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trouble with a new system

innate
innate Member Posts: 35
We just renovated our home. We had a new Ultra 230 Weil Mclean Boiler installed with new Pex and baseboard. 2 zones continue to shut down After purging they are ok for 1 -3 days and then they shut down again. The thermostat is calling for heat but no heat. Pressure testing shows no leaks. No water anywhere. Any advice?
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Comments

  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Can you describe better?

    What do you mean by a zone shutting down?



    Do you mean the thermostat for that zone stops calling for heat?

    Do you mean the zone valve does not open or the circulator for that zone does not run?

    Do you mean there is no call for heat reaching one of the boiler's inputs?

    Do you mean that all the circulators and zone valves work properly, but the boiler puts out no heat?

    Is the U-control of the boiler set up correctly?

    Do the zones actually work, but the boiler circulator is not running?

    Is the outdoor reset triggering the warm weather shutdown?

    Is the reset curve wrong?

    Was the boiler installed according to the manufacturer's instructions?
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    It appears everything was installed correctly

    Do you mean the thermostat for that zone stops calling for heat? THE THERMOSTAT NEVER STOPS CALLING FOR HEAT.



    Do you mean the zone valve does not open or the circulator for that zone does not run?  WE CHECKEC THE ZONE VALVE. IT IS OK.



    Do you mean there is no call for heat reaching one of the boiler's inputs? THE THERMOSTAT IS CALLING FOR HEAT.



    Do you mean that all the circulators and zone valves work properly, but the boiler puts out no heat? ZONE VALVES WERE CHECKED.

    Is the U-control of the boiler set up correctly? I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS.



    Do the zones actually work, but the boiler circulator is not running? THE ZONES WORK THE CIRCULATOR PUMP ALSO WORKS.

    Is the outdoor reset triggering the warm weather shutdown? NO. ALL OF THE OTHER ZONES ARE WORKING FINE.



    Is the reset curve wrong? NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS. THE ZONES WORK FINE FOR A WHILE AND THEN THEY BASEBOARD BEINS TO COOL DOWN FROM THE DISTAL END. EVENTUALLY IT\'S ICE COLD. THE PIPE LEAVING THE BOILER IS HOT. THE RETURN IS COLD.



    Was the boiler installed according to the manufacturer's instructions? I GUESS. Reply
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    It appears everything was installed correctly

    Do you mean the thermostat for that zone stops calling for heat? THE THERMOSTAT NEVER STOPS CALLING FOR HEAT.



    Do you mean the zone valve does not open or the circulator for that zone does not run?  WE CHECKEC THE ZONE VALVE. IT IS OK.



    Do you mean there is no call for heat reaching one of the boiler's inputs? THE THERMOSTAT IS CALLING FOR HEAT.



    Do you mean that all the circulators and zone valves work properly, but the boiler puts out no heat? ZONE VALVES WERE CHECKED.

    Is the U-control of the boiler set up correctly? I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS.



    Do the zones actually work, but the boiler circulator is not running? THE ZONES WORK THE CIRCULATOR PUMP ALSO WORKS.

    Is the outdoor reset triggering the warm weather shutdown? NO. ALL OF THE OTHER ZONES ARE WORKING FINE.



    Is the reset curve wrong? NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS. THE ZONES WORK FINE FOR A WHILE AND THEN THEY BASEBOARD BEINS TO COOL DOWN FROM THE DISTAL END. EVENTUALLY IT\'S ICE COLD. THE PIPE LEAVING THE BOILER IS HOT. THE RETURN IS COLD.



    Was the boiler installed according to the manufacturer's instructions? I GUESS. Reply
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Warranty

    Your new equipment should be under complete parts and labor for 1 year.  I would call the installing contractor and they can help you out.  It's probably something minor, but that's their job to keep you satisfied.  It's unusual to purge your zones that frequently.  While they are there, ask them to explain the operation sequence so you can be familiar with the new equipment.



    Mike T.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    installed correctly

    "Do you mean the zone valve does not open or the circulator for that zone does not run?  WE CHECKEC THE ZONE VALVE. IT IS OK."



    Since you have two zones, are both zone valves OK?



    "Do you mean there is no call for heat reaching one of the boiler's inputs? THE THERMOSTAT IS CALLING FOR HEAT."



    Does the boiler know it? I.e., when the thermostat calls for heat, does the boiler fire and run using the correct reset curve?



    "Is the U-control of the boiler set up correctly? I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS."



