New Boiler, and Problems

SFbird

74 Vent

So, does everyone here think this vent needs to be replaced ASAP?

SFbird

Boiler Cycling and other news...

We lowered the pressure tonight ( "Cut In" to .5 PSI , maximum to 2). I am going to watch the boiler in the morning and time how often the burner is lighting.



Radiator noise right now in our unit is much less than before, occasion clicking from air vent + maybe a little rumble here and there but really a big improvement over this morning.



Plumber told my husband that he did the skimming and used the "right" soda stuff but I am not convinced that he did. The boiler was turned on Friday, the same day he flushed the soda cleaner through it and I know he was not here for the 5-6 hrs it would have taken to skim. He had some underlings doing the boiler build/install and they had not done anything when they were done except fire it up for a minute,long enough to see if it worked and to blow some nice oil fumes into my house. Some of my neighbors are still smelly an oily smell along with a lingering soapy scent.



The Peerless manual also says the unit should run 24-48 hrs before skimming so I am going to demand that it gets done in the next two days...

Hap_Hazzard

I do

But I also think it's important to find that other vent and see if it can be moved somewhere more accessible. You need to have adequate venting on both mains.

nicholas bonham-carter

How old was the old boiler?

And how exactly did it fail? I think the present method of operation contributed greatley to its early demise.

Short-cycling, and water-hammer are never good for a boiler, and will shorten its life.

I think the cleaning and lowering of pressure (2-8 ounces is best) will help a great deal. Next steps would be to solve the venting problem, by adding more(10 times more) main vents where they should be placed.

Finally the control system should be changed for a conventional thermostat or Tekmar 279 with outdoor reset. Do a search here for night time setback here and you will see that maintaing a relatively constant temperature setting is best for the system, and occupants energy and comfort wise.At this time the radiator valves should be immobilized open.

Getting a set of steam books here from the shop will explain to you and the contractor how these systems should be installed. I hope that the contractor measured the total radiation in order to size this new boiler, instead of reading the plate of the old one.--NBC

Dave in QCA

Turned of when cold?

What I am trying to figure out is how many radiators are actually turned on.  All of them?  Half of them, A fourth of them?   It sounds like the boiler is set up to come on 2 times a day.  Each time, it is running for about four hours, and even though the burner cycles on and off on pressure, the steam is pretty much up for a long extended period of time.  How cold is it in SF?  How hot is in in the apartments?  Why would your run the system in this manner?



If half of the radiators are shut off, then the amount of steam that the system can condense is half of what it would normally be.  When the boiler runs, it will build pressure very fast and shut off until the pressure gradually drops, then it will come on and run again until the pressure is built up, etc.   Isn't there a working thermostat?  It should be in a room that has the radiator turned on and the windows closed.  In mild weather, you won't ever build pressure unless you're coming out of a setback condition... which would be the case if you shut the boiler completely off except for two 4 hour periods each day.



Just trying to get a real handle on how this thing is operating.

Dave in QCA

Me Too!

The 74 is not a Main vent.  In fact, it is even slower than the Hoffman #40 radiator vents that you have.   I know it looks like a main vent, but it isn't.



I agree, change it.

SFbird

Pressure Down, No Heat Up Here Now

So, now it's 6:50 AM here, boiler is set to kick on at 6 but our radiators on the third (top) floor are not warm at all yet. Please tell me this could be something other than the pressure being turned down because my husband is giving me **** about it now.



Will get it together now and drag myself downstairs and see if I can tell what is happening. Plumber also reset the thermostat last night so perhaps this is part of the problem.

SFbird

Should I get a 75 or a 75H?

If I take it upon myself to stop by the plumbing supply place today, what should I buy?

SFbird

Again, which model 75 to buy?

75 or 75H? I might just go buy one instead of waiting on the plumber. I will just give it to him and tell him to put it on.

Dave in QCA

More importantly...

What temperature is it in your apartment?  What temperature is it outside?  Does the building need heat?



Pressuretrol adjustements are touchy.  The scale is seldom accurate.  I had to adjust mine according to what the pressure actually was on the gauge.  Then, I did have a problem that when it shut off on pressure, it did not want to come back on.  I had to adjust the differential until it worked properly.  The plumber should have observed it through at least one cycle to assure it was going to work.



Perhaps it has to do with the changes he made in the thermostat.   ???

Dave in QCA

75

Hoffman 75 is for up to 3 psi.  Your system, or any residential system should NEVER go above 2 PSI.  That is a standard operating limit for residential systems.  Hoffman 75H is for up to 10 PSI, you don't need that.   If by chance that store has a Gorton #2, you might get that instead.  It has a greater venting capacity and usually costs less.  However, even a 75 will vent 16 times more air than the 74 you have on there now.

