trouble with a new system

innate

Does this make sense?

All zones were shut down manually so that only the boiler and the water heater is working. Plumber said he is trying to see if there is a problem with the boiler or the water heater. If they keep working then he said the problem is in the walls. Does this make sense?

innate

How much water needs to leak out to shut the zones down?

How much water needs to leak out to shut the zones down? After a day you can hear the air bubbles going through the pump.

CMadatMe

Irrelevant

Zones shut when a thermostat tells it too. Valves don't care nor know anything about water. They are either open or closed and nothing more then a swtich to the boiler like the thermostat is a switch to the zone valve.

innate

could it be the water heater?

The plumber is switcjhing out the indirect water heater. he feels that perhaps the water heater is leaking air into the heating system. Is this possible?

Zman

System pressure

How are you determining your actual system pressure? Is it only the gauge on the boiler? I think you need to be certain you are getting an accurate read.Does the gauge fluctuate when boiler and circ. is on or off? How much higher  vertically are the problematic zones in relation to the boiler?

When you bleed, are you getting air? How are you bleeding?

What is the model of the black circ? How about the DHW circ?

Could you also confirm the direction on your circs? There is an arrow on the casting. The black and dhw should be pointed toward the boiler. The zone pump towards the zone valves.

How much piping is there between the boilers tee's (behind the vent pipe)? Is the pipe straight or is there a valve between the tee's

Carl

Zman

Just a Thought

Has anyone checked to see if the 007 circ before the zone valve is actually spinning? Remove it and check it? The black primary circ with it's relatively widely spaced tee's could be "ghosting" enough water to make you think the 007 is working.

Have you tried to confirm that the tubing is not kinked? Some of the radius's in the boiler room look a bit strained.The trim guy and the drywaller should not be able to hit tubes(nail plates). This makes me think the tubing install may have been a little sloppy. I could see a scenario where the tubing kinks when it contracts(cools) and unkinks when it expands (heats). What happens when you push high flow cold water through that loop?

Carl

innate

when you push cold water through the system

When you push cold water through the system is works fine for a while. It lasts a few days to a few weeks. Then it begins to cool down. Eventually it stops working until the zone is bled again. Today the plumber isolated the boiler and it began to lose pressure. For that reason he thinks that maybe the heat exchanger is leaking air into the system. We will see. A representative is supposed to stop by. 

innate

The problematic zones are the ....

The problematic zones are the higher ones. On the second floor. I'm not sure if he is getting air. I am assuming he does. If he isn't then it very well may be a kink because there are no visible signs of water anywhere. We will see what happens after they switch out the heat exchanger.

Zman

Heat exchanger?

Are you talking about the heat exchanger in the boiler?

What are your pressure gauges doing and do you trust them?

What is your total system height?

It is possible that the heat exchanger is leaking water into the condensate trap, creating negative pressure on an upper floor where air is entering the system. The fill valve would normally compensate for this.Not that that is a good thing!

I think he is throwing darts.

Mark Eatherton

I think he's throwing darts....

Maybe THAT's where the leak came from. You should NEVER throw darts in a mechanical room ;-)



I have had problems (numerous) with that particular pump. Your service tech/installer must be extremely inexperienced...



As for suspecting the DHW tank as putting air into the system, NO WAY. Pressure flows from High to low. If the heat exchanger in the tank had failed, and the potable water were at say 70 PSI, then the heating system would be at 30 PSI (assuming a 30 pound relief valve is on line) and the relief valve would be puking water.



This stuff is not rocket science. It's worse in some cases...



Honestly, it doesn't sound like you are circulating water with a pump. It sounds like you have some gravity circulation occurring that is giving the false indication of forced flow.



A quick and easy test. If you are fairly sure the pump is running, quickly close an isolation ball valve in that circuit. IF there IS flow, you should hear a notable HISSSss as the valve pinches off flow. If you hear nothing, you have no flow. I have had that particular pump work some times, and not work others. Which can be really confusing. Are the zone valves on the supply or the return?



Persistence is a virtue. You (and or we) will get it figured out. We always do.



ME

innate

heat exchanger

Yes, he is talking about the heat exchanger in the boiler.

The pressure gauge on the boiler drops when he isolates the boiler. When he pressure tested the zone he said it was fine. He did this many times since February.

The heat exchanger is not leaking water into the trap.

I must say this is a very frustrating experience.

innate

I posted some pictures on May 12, 2012.

I posted some pictures on May 12, 2012. If you need others just let me know what I should take a picture of and I will do it later in the day when I get home.

BTW- I want to thank you all of you guys for your persistence and help!

Zman

Focus on the 007

That one pump could be your entire problem. Bleeding may actually spin the pump and make it work for a while.Are the pumps in this system new? That one looks like it has been sliding around in a service truck.

