. All steam vents

are new, valves replaced within last 4 years....I am including photos of the new near-boiler piping so you can tell me if it all looks "kosher" .

2- So I was just downstairs observing while the unit was going through a few cycles. Seemed to be firing up every 4-5 minutes.



I took photos of the gauges since I am (of course) somewhat confused as

to what they are all. Anyhoo....this is what I can tell you:



"Cut In" set to just below 2



"Internal Syphon" reads 5PSI when burner is fired, drops to 2.5 after it goes off



"Main Pressuretrol" is set to about 8PSI (is that the cut-off pressure level?)





The sight glass water drops way down when the burner is lit, lots of

bubbles fill the empty space. Water stays pretty low (fluctuates a

little) and then when the burner goes off it rises, eventually filling

ALL the way to the top after the burner goes off .





Thermostatic controls are reading "E2" on two out of three.





We are getting pinging and clanging pretty much every cycle. Radiator in

my unit, third floor sounds like a "surge" of steam hits it and then some

jangling / pinging sounds. My other two radiators are turned off, but still getting

noise near the connection in the floor.



 Rod replied to my other thread asking about whether the new boiler was properly skimmed yet. I need to address this tomorrow with our contractor and let you know. He did flush it out with some "soap flakes" (his words) but I don't know that he followed the Peerless instructions for this process.



Thanks for any feedback! Sorry I can't figure out how to rotate these pictures so they are easier to view!

-Maria



First are pics of the gauges, others of new near-boiler piping:

Rod

New Boiler Problems

Hi-

      Your steam pressure is far too high . As a place to start, the “cut in” should be about ½ PSI and the cut out (maximum pressure) set at no more than  2 PSI.   Keep in mind  the Empire State Building’s steam system (with 6500 radiators) operates at under 3 PSI!  



Having the steam pressure set too high can lead to all sorts of problems. It can back the water right out of the boiler. It will increase what is called the  “A’ dimension  which means water may get up into the steam lines which then is a cause of water hammer. Also when the boiler water is backed out of the boiler, the water level drops which may cause the Low Water Cut Out to activate and cause excess water to be added to the boiler.  High pressure  will also destroy all those new radiator vents!



Sags in the piping need to be avoided as this causes the condensate (water ) to pool and since the water in the pools will be cooler, this can cause the steam traveling through the pipe to condense (collapse.)   When steam collapses it dramatically changes in volume. 1 Cubic Foot of steam instantly turns into 1 cubic Inch of water. This leaves a large void (vacuum) in the pipe which the water on both side of the vacuum, rush in to fill. When the two rushing walls of water collide, you get the sound you know as water hammer. A properly configured steam system should be very quiet.



  Radiators- Another things you might want to do is check all the radiators to see if the valves are fully open and the radiators have a slight slope towards the valve end of the radiator. On a one pipe steam system the valve on the steam pipe needs to be fully open or fully closed.  If the valve is only opened halfway the steam coming into the radiator through the valve collides with the water (condensate) leaving the radiator through the valve. (See attached diagram)

The radiator needs to be slightly sloped towards the steam pipe providing steam to the radiator.

The slope should be very slight, just enough to encourage the condensate (water) to drain out of the radiator and back to the boiler.   (Too much slope can cause a problem) The best way to check radiator slope is to use a carpenter’s bubble level.  



Let’s get the pressure down and check the radiators first and observe what happens.

Skimming - Sometimes this has to be done several times as more of the contaminates from the new piping work there way into the boiler water.

Main Vents- As Nicholas  mentioned you need good main venting. See if you can locate these or ask the contractor where they are located.  Post a picture as that would be a big help.

- Rod

Hap_Hazzard

Soap flakes?

Soap would not be a good thing to have in a boiler. I hope he was kidding. Peerless recommends washing soda, about 1 cup for every 400 ft.² EDR. The boiler should be drained completely and refilled after skimming.