Paul48

"More than meets the eye"

Replacing a steam boiler, involves more than sticking a new boiler in place of the old.Problems with the whole system have to be taken care of. You can't bring this guy in, and tell him to put a vent over here, and then he runs out the door. He has to be onboard with making the system right.The boiler should not have even been fired until after the system had been de-knuckleheaded.Stop, slow down and take a methodical approach. You may have to bring in a steam pro to create a punchlist for your plumber, if your plumber is not able to identify the problems himself.

Rod

"A" Dimension in the Garage

Hi- Good news! , you’re making good progress!  First of all as others have mentioned the Hoffman #74 is a very s-l-o-w vent!  A Gorton #2 for example has about 30 times the venting capacity!  The fact is that at this moment with the Hoffman #74 , in reality you have NO main venting on the garage main.



Why the third floor radiators are now cold? -  Setting the system pressure higher compressed the air in the steam line so that the steam could reach the radiators on the third floor. Beside having to do their normal job of venting the radiator they are installed on, this forced the radiator vents to do the Main Vents job of letting the air out of the steam mains.  Building pressure burns far more fuel and causes a lot of problems like banging etc and using the radiator vents under high pressure to also vent the steam mains will quickly destroy the radiator vents.

 

     What needs to be done is to replace the Hoffman #74 with a large capacity Main Vent (s)  like a Gorton #2. At least one vent to start with and possibly multiple vents. This way the air in the main is able to easily escape through the Gorton(s) vents and doesn’t block the steam from reaching the radiators. With the air out of the way there is no need to have high pressure to force the steam to the radiators.



I did a drawing (which I have attached below) which shows the height of the “A” Dimension on your Garage Main. The good news is that you seem to have adequate height so the main vent will vent properly at the present location. (though the won’t work at high pressure as the waterlevel in the return would then  back up and cover the piping to the vent.)



Gorton Main Vents - I imagine in San Fransisco you have more luck finding snow shovels than steam system parts so if one isn’t readily available local at a local supplier, go to Pex Supply on the Internet

http://www.pexsupply.com/

A lot of the steam guys on the Wall buy their vents there.

For main vents they carry both the Gortons and the Hoffman #75. Keep in mind the Gorton #2 has twice the venting capacity of the Hoffman #75.

- Rod



Edit:  Changed drawing to a PDF which should be easier for you to see and added Pipe Union to the Main Vent drawing and made a correction in text

SFbird

On it-

Out the door now; will locate the Gorton 2 locally if possible, there are actually a lot of buildings in SF that have steam systems....



Also going to take more photos with real camera now of returns, etc. to post in a few hours



And yes, we will see about finding a better steam system person here because the thermostat arrangement we have now is a complete joke on top of everything else.



thanks again!!

Paul48

Last

I'd say, at this point controls are last on the list. Proper system function is the priority now.Those are upgrades for a properly functioning system (IMO). What you have, can be moved around for now.

Rod

Finding a Steam Pro in San Francisco

Hopefully you can get the present guy you are working with to straighten things out for you.

Besides just installing the boiler he needs to make the whole steam system work properly.and efficiently.

We don't have many Wall members that I know of in the San Francisco area. One that comes to mind is Alan Forbes. He is located in Berkeley I believe. I know he specializes in radiant heating though I’m not sure if he does steam. However he is a good guy and regular Wall member and so if he doesn’t do steam, I’m sure he might be able to recommend someone to you.

- Rod



 Alan Forbes

Forbes Plumbing

(510)773-9870 cell 

SFbird

Ran into Plumber on Way Out

Okay, I have him on the vent situation.Told him to get the Gorton #2 and he also thinks we should modify that corner piping so the vent is back up higher at the main return level as before that other crew changed it last year. I actually found the section of pipe they had cut down with the old Hoffman 75h still attached to it laying in the floor.



He is going to try and locate other (concealed) vents but if we can't find more ( there must be at least one, I would think) do you recommend tapping into other main lines to add some? Also do you think the Hoffman 40's are adequate for the radiators if we get everything else right?



He is also going to skim the boiler again. He said they it the first day, I told him I was not convinced of that plus the thing was not running for any real amount of time when he did his soda soap flush.

Paul48

Mains

have to be vented properly. Don't make the same mistake that many others make, and crank the pressure up again. Make the system proper, and it will function perfectly at low pressure. The higher the pressure, the hotter the water has to be to produce steam. You might as well burn dollar bills to create steam under those conditions.

