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Steam Heat Not Reaching certain areas in old building
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Read
his posts. It's a hundred and fifty year old building. He probably has more problems than a sagging pipe. He's new to the building, and trying to get acquainted with the system. That's just one of the many things he'll have to check out.0 -
Insanity???
I don't think anything said to date is insane. If it were that simple, and that easy, ANYONE coiuld figure it out,
Every "opportunity" here at the Wall is viewed as a learning experience in my minds eye... Maybe not exactly applicable to this situation, but applicable to someones situation, some where.
Insanity is doing the same thing and getting the same reuslts, but expecting something different to happen...
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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PICTURES OF PIPE SETUP IN BOILER ROOM
If any more pictures are needed for more info just let me know and I will post them
1st pic is pipe setup going up to building from boiler room below the basement...
2nd pipe is the old trap that was just replaced...
3rd pic is boiler info....0 -
PICTURES OF PIPE SETUP IN BOILER ROOM
If any more pictures are needed for more info just let me know and I will post them
1st pic is pipe setup going up to building from boiler room below the basement...
2nd pipe is the old trap that was just replaced...
3rd pic is boiler info....0 -
Questions abour picture #1
You mentioned previously, that when you opened a valve upstream of the tank trap, you got gallons of water.
1) Is the valve you opened the ball valve with the red hose hanging off of it?
2) What was the water coming out like? Red and rusty, nasty black with chunks, clear, hot, cold, warm? Was it under pressure or just dribbling out? Did it bubble or pause to let air back into the hose?
Following that mess of pipes back up, there appears to be some sort of header with the leg on the right capped off, and a leg in the middle, open to atmosphere.
1) Is that a correct description of the pipes?
2) How many pipes come together before they exit and go into the trap and tank?
This picture appears to be the wet returns coming back from the radiators.
On second thought, that valve and hose assembly could be for flushing a filter.
1) Does it collect chunks?
2) If so, what do the chunks look like?0 -
Main vents
MAIN VENTS
Do you know where they are, what size they are, and do they work?
Do you have vents at the top of the vertical risers?
When you fire up the system, the areas that get hot first, do the vents whistle and release air for a long time? (long time is greater than 5 minutes)0 -
traps
You stated that the one and only trap was that one located above the condensate tank. I believe you are mistaken. The two-pipe radiators should all have traps on them, and most are probably not functioning correctly.Meaning you are most likely blowing steam down the return, hence the need for a Steam trap just above your condensate tank, and your inability to get all the radiators to work at a decent pressure setting.0 -
156 years and counting
Let's see some pictures of the radiators-one pipe, and two pipe, especially the valves and outlets. Also let's see the boiler supply piping, in order to track down the gremlin in the system.
Remember that these systems operate best, and most economically at a few ounces of pressure, and someone in the book-keeping department is going to compare the cost of heating with some other building, and think that it has cost too much, and it has at those pressures, even though it has been like that for a while.
Let's keep on with the diagnosis.--NBC0 -
The trap that was just replaced
appears to be on the condensate line going into the tank. It does not belong there.
Not sure how the system was originally configured, but if it originally had a tank there (and it probably didn't), the Dead Men would have installed traps or water seals out in the system to keep the steam out of that line. A single trap at the tank inlet allows the returns to fill with steam, which wastes steam and kills the pressure differential between the steam side and the return side. I'll bet that's why you're having trouble getting certain rads hot.
This "master trap" is a sure sign that knuckleheads have touched that system. And you can't fix stupid! If you have a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" (and you should), you'll find Dan addressing this on pages 31, 163, 174,181 and 187.
We'll have to establish that these return lines were "wet", i.e. they had water standing in them all the time. If so, the proper solution is a "False Water Line", shown on page 31. We've built these and they work extremely well- and they have no moving parts!All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
More pics of radiators, pipes, etc.....
Thanks again everyone....
To answer the questions,...
Before everything was changed, there were globs of black sludge coming from that long straight pipe behind the valve that had the hose on it in the old setup...since the switch to new pipes, a new and wider pipe replaced that one pipe, and every now and then, I will open it for 30 seconds or so when unit is running as a way to try and clean out any sludge or buildup in there...