Henry

Boiler wash

All boilers need at least 6 hours of a proper wash using the manufacturers suggested product and then a good rinse. This will remove oil etc from the boiler which would give erratic water levels.

nicholas bonham-carter

New boiler problems

As has said, the pressure is too high. Reducing that and installing additional main venting will help a lot. Can you take some pictures of the new radiator vents so we can make sure they are not too fast for the radiators.

When you say that the thermostatic controls are showing an "e2" message, are you referring to the thermostat. Make sure the thermostat can be setup for steam. The short-cycling you describe must be either from the thermostat, pressuretrol, or the LWCO reacting to a surging waterline. The soap flakes are "arm and hammer washing soda", which is specified by peerless as the pre-cleaner prior to a good skimming to remove the oils. Skimming can take hours of trickling out of the skimming port to wash oils off the surface of the water, and it is part of installing the boiler. Use of magic cleaners such as squick is a poor substitute for skimming.

Most people here either use the Honeywell visionpro thermostat with a remote indoor sensor placed in the colder corner of the building, or they would use a Tekmar 279 boiler control with an outdoor sensor which runs the boiler with any drop in outside temperature, while still monitoring the indoor temperature. Any method used to control the boiler cannot compensate for any erratic behavior.--NBC

SFbird

This helps!

Thanks so much for all of your help. I will get some photos of the radiator vents ( Hoffman 40 Air, max. 10 PSI)  and the one main vent in the garage that is exposed. There might be others up in the ceiling or the walls that I can't get to. Is that something that is done with steam systems? Enclosing a vent in a wall?



We have a call in to our contractor and will get the pressure settings changed today The radiators are clanging away right now......

SFbird

Radiator Pitch

Hi Rod, thanks for all of your help! The radiator pitch is one thing that we have been on top of for sometime as we were having steam hammer issues with the old boiler for a while. And we have lectured all the homeowners endlessly about having the valves either all the way on or off, and not messing with the valves while the system is operating.



Our previous steam hammer noise was confined more to the garage with an occasional ping upstairs. This caused us to have suspicions about the near-boiler piping and one larger line that crosses the garage ceiling which may have been flattened during our earthquake retrofit construction. Checking that will require opening up a heavy plywood ceiling that was part of the retrofit, but I think that it will be necessary. But first, we are going to follow your advice about the pressure and the skimming.....

Rod

Main Vents

Hi-

     The job of the main vents is to quickly allow air to escape from the steam mains so that steam reaches all the radiators quickly and at approximately the same time. When steam reaches the main vents they close and the steam travels on into each radiator.

Each individual main needs to have its own main vent (s).  These are located preferably on the end of the main, farthest from the boiler or on the dry return pipe just before it drops down and becomes the wet return. (See attached drawing of a typical multi mains 1 pipe system)

      There are 3 main vents commonly used - The Gorton #1, the Gorton #2 and the Hoffman #75

Venting capacity wise:

3 Gorton #1 (s) = 1 Gorton #2

2 Hoffman  #75(s)  = 1 Gorton #2



The amount of venting needed is determined by measuring the pipe size and the length of the main.  Unlike radiator venting , you can’t cause a problem by having too much main venting.

As a very rough  guess I would think you would need a least minimum of 1 Gorton #2 on each main and adding even more venting would beneficial. If you can supply use with the length and pipe size we can calculate what venting you need. You also might want to take a look at Gerry Gill’s website:

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

   Gerry Gill is a very experienced Cleveland steam pro and an expert on the subject of venting. (He wrote a book on the subject!)  Take a good look around his website as he has a lot of excellent information on steam heating.



Main Vents shouldn’t be hidden as they need to be occasionally checked and serviced.

I’ve attached a picture below of common main vents to help you recognize them. I’ve also attached a drawing of how multiple main vents are typically attached to the steam main.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

one more thing to add

i hope he can assure you that threaded iron pipe was used in accordance with peerless's instructions. welded headers, or copper pipe are not suitable for that purpose.--nbc

Hap_Hazzard

Not by design.