Paul48

Have

him look at the returns. At the point the dry returns go vertical, they must be at least 28" above the boilers normal water line.

SFbird

Vent Height

Hi Rod, there is space between the drywall/dropped ceiling and the plywood ceiling above to accommodate the vent on top of the main, as you indicated in your drawing. Do you think it is worth it for our plumber to restore the original height of that corner vent ? He seems to think it would be a good idea.

Paul48

Pictures

Can you get us some pictures of where the wet returns tie into the boiler, and some better pictures of how the return ties into the bottom of that Hartford Loop.I think he brought the returns into a tapping on the boiler and not the Hartford Loop.I just don't like the way that looks.

SFbird

More Pics

More Boiler Pics  ( I have no idea what the guys installed on that left side today, I think he said something about "condensate line" but the tech is Russian and I can't understand him).



There is only one wet return pipe going into the boiler room, nothing in the floor under the cement. That one you see in the earlier garage pictures running along the floor snakes through a storage room and then into the walls to the front of the building. I can't say for sure where it ends up, but there must be other vertical lines feeding it at the front of the property. Ignore that radiator in the one boiler room photo, someone left it there years ago....

Rod

Garage Vent New Location

Great! It’s good news to know he is willing to work with you towards getting your system operating properly.



Quote- “Okay, I have him on the vent situation.Told him to get the Gorton #2 and he also thinks we should modify that corner piping so the vent is back up higher at the main return level as before that other crew changed it last year. I actually found the section of pipe they had cut down with the old Hoffman 75h still attached to it laying in the floor.”



As mentioned earlier you could get away with the Garage vent in the same location. However it would be much better to raise the vent closer to the ceiling as this would further increase the distance between the Main vent and the “A” Dimension Height. (Sort of “insurance”

In my drawing I showed the “ideal” location on the top of the Steam Main Piping.. However in your situation with the Steam Main so close to the ceiling it would probably be better to just install the vent on the return pipe. (See attached PDF)  The drawing isn't to scale as I couldn't read your pictures that accurately. Measure the distance to the new location vertically from the floor and let us know what the new distance is between the new location (where the fitting enters the return pipe) and the "A" Dimension Height.



Quote-  “He is going to try and locate other (concealed) vents but if we can't find more ( there must be at least one, I would think) do you recommend tapping into other main lines to add some? Also do you think the Hoffman 40's are adequate for the radiators if we get everything else right?”



Yes, you are definitely going to have to get some main venting on that second steam main. Let’s see if we can find a return first before deciding what to do with the second main situation.  On the Hoffman 40s - Let's get the main venting straightened out first. The 40s are good vents though you may want to increase venting on some individual radiators



Quote- “He is also going to skim the boiler again. He said they it the first day, I told him I was not convinced of that plus the thing was not running for any real amount of time when he did his soda soap flush”



You need to get him to install a skim port fitting. This allows you to skim the boiler any time necessary. After the initial skimming period skimming is done rarely unless some work has been done to the system that has added contaminates. The problem is that in the future without a skim fitting installed it may be VERY hard to remove the skim plug in the boiler as it will have rusted in.  I’ve attached a pdf below on typical skim port setups.



After you clean a boiler with washing soda (soap)  you should give it a couple of flushings to clean out any residue soap. (Just like cleaning a BIG soup pot!)  Fill it up -flush it out! Fill it up- flush it out!  If the water seems clean then fill it up one last time, heat the boiler’s water and do a skim. Sometimes this (Just the skim)  needs to be repeated over several days as more contaminates work their way into the boiler water.

- Rod

Rod

Code Problems?

   Your plumber is correct in thinking that relocating the new vent to the old location would be better, though I'm a little concerned that the dry wall on the ceiling is considered a fire barrier and piercing it may open up problems with building code violations. They are a lot more strict when the building in multi occupancy than if its a single family home. In my experience California is pretty strict on codes of this type. Your plumber should what is acceptable locally code wise.

     Take a look at my drawing below titled "Garage Main New Vent Location"  While it might be better in the old location, if it is too much hassle it should probably be okay just raising the vent up the Return Pipe as much is reasonably possible. 

The big deciding factor on this would be how much extra height is gained

above the "A" Dimension Height to where the new vent would attach to the return

pipe.  Keep in mind that it should work (with low pressure) where it is located now even though it is close to the "A" Dimension Height.   Even a vertical foot or more higher would give you a lot more "insurance",

- Rod

SFbird

More...