    The U-control is the circuit board in the top of the boiler that contains most of the electronics that runs the boiler and associated circulators. It listens to up to three thermostats (one of which is usually an indirect hot water heater). It must be programemd correctly and wired correctly for the boiler to work properly. It is all described in the installation manual.



    "Do the zones actually work, but the boiler circulator is not running? THE ZONES WORK THE CIRCULATOR PUMP ALSO WORKS."



    If that boiler is installed according to the manufacturer's installation manual, you will have at least two circulators. One in the primary loop, and one in the secondary loop. If you have two, you will have two zone valves. If you had no zone valves, you would have three circulators. And one more if you have an indirect fired hot water heater. So if you are trying to heat both zones, is the boiler circulator running as well as the system circulator? If the system circulator is not running , the hot water will come out of the supply pipe of the boiler, go through the closely spaced Ts, and return immediately to the boiler. In that case, the boiler will cycle pretty fast. Are the temperature sensors attached to the secondary loop fairly closely to the closely spaced Ts? Your system is piped primary-secondary, I hope. That is what Weil-McLain require.
  • Slimpickins
    Slimpickins Member Posts: 323
    pics?

    Also if you post some pics of the piping at different angles, we can tell you if it truly is installed right.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    The installer has been working on it since January.

    Initially there were 3 leaks, one by the floor guy who hit pipe. One by the trim guy and another by the drywall contractor. Understandably they showed up, water dripping etc. But this other stuff is baffling. Is it possible that the indirect water heater could have a leak that is putting air in the system? Could it be a kink in the pex? Is it possible to have a leak that has not showed up in 5 + months? It's not normal to have to bleed a system every three days.
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Test, Leak check

    Close off you water supply to boiler, Waite the 3 to 4 days like you said.  Check pressure reading on T&P Gauge.  It should not drop at all.  3 leaks from rogue nails concerns me.  Yes pic's would help.  Who is purging the zones?  Are you sure they are completely free of air?  Air will not be introduce to boiler circuit due to Indirect tank.  If in fact there is a leak, It could be anywhere that you cannot see.  Leaks usually make a mess if in conditioned space.



    Mike T.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,085
    What's Shutting Down

    When you say shuttig down, what do you mean? Boiler locks out? What error code are you getting? You need to post pics.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    edited May 2012
    Actually, he was the highest priced plumber.

    Actually, he was the highest priced plumber.

    The boiler does not shut down. Two zones get cold. Pipes leaving boiler are hot. Baseboard and returns are cold. Zones valves are OK. Thermostats are calling for heat. The zones get purged. They work for 1-3 days and then... IT STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,085
    Post Pics

    Can you post pics of the boiler and zone piping? Sounds like its an air issue but if your purging it out and it comes back something is allowing air into the system.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Did

    the installer put any means of removing air from the system automatically? If it is not present, every time you purge the system,you add some air that is entrained in the water. If the piping is not done correctly, and there is no means of removing that air,it will wind up seperating from the water and cause problems like you have. Take some good photos of the near-boiler piping.....stand back, and get some views of how everything is piped.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    trouble with a new system

    Can't get in till tomorrow because the floors are being finished. Plumber said that he thought it could be the water heater. Perhaps it's letting in air. He bypassed the water heater to see if it happens again. I will post some pics tomorrow.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    pictures

    I hope these help. I have attached some pics. Thank you guys for all your imput.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    P/S

    Where's the boiler pump for the boiler loop and the closely spaced tees into the secondary side?

    Does that follow the manufacturers piping diagram for their installations?
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Where's the boiler pump for the boiler loop

    I think it is the black one to the left of the two PVC pipes.



    But it does not appear to be piped exactly according the the I&M manual. The supply from the boiler shrinks down from the one-inch pipe from the boiler even though the boiler loop should be a minimum of one inch.



    I just found the PRV in another picture. It seems to be in there sideways, and I think that is not code, but I am not a contractor and I could be wrong about that.



    If the plumbing is somewhat like mine, The T that is on the return side of the closely spaced Ts is right above the black circulator. The supply side T is hidden behind the two white pipes. According to W-M. they should be no more than 12 inches apart. Mine are 1 1/4 inch, and they are 5 inches apart (4 pipe diameters).



    It is easier to see on mine. (Installation by my former contractor.)
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    edited May 2012
    The water heater was disconnected to see if it was the problem.