No one would intentionally enclose a vent behind a wall, because people who designed heating systems knew the vents wouldn't last forever, but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't come along later and do a little remodeling.

SFbird

Header Pipes

I saw all the near boiler piping before the insulation went on and the joints looked like this, so I think we are okay:

SFbird

Only One Vent Visible at Garage Level

The vent pictured here was replaced last year as part of our effort to deal with some of the steam hammer downstairs. The pipe running along the ceiling was adjusted to pitch down toward that corner but now I notice that it takes a little turn up again near that end so that likely needs to be addressed. The vent is located in the corner behind those bikes where the ceiling pipe bends down toward the floor.



I don't know if our construction crew would have been dumb enough to conceal other vents when they put up the drywall. I am still waiting on our plumber to show up to adjust the pressure, etc. and I will ask him what he knows about our venting. He was on duty when we did all the retrofit work, so he saw it all when the ceiling was opened up. Here are some photos from the garage, once again I apologize if a few are upside down or sideways, they look fine on my desktop but they get rotated when I upload for some reason:



That pipe running along the floor near the "Open House" sign goes back to the boiler (wet return?) We had one contractor tell us it should not be flat on the floor like that and then another said if it is below the boiler water line it doesn't matter? These pipes all look to only be about 2 inches diameter.



Last three pics are of two of my radiators to show the vent & valves; these are what are used in all the condos. Most owners have two or three radiators total, some got pulled over time when people renovated.

Hap_Hazzard

Looks like a Hoffman 76

This wouldn't be a one-pipe vacuum system by any chance?



Pitch is unimportant below the Hartford loop because it's going to be full of water anyway unless it leaks, and it already has to go uphill to return to the boiler.

SFbird

One Pipe, but not sure about Vacuum

My husband, who knows more about this type of thing than I do, says we have a "one pipe system" if that means we have only one pipe feeding each radiator, no other return pipe on radiators, just an air vent......not sure about the vacuum part but I can ask our plumber tonight if he ever gets here (he keeps odd hours sometimes). 

JUGHNE

RANCO ETC-111000

In the photo of the three control T-stats (top entry); inside is 72*, return is E2, outside is E2.   If these are the Ranco's as laying on my desk right now the E2 code is an error message "Appears if the control settings are not properly stored in memory.  To correct: Check all settings and correct if necessary"   Is this a control problem or not??  And is there a simple explanation of the logic controlling of this system as I may have a need for this in a future project.  Thanks!!

Rod

Garage Main Vent

Hoffman makes a #75 for regular systems and a #76 for vacuum systems.  They look the same and are physically both the same except for a minor modification which makes a #75 into a #76.

You might take a close look at the vent and see if you can see any model number on it.

Vacuum wise- Your system is 1pipe steam so is therefore a non vacuum system.



I looked over you recent photos and I’m a bit concerned about the “A” dimension on this main.

I’ve attached a drawing which will help to check this out.

First of all is the floor beneath the boiler the same height (level to)  as the garage floor?  If the boiler floor isn’t close to being level with the garage floor then the following may not be applicable.  If it is,  measure the vertical distance between the garage floor and where the vent attached to the Dry Return Piping and let us know what this dimension is.   This dimension I labeled  “X”.   Dimension “X” needs to be equal to or greater that measurement “Y” which is 53 7/8 inches for the system to work properly. (And this is at a 2 PSI maximum operating pressure - more pressure than 2 PSI  then the “Y” measurement increases)



We’ve been dealing with the end of the garage main and its main vent.  This main has a Wet Return which runs on the floor back to the boiler. Is there a Wet Return for the other main? If you trace it out from the boiler, where does it go?  No sign of a Main vent or fitting where there might have been a main vent?  If the layout of the 2 mains is similar, it might be around the place where the piping drops to floor level to become the Wet Return.



Question: What type of main thermostat controls the boiler?   How do you control the heating in your unit?