So we have 4 Gorton #2's coming from the East Coast tomorrow. The city inspector was out today and apparently was "pro-venting" as well because now our plumber has opened up various spots in the garage ceiling in an effort to A) locate concealed vents and find the best locations to add vents. So far he has not located any other existing main vents so his strategy is to replace that existing/incorrect Hoffman 74 and then tap into the mains  in the vicinity of the other three corners of the garage so we will end up with 4 main vents at garage ceiling level.



I am attaching some pics of the lines I can see through the holes in the ceiling. Many are not insulated. How big of an issue is this? It never gets below 45 here in the winter but is this something that needs to be addressed?



Our plumber has been very willing to go along with what I am telling him to do but I still made a call to your guy in Berkeley as my husband is concerned that we are needing to watch over this WAY to closely to see that it is done right. Your help is greatly appreciated!!



UPDATE: it's gonna be three main vents at garage level now, he has some Hoffman's on there now that will be replaced with the Gorton #2"s tomorrow when they arrive in the mail. He is going to turn on the boiler now just to see how it does at the same low pressure settings. With those old vents I don't know if there will be a big change yet. He is going to do the "big" skimming tomorrow as well.

SFbird

No Logic....

....In the way we are running the boiler now, as far as I am concerned. The thermostat appears to be doing nothing; the timer controls when the thing goes on or off. I think folks here generally use only one radiator out of the two or three in each unit, except during the coldest months of the year (December to February). Even during winter, it seldom drops below 45 degrees here at night. However, our building is wood framed construction with very large living room windows. Every room has a window, most are single pane with very few exceptions. If it is windy ( and that is pretty much every day in SF) the air moves right through.  We run the boiler all year because the climate here is always chilly at night, average is mid-50's.



We are going to get the new boiler running right ( deal with the venting, skimming etc). THEN we'll look at a new thermostat system with the indoor sensor getting located inside one of the first floor units, instead of in the ground floor lobby as it is now, where there is no radiator!

SFbird

totally agree

I have a call into someone Rod recommended. Our guy now is a nice guy, willing to try anything we suggest, but it is starting to feel like everyone is feeling around in the dark and we need this to get handled. If I didn't have this forum as a resource I think we would be in real trouble.

SFbird

Don't Want to Jinx It But.....

We have heat! And it's quiet!!! Even just using the old Hoffman 75's and the useless 74 on the two new vents and the old corner one. I am super excited to see how the Gorton's perform tomorrow!



You guys are life savers.....what more can I say??

Hap_Hazzard

I understand your husband's concern, but...

This is just one of those areas that requires a considerable amount of knowledge, and because steam heating is becoming increasingly rare, it is difficult to find people who have that knowledge or see any compelling reason for gaining it. At least your guy seems willing to learn.



The good news is that it's worth the effort. Compared to what that new boiler cost, vents and adjustments are relatively cheap, but the value added is huge in terms of energy efficiency and comfort.



Insulating pipes is important. The heat lost from pipes can be a significant percentage of the heat your boiler puts out, and because it's not being delivered to living spaces, it makes some areas warmer than they need to be while leaving others less than comfortable. Imagine losing 15% of the heat you're paying for to heat garages and basements.



Many buildings have uninsulated steam pipes because they were originally insulated with asbestos. When the asbestos was removed, they didn't replace it with anything because fuel was still relatively cheap. As years went by, people just accepted bare pipes as the norm. Some people even justify it as a method for heating basements, but the heat is usually excessive, and because it condenses steam before it reaches the radiators, it degrades system performance. Raising pressure and increasing firing rates were tactics aimed a compensating for this, but every gain in radiator output brought more heat loss from the piping and used way more fuel than necessary.



But insulating pipes isn't cheap. I just priced the materials for re-insulating my own piping and I'm still in sticker shock, but I'm going to bite the bullet and do it anyway because I know it has to be done and I know it's going to pay for itself.

Rod

Main Vents

Hi- The main vents have to be located in a specific location on each main. They aren't randomly placed along the main. On a 1 pipe system ideally they should be positioned on the steam main after the last radiator lateral (pipe that connects the main to the radiator) but before the end of the main.  The alternate position for main vents is on the return piping before the return drops down to the floor level.  If more venting is required then the vents should be ganged together at the proper location.  Just for your information - a 1/2 vent pipe off the main has enough venting capacity to support two Gorton #2(s)  A 3/4 vent pipe will support 4 Gorton #2(s)

Trying those temporary vents out should give you an good indication of which direction the system is going especially after having the old 74.  I would think at a minimum you would need a Gorton #1 per main which I have mentioned is twice the capacity of the Hoffman #75. Save that old 75 you found . If you boil it in vinegar it cleans them out.

- Rod

Hap_Hazzard

Ah! The missing vent. Maybe.