Larry, no it wasn't the ball valve but the water would be redish for about 2 or 3 seconds, then eventually clear up as it was coming out and is hot water..
1st picture is picture of one of the radiators in same room still not getting hot....
2nd pic is the one on right's piping(1pipe)
3rd pic is of the one on the left sides piping
4th pic is the air valve used on both radiators
5th pic is the piping setup on both rear radiators in same room that work perfect....
6th pic is the new trap and new piping setup...(compare to older pics I sent last week)
7th pic is the rear of boiler piping
8th pic is of boiler...
If any more info is needed from me, just let me know..now that i have this picture thing figured out, it should go easier now.....
thanks again!0 -
pictures...
sorry they didnt attach in the last post for some reason....0 -
One pipe radiators...
Those are one pipe radiators shown in your second set of photos. It has a non electric thermostatic radiator control valves on it. It has an air vent, and I am not certain what its rating is, but I suspect it is probably abused to the point of needing replacement.
Also, on your returns, I see a LOT of check valves. Those are not normally seen in a simple one pipe distribution system (meaning the steam goes up the same pipe the condensate comes back down from) and is indications of another problem. One pipe came before 2 pipe, and interfacing these two types of systems must be done exactly, or problems will arise.
Quite honestly, and I know your budget is tight, but your city would be light years ahead to hire the likes of Frank WIlsey and Gordo Schweizer (All Steamed Up, Inc) to come out and assess your system and write a recommendations report.
Your system has been knuckleheaded to the point that the only way it can work is to drive the pressure MUCH higher than is necessary, which is wasting fuel, and equipment. You shouldn't need more than 2 PSI on a system of this design unless there is something (remote fan coil units that depend on pressure to push condensate up hill)
Their expenses wil be MORE than worth the money. It would probably pay for itself in the first few months of operation in fuel savings alone, to say nothing of eliminating all the complaints, which to your department would be PRICELESS....
Also, as has been explained, you need to purchase the steam bible (The Lost Art of Steam Heating) available from the book store on this site. THe more you know, the better off you will be.
Click on this link to get hooked up with Frank.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/79/All-Steamed-Up-Inc
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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good advice [if you can take it!]
whether that is possible or not to get one of our best in to solve these problems, a layout drawing in plan and elevation would be helpful with the rads, and other elements numbered would help us see how the steam was supposed to go from the boiler to the radiators and come back as water. also note how the air gets out as steam is starting to rise--"air is the enemy, to be chased out like the raccoons from the garbage cans"!
later on, some tape on the pipe to show the direction of pitch could help to find sags which are holding enough water to form an air-lock.
the aim would be to get this system working as it once did before someone in the accounting dept thinks that an old badly maintained system is inherently inefficient only because it is steam, and replaces it with something newfangled, [which also no one understands with its own set of problems].--nbc0 -
Testing, testing, 1,2,3...
Try this with the radiator that doesn't work. Turn off the steam supply valve. remove the non electric TRV and vent. Slowly open the steam shut off valve. If you hear air coming out, either your TRV or your vent, or both have failed.
If you don't hear any escaping air, the steam supply/condensate is clogged, and not allowing the steam in or the condensate out.
Eventually, the air will be completely expelled, and the radiator should get hot.
Another thing to check is that if the air vent will not act as a vacuum breaker, that radiator cold be holding condensate in a vacuum, whereby not allowing any steam in, or condensate out. Generally speaking, when the boiler shuts down, and pressure drops, a vacuum should form, thereby allowing any condensate being held by a vacuum to break its hold and allow the condensate to drain back to the heat source. It may be necessary to put a vacuum breaker on this radiator to relieve the vacuum.
Your condensate return system is already in trouble due to improper device locations. It could be compounding your problems.
Now, you've got some homework to do. Get back to us with the results.
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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Mark...
Thanks for the advice..Before I got a chance to read your posting, I removed the air valve from both radiators, and went back about 4 hrs later, and both radiators were warm...(the one on the left of the room was warmer than the one on the right). They werent as hot as the rear 2 that always have worked, but they are warm......I remove the non electrical TRV and just but the air valve itself back on..Not sure if maybe the TRV was faulty in both units