- Rod

Anyone else having a problem with SF pictures when they click on them to blow them up?

I'm getting a whole different picture showing the boiler's sight glass

Dave in QCA

photo confusion

Rod, I am having the same problems with the photos.  I suspect that and older batch of photos and the new batch of photos have duplicate file names.  The second batch was uploaded to the website and produces the correct thumbnail, but when you click on it, the wrong file is enlarged.  Just a guess.

Dave in QCA

Probably another Main Vent

I notice that in the picture of your boiler, there are two risers going to the building.  Therefore, there should be two main vents, one at the end of each main before it drops and becomes a wet return.

As has been noted, the one main vent in the garage could be a problem if it is less than 24" above the water line.  Then you must have another main vent that you seem to have lost.



As far as your system banging and water hammer, I am stuck back at the point where you indicate that the tech put soap flakes in the boiler.  Now, he may have been referring to some of the boiler cleaning compounds.  If he put in washing soda, I don't think he would have described it as "flakes".  If he really did put in soap to clean the boiler, I can clearly visualize soap bubbles and foam going up out of your boiler, into your radiators, etc.  This would definitely cause a great deal of hammer.  Whatever he put into the system, it needs to be cleaned out and the skimming needs to be completed until the boiler is free of oily residue.  That could take a few days.   Once the system is clean, if you still have water hammer, that is the time to continue the investigation, but get it clean first.

SFbird

Thermostat, etc.

Thanks so much for your help, Rod, I am going to get downstairs and do some measuring before I can answer all of your questions on the piping but I can tell you that the boiler room is on the same level as the garage floor. The boiler room is located in the back corner (walled off from ) the garage. However, the boiler sits on top of an approx. 3" inch  high concrete slab. I will get you an exact measurement on that too.



The thermostat we have is what is pictured in my first posting. I am going to take some better photos later with the "real" camera so maybe when I upload them they won't be all sideways, etc. If I can locate any other thermostat on the actual boiler I will get a picture of it.



I have very little faith that our thermostat is actually doing anything at all. Our plumber has the "indoor" sensor wire threaded into our building's lobby ( same level as the garage) and there is not even a radiator in there (!). The "outdoor" sensor is hanging out the boiler room window and it is exposed to warm air from that room. It's also near the dryer vent from the laundry area. The boiler is set on a timer, which I think is the real "control". It is set now to come on at about 6AM until 10:30 and again at 5PM til around 10:30. Even on the warmest days here (it rarely gets hot, our summer has been nothing warmer than about 70 in the city), I can't recall a day that the heat has NOT come on. We control the temperature in our house by turning off a few or all the radiators if it's too warm, or by opening a window.



I don't know if the current "error" readings we have on the thermostat are just a result of our plumber not resetting everything since the install. My husband had been investigating a more efficient thermostatic system to try and increase our efficiency, but then we were sidetracked last year by our old boiler failing and our efforts to get going on the replacement. With 12 homeowners, sometimes things take a while to get done!

SFbird

Can't See Another Wet Return.....

Hi Dave, I don't see any other return pipes that are at floor level or below the boiler water line in the garage. The only low pipe I see is that one running along the floor in the photo. I will take better pictures today and try to upload them with a different program so they are not all screwed up when you enlarge them.



I am concerned myself about what our plumber used to clean the boiler. He never got here yesterday afternoon to change the pressure settings, etc. so I haven't had the chance to get any hard answers on the mysterious "soap flakes". The bubbles in the sight glass didn't thrill me either. I am fairly certain that they were not here "skimming" anything for 5-6 hours on Friday when he first fired the thing up, so I am hellbent on making sure it happens now. I am around today so I will post after I see him; he likely had an emergency yesterday, usually doesn't flake out and has been known to show up here at midnight in horrible weather if we have trouble, so actually a good guy....but if he doesn't get here soon I am ready to turn off the boiler as the noise is almost comical at this point and I don't want the system ruined.