I was just looking at the "dubious copper pipe" photo and it looked familiar. There's something similar in my house where someone piped in a big fin-tube convector with 1-inch copper off the end of one of my mains--right where the main vent should have been. Does this make any sense based on your understanding of the piping? Is it connected to the "ventless" main? If so, is it near the end, where the return connects?

Rod

Vents

Good News! Do all the radiators have heat?   As mentioned earlier the Gortons should make even more difference.

SFbird

Will Double Check Locations....

On the two new vents, but I think they are at the end of the lines as you describe, I just need to confirm the location of that last radiator pipe location you referred to. He has 3 Gorton #2's coming tomorrow , I hope this is okay......right now as I said below, we have *quiet* heat! I can't tell you how thrilled we are right now...

SFbird

Well NOW there is a vent-

On that dubious copper piping. It was vent-less over there yesterday. it is near the end of the return, front of the building. Our plumber is not real hardcore about getting rid of the copper...is it worth it?

SFbird

Yes....

In our unit, the two radiators we have turned on are hot and they are on different risers . We are on the top floor so I am going to assume the rest of the building is doing good too. I am waiting for feedback from our neighbors.



I should send you flowers or something!

nicholas bonham-carter

2 radiators turned on

when you have the right control system, everyone will be able to leave the valves open, and all will be comfortable.

Rod

Added Thoughts

It looks like you making really good progress in the right direction.  It will be interesting to see what the Gortons and the skimming do for the system.



A couple of thoughts:

Testing Vents- If you ever need to test to see if a main vent is working , rip a strip of computer printer paper about 1 inch  wide and tape the strip by one end to the end of a broom handle.  Hold the strip near the vent hole and it will detect air coming out of the vent hole. When the vent closes you often hear and audible click and paper stops moving.  

Also use the strip of paper to test your radiator vents. Never use you hand to test vents. Live steam is invisible and can give you a very BAD  burn!



Skimming- Skimming cleans the boiler water of impurities which “quiets” the surface of the boiler water.  Ideally the water boiling  in a steam boiler forms tiny bubbles like in a champagne glass rather than big bubbles like in a pan of water on the stove.  Violent boiling throws water particles into the steam  producing  “wet steam” which isn’t efficient.



“Wet Steam”  - Wet steam is steam which has a high amount of water droplets in it.

Steam’s temperature (no pressure)  is  212 degrees. The water particles are below 212 degrees (other wise they would be steam!)  Having  water particles in the steam cools it  so that the steam’s temperature  drops lower than 212 degrees.  Being lower than 212 degrees the steam immediately condenses (collapses) back to water and gives up its latent heat.  When this happens in the steam pipes it causes what you hear as hammering and that latent heat  doesn’t get to the radiator and  warm your room. The more heat that gets to the radiator, the faster the thermostat’s setting gets satisfied and the faster the burner shuts off saving fuel.



TRVs - Thermostatic radiator valves- If you’re not familiar with them, here is a brief description of how they operate. They don’t increase heating but will stop a room from overheating. You set them to the temperature you want and it will control the room heat to that temperature.  You can set the TRVs in the bedrooms to a cooler temp say 55 degrees and ones in the bathroom to  68 degrees.  On a 1 pipe steam system the TRV attaches to the radiator vent port between the radiator vent and the radiator. If you need more info let me know.



As to the copper piping - while it shouldn’t  be used for steam pipes, at this point I wouldn’t worry about it. You can always get it changed out if a problem develops. Having the pressure now at under 2 PSI really helps with the longevity of things like this.

- Rod

Hap_Hazzard

Copper

I'd put it in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category. If its not giving you any trouble it's best to let sleeping dogs lie, but if it starts leaking, that's when I'd replace it with steel rather than trying to fix solder joints.



The important thing is that this might account for why a second vent could not be found and give an indication of where it was originally located so you can add a new vent close by.

SFbird

Quick Question on this Vent Again...

Hi Rod,

His solution yesterday was to replace that section of pipe at the same old connection point with a longer one so that the vent is back up at the height of the main. Is this sub-optimal and should I ask him to move the connection itself higher? We discovered that it was actually one of his underlings who altered this pipe and put on that Hoffman 74 last February so he agreed to "make it right" at no cost but I want to know if it is worth pushing. I can get a photo later if this helps....

Paul48

Rod

Right now that boiler is not operating on a reset control, so, for now, TRV's can't be used effectively.SF....When you get that system cycling on and off with the thermostat, TRVs can really improve the overall comfort for the individual units.They are not all created equal, and some simply will not work(right out of the box), others will and take a few minutes for anyone to install.When considering, discuss it here first.