I don't know how the service tech is isolating the boiler but it sound inexact at best.

Some techs have 2 annoying habits. One is to keep trying to bleed air even if it does not exist. The other is to always blame the boiler (usually the controls).

The reason I keep asking about the pressure is unless you have lower than atmospheric pressure somewhere in the system, Air cannot get in. In a typical 2 story house you might have a 20 foot tall system. Air could leak into the top of the system only when the boiler reads less than 10# and only if there is a leak on the top. If you don't believe it , look carefully into one of your boiler drains and open it up to see if air is entering. Be sure to weare safety glasses and you might want to keep a towel handy.

Carl

innate

Question?

If the other 5 zones work fine, do you still feel it might be the pump?

Zman

Gravity and ghost

For years hot water systems had no circulators. They were designed to run on gravity. Cold water is heavier than warm.

The black circulator on the boiler appears to be quite robust.The tee's between primary and secondary are a little farther apart than I would like. Some of the energy from the primary could be ghosting into the secondary providing minimal flows to those zones.

Carl



Is he getting air when he bleeds the system?

What is the pressure?

Paul48

Problem Zones

Could you describe where those 2 problematic zones are located  on the supply manifold? Are they the first 2 zones after the system circulator? Air will always work its way to the highest point in the system. Either the Spirovent is not working, and,or air is being introduced at the inlet(suction) side of the system circulator. For me,those are the only logical explainations that fit your description. I may add to that list after reading responses, but I don't think those can be removed.It's what makes this site work very well. Take a different approach.......Eliminate the things it can't be, and you're left with the problem.Dart throwing is a waste of time and money.

Charlie from wmass

Is that transformer rated for that number of

zone valves? if they do not open right they do not heat well. also is a 007 the right pump for this amount of radiation?

innate

Re: pump

I asked many times if that pump was sufficient. Every time I was told that it was. Early on the electrician had crossed a wire that kept the pump running. Although not enough juice to keep it running at full speed it kept spinning continuously without stopping. A rep. is supposed to stop by on Tuesday. I am cautiously optimistic that he may find the problem.

Zman

Hmm

You don't seem interested in a linear approach to the problem.

You are not going to solve this without eliminating some possibilities.

The only way air can possibly be entering the system is if you have low system pressure. You don't want to talk about pressures. 

You have a flow problem. Agreed? It could be air locked. You don't know if they are seeing air when they bleed.Do you have a pressure gauge? I think your system is piped in a way that should purge air quite well. If you are hearing lots of air you may have a clogged spirovent

Have you tried to close the valve before the 007 while the system is running? Does it make any noise as you close it? Do you know how little that circ costs? You don't get wear marks on the cover when they are bolted to flanges.

A 007 should be able to pump the zones you describe just fine. If the rest of the zones are similar, the sizing is likely correct.

As for the transformer concern, It may be a problem with all zones open. Post the va number on the transformer and you will have your answer.

Just because you don't know why you are being asked a question, why not post the answer? It is free advise.

Carl

icesailor

Pump:

Now wait a minute. You didn't say that before.

There is NO WAY a pump can do that unless you have a major electrical screw up. You need to be sure that the heating system isn't fed off of two electrical circuits, making the two circuits opposed and that you will have 240 volts between any hot legs. You also need to check polarity.

I don't like to throw sludge around but in my opinion, your service tech. is a little short in the tooth and is out in the pasture with the big horses.

The best way to check is to swap out that 007. You only need to undo the 4  5/16: cap screws holding the circulator body to the housing. For all the times the service tech has spent on (hopefully for you, not for him) unconpensated time, it would have been cheaper to change it in the beginning. Most everything I have heard you mention is "An Air Cause". Causes pulled out of thin air. He has a very poor understanding of what he is trying to do and how to do it.

First of all, IMO, if you run the system at 18# to 20#, there will be no air bubbles. Clamp or close down on all the air vents. Once purged, there shouldn't be any air in the system and it shouldn't appear with 18# of pressure. If you have a Spirovent, use a 1/2" IPS coupling and a plug or fit a reducing fitting to put a vent in the outlet but close it off.

I think you need some fresh eyes from someone who is long in the tooth to figure this out. You/we get a "feeling" for what is wrong with these systems.

IMO.

Paul48

Troubleshooting

It is A-B-C,in that order, and no other. If the boiler was isolated and lost pressure, where's the water? There's no mystery involved with that,find the leak.If the system is properly pressurized and the autofill is left open, water will be added to the system in a measurable quantity if there is a leak. If the problem is obscure, it might take a day to isolate, perhaps 2, not months.Your tech is stuck at the wrong end of the process.

innate

I'm just the homeowner trying to figure out whats wrong.