Rod

Tekmar 279 Boiler Control / Thermostat

For a thermostat I would take a serious look at the Tekmar 279. It is designed to be used with steam systems and seems it could be ideal for your situation.

Here are a couple of links to literature on the 279.

http://tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/p0376_07.pdf

http://tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/279_d_06.pdf

- Rod

Hap_Hazzard

75 is shorter

From the picture that would be either a 74 or76, and I hope it's not a 74.

Rod

Hoffman #74 #75 & #76 Size

Hi Hap-  Your comment on being different sizes got me checking the Hoffman catalog. I'd handled both #75 and #76 before and they seemed about the same though I must admit I have never paid particular attention to physically comparing the two. 

The #75 & #76 are the same size and the #74 is 3/8 shorter. (see attached picture)

 I believe the only thing difference between the #75 & #76 is on the #76, there is a metal disk inside the orifice that acts as a one way valve.  I have seen them come with different exterior colors /finishes which may have made them look different in size.

- Rod

SFbird

Vent #

If my neighbor ever moves his truck, I will try to get back in that corner and see what type of vent it is... 

Rod

Return Piping

Hi- I’m till trying to figure out the return piping. Normally there will be one return for each steam main. There are 1pipe systems that don’t have return but it’s hard to believe this pertains to you system so lets see if we can determine where the other return is.



I blew up and “tweeked” one of your pictures of the boiler.  It seem the boiler is mounted on a platform and the return connection labeled “A” in the photo goes down below the platform. As it is most likely the returns might connect below the platform (raised floor). We need to look for pipes coming out from under the platform.  Are there any pipes coming out from the platform in the area labeled “B” ?   In the photo I see what looks like a pipe and have labeled it “C”.  Is “C” a return pipe(?) and if so  where does it come from and go to?



If possible you take some more pictures like the photo below but from farther back so we can see the piping and mains near the ceiling.



The other return may be buried  under the basement floor, is there any sign of that?



I’m sure your installer has looked over the system so he should be able to tell you something about it.  Ask him to show you where the steam mains run and where the returns for the mains are located. Also question him about where the main vents are located on each steam main?

 

Dave’s right,  let’s see if you can get the boiler water clean and the pressure settings down where they should be and then think about improving /finding the main vents later. However in the meantime the more we can learn about your system, the better we can understand it.

- Rod 

JStar

Banging

Is any of the noise coming from that horizontal section of the equalizer? That little bit of piping makes me uncomfortable.

Hap_Hazzard

How to tell them apart

Aside from the overall height-width ratio, take a look at those crimped grooves that run down from the top. Notice how they almost reach the bottom flange on the 75s, but on the other two they barely go past halfway.



I think you're right about the functional difference between the 76 and the others, and I wonder how long that check valve keeps working.



My only reason for pointing this out was that if it still worked as a vacuum system, the need for venting would be lower because the pipes don't have as much air in them at the beginning of a cycle. If it's letting air get back in, or if any of the radiator valves is, it would need to be replaced with a much bigger vent.

SFbird

Pipes / Vent in Corner

Okay, I got a close-up look at the vent in the garage and it is a #74. Is this horrible news?



Also measured the distance from the floor wet return pipe to where the vent pipe meets the dry return pipe ( "X") and that is 57" . The "Y" dimension (floor to horizontal ceiling steam main) is 87".



If you tell me that this is within the "sub-optimal to terrible" range, I am not going to be happy. We had this vent replaced last year in an effort to address the noise in the garage-level pipes. Our contractor (not the guy who did the boiler replacement but another firm that came in with lots of "great " ideas, but cratered on us later) actually shortened the pipe that the vent sits on top of because it had  previously been up at ceiling height, with the top going up a little past the drywall ( small hole in ceiling around it, it wasn't concealed). There had been some stains on the drywall that this contractor was concerned about, didn't like the idea of moisture going up there,but from what I am learning this could have been just a result of "wet steam" caused by some other flaw elsewhere in the system? If this little repair job, which was not cheap with that pipe being reconfigured, needs to be "undone", nobody over here is going to be thrilled about it.