    The one zone shut down again so that was not it. The two zones that shut down were pressure tested while all of the others were closed.  No Leaks. Baffling!
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    can't put my finger on it

    but something about that piping doesn't look right. 
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    2 zones shut down

    could you describe where those 2 problematic zones located in the house ?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Why

    does the vent pipe look discolored?
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    The zones that are shutting down

    One is on the first floor. There is a baseboard on an inside wall it loops up the wall and across to an outside wall. It comes down and up to cross over two bay windows before it goes back to the boiler. The other is above it in a master bedroom. The master bedroom seems to be the room that shuts down most often.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    The zones that are shutting down

    One is on the first floor. There is a baseboard on an inside wall it loops up the wall and across to an outside wall. It comes down and up to cross over two bay windows before it goes back to the boiler. The other is above it in a master bedroom. The master bedroom seems to be the room that shuts down most often.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    edited May 2012
    .

    .
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Is

    it possible that configuration of supply, and expansion tank off the bottom of the seperator is interfering with the function of the seperator?
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    system

    tell you contractor to install flow meters http://www.pexsupply.com/Wirsbo-Uponor-A2640015-TruFLOW-Visual-Flow-Meter-015-to-08-gpm-8345000-p on those 2 loops and monitor flow conditions.
  • Slimpickins
    Slimpickins Member Posts: 323
    2 bad zones?

    I bet the zones in question are hooked up wrong at the manifold. The supply of one zone may have the return hooked back up to the supply and the other zone pipes may both be hooked up to the return. I've seen it many times involving pex. Just cut the crimp rings at the manifold of the zones in question and blow in one tube and make sure you have the supply with its return hooked up in the right locale.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    ?

    "They work for 1-3 days and then... IT STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN".
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    2 bad zones

    Are those zones completely cool, or there is hot water at the zone valve at entrance to the zone?
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    edited May 2012
    After bleeding they are hot.

    Within a few days the one baseboard on the zone gets cool. By the end of the day both baseboards are cold. At the zone valve the pipes stay hot. On the return they are ice cold. If left alone they cool down by the zone valve also.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    edited May 2012
    Zone

    How many Feet is the run? What is pressure difference at beginning and end of the run?

    Please close all other zones and run system with only one problematic zone.see what happens
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    edited May 2012
    It's a long run.

    Maybe 85-95 feet from zone valve to return. It's a long run. he tried that. It ran hot for a few days and then the same thing happened.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    edited May 2012
    Pump

    What pump make and model?



    It ran hot for a few days and then the same thing happened.

    could you be more specific. it run hot for few days when all zones were turned off by the valves?
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    zones turned off at the valves

    It ran hot with all fo the zones turned off at the valves. I will be on site tomorrow. I will check to see tha make and the model of the pump.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    zones

    you have to balance your zones. turn all valves on return to 45 degree, except those 2 zones. later you have to install balancing valves on each zone,

    Also, do you have differential pressure bypass valve?
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    TACO 007-F5

    ATTACHED IS A PICTURE OF THE PUMP'S TAG
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    PLUMBER BYPASSED THE EXPANSION TANK

    FOR 2 DAYS THE ZONES RAN HOTTER THAN THEY EVER DID. THEN I LOWERED THE HEAT FOR THE CLEANING CREW. THE NEXT DAY I TURNED IT BACK ON AND HAD THE SAME PROBLEM.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    PLUMBER BYPASSED THE EXPANSION TANK

    FOR 2 DAYS THE ZONES RAN HOTTER THAN THEY EVER DID. THEN I LOWERED THE HEAT FOR THE CLEANING CREW. THE NEXT DAY I TURNED IT BACK ON AND HAD THE SAME PROBLEM.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    System Pressure:

    I think that you need to raise the system pressure. It is too low.

    Raise it to 18# to 20# with the by-pass lever once you have it purged. Or, just raise the pressure. You need to squish the bubbles. If you by-pass the expansion tank, the system pressure will go up when heating, squishing the bubbles or air. Once flowing, the bubbles are absorbed. If the pressure isn't high enough, you will get the problem. Especially if the boiler is below the first floor in a two story house.

    My controversial opinion.

    Use a #60 Extrol and run the system at 18#. For me, almost always, all problems go away.
  • innate
    innate Member Posts: 35
    rep came by

    He recommended that a few flanges be changed. The problem persists. Air is getting in somehow. There are no signs of a leak anywhere. The walls, floors, basement, ceilings and crawls spaces are dry. It's been nearly six months.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    Hydrogen production???

    If the water is not properly treated, it may be creating its own chemical reaction, and the "air" may be hydrogen. Easy enough to test. If it flairs when vented with an open flame (BIC lighter) it is hydrogen, and yo need to treat the water per the manufacturer. "air" doesn't just appear out of nowhere.



    Has your water been properly treated?



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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