It's not me. I'm just the homeowner trying to figure out whats wrong. If I have omitted a few answers it's because I don't have a clue.  I have mentioned the pump and other issues many times, but my plumber seems to want to do things his way. The problem has been going on since February. No matter what he does, it's the same result. The zone cools down.

I will let him bring in the rep one more time and then I will have to hire another company to figure things out.

Paul48

We

are all frustrated for you. We know it's not you.It's painful to watch him take wild stabs at the problem, and settle on a possibility that could easily be verified or discounted in short order.

Zman

You can do it

Sorry,

I didn't post because I wanted to help your heating guy fix your boiler.He is clearly a Knucklehead.

I think you could work this one out.

Carl

Jean-David Beyer

I am just a homeowner too.

What is so frustrating to me is that your heating guy could have ripped out your boiler, and near-boiler piping, and replaced the whole thing with a new system in two days or so. That would not be the best way, of course, but it would have got the problem, if that is where the problem lies.



Instead, he has taken six months to not fix the problem, or even identify it. As someone else already said, he is clearly a knucklehead, and it seems to me you are being too patient with him. Even if he does all this for free, you will need this resolved before the heating season starts, and tomorrow will be September first.



The first thing, it seems to me, that he should have done is identify the problem, not start swpping parts. And if swapping parts, he seemed quite amazingly stupid. It seems to me almost impossible that the indirect DHW heater could be leaking air into a pressurized system. It might leak water in, but that would raise the system pressure, causing the pressure relief valve to weep. And so on.



If the problem is air getting into the baseboards, radiators, etc., it would be desirable to see if there are any high spots that collect air. And even then, perhaps putting an automatic vent valve in each high spot is not the answer. My entire upstairs heating zone is baseboard, and it has no vents at all. It does not get air except when it was initially filled. After purging, there were enough little bubbles left that probably collected up there, that you could hear them at first. But after a while, they slowly dissolved into the water and were removed by the microbubble absorber (fancy air scoop, but more effective; Spirovent and Taco make these).



So if the problem is air locking the system, his first task is finding out how it gets in. His second task is to figure out how to prevent this. Perhaps his third is to figure out how to get rid of it, but if he does the first two, the third may be unnecessary. He seems to have no clue how to troubleshoot your system, and this must be, at least in part, because he does not know how it is supposed to work.



Would you want to go to a surgeon who does not know human anatomy?

innate

NEW BOILER

Factory rep was at the house yesterday. He authorized a replacement of the entire boiler. Let's see if this solves the problem. 

innate

The new boiler was installed on 09/20/12

The new boiler was installed on 09/20/12. I did not think it was the boiler, but who knows, I'm not the specialist.

I did not run it regularly because there was no need to.

When the temperatures dropped the system began doing the same thing. The one zone shut down. Yesterday I opened and closed the feed side to that zone once or twice and then I closed the return side of that zone about 1/2 way for about a minute and then opened it all the way again. After that it seemed to warm up.

Any idea what that might mean?

innate

The new boiler was installed on 09/20/12

The new boiler was installed on 09/20/12. I did not think it was the boiler, but who knows, I'm not the specialist.

I did not run it regularly because there was no need to.

When the temperatures dropped the system began doing the same thing. The one zone shut down. Yesterday I opened and closed the feed side to that zone once or twice and then I closed the return side of that zone about 1/2 way for about a minute and then opened it all the way again. After that it seemed to warm up.

Any idea what that might mean?

Zman

You can lead a horse.....

Post your location and hopefully you can get a referral. Folks on here have given you endless advise yet still the knucklehead wasted a perfectly good boiler.The house still doesn't heat correctly.

Your problem is not that complex. You just need a real heating pro to troubleshoot it.

Carl

innate

The new boiler was installed on 09/20/12.

I did not think it was the boiler, but who knows, I'm not the specialist.

I did not run it regularly because there was no need to.

When the temperatures dropped the system began doing the same thing. The one zone shut down. Yesterday I opened and closed the feed side to that zone once or twice and then I closed the return side of that zone about 1/2 way for about a minute and then opened it all the way again. After that it seemed to warm up.

Any idea what that might mean?

innate

Location

The house is in North Jersey.

Zman

J star

J star is somewhere near you. You might drop him a line.

innate

ureka!

Purging the system repeatedly for over a year and switching out the boiler was not successful. The manual calls for a 0014 pump. The pump installed was a 007. A 0014 was installed and the system has been working fine for over a month. My question now is how to stop the banging in the walls? Is that a normal occurrence? can it be fixed? I thought pex was supposed to eliminate that from happening.