SFbird

It's a 74.

Are we in more trouble?

JStar

74

The Hoffman 74 operates at higher pressures. It will not work on your system, unless you make high pressure steam ALL THE TIME. Change it to a 75, or Gorton 2.

SFbird

Okay, Will Get More Photos

Might not post them until tomorrow. Our plumber just arrived and my husband is down there with him now. Hope he isn't going to get mad that we are over-ruling him with advice from the Internet but at this point I am more concerned that our system isn't damaged.....

Will keep you posted and thanks again!!

Paul48

Lowwwww

Some noise may be coming from that Hartford Loop(if that's what it's being called) being too low. Look at the photo, of what appears to be a return running horizontal at the height of the boiler also.

SFbird

"HIgh Pressure"?

We are lowering our pressure settings now to the numbers recommended by NBC and Rod earlier. The boiler is not operating all the time but twice a day, everyday, all year for about 4-5 hours at a time. So this vent needs to get replaced? What about the height ratio that Rod was asking about?

Dave in QCA

A dimension

I think Rod was referring to the A dimension, which referrs to the lowest steam carrying pipe being at least 24" higher than the boiler water line.  The point X would be that point..  Hopefully it is 24" higher than the boiler water line.

Dave in QCA

confused by specs on #74 vent

I have not had the experience of actually using a #74 in a real situation.  However, the manufacturers information only references the maximum pressure being 35 psi.    Much higher than the maximum for the 75 or the 75H.  It does not reference a minimum pressure.  It would seem that even a high pressure system is going to be venting at low pressures, as the pressure is being built up.  I do however see a difference in venting capacity from the charts in Greening Steam.  The 74 is rated at .33 cfm and the 75 is rated at .5 cfm.



EDIT EDIT EDIT.... I made an error!!!!

The #74 vent is rated only at .033 cfm.  THIS IS WAY TOO slow for a main vent.  It is NOT a main vent and will NOT work.  It is a unit heater vent, ONLY.





It also occurs to me that if the pressure has been runing high, the A dimension would have been higher as well.  Lower pressure may help this system a lot.

SFbird

Another Question on this Peerless

Is the burner supposed stay lit for a long period of time, or just keep going through this little cycle of firing, going out, then pressure comes up and then it  fires again? My neighbor is convinced that our other boiler stayed "lit" for a lot longer. Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question....

Dave in QCA

When does this occur?

Does this occur as the system is heating up, before the radiators are all completely heated?  Or, does it occur only after the radiators are all fully heated and the pressure is built up? 

Dave in QCA

Another question for you....

I notice that you have replaced all of your radiator inlet valves, is that correct?  Are the people in the building using these to control their heat?  So, is it possible that if everybody is warm, they turn off their radiators?  And.... then the boiler continues to keep the steam up for several hours because you're running it off of a timer instead of a thermostat?   Just trying to get a handle on how your'e running this thing.

Paul48

Short Cycling

We could have told you your boiler was doing that. Insufficient venting and high pressure. The boiler is cycling rapidly on pressure.

Hap_Hazzard

When you get the new valve

it should say what its minimum elevations are. For a Hoffman 75 or 76, for example, it should be 6–10" above the main or return it's mounted on, and that main or return should be at least 18" above water level. (Actually, any horizontal steam-carrying pipe should be at least 28" above water level anyway.)



The 74 is intended for unit heaters, so they don't say how it should be mounted on a steam pipe. I don't think it's adequate for use on a main.

SFbird

No Turning Off Radiators When Heat is On

We have drummed it into everyone's head who lives here that they are not to turn off their radiators while the system is hot or "on". And we have told everyone countless times that the valves need to be set fully open or closed, not halfway. So, hopefully this is not part of our problem but, that said, sometimes people do stupid things and don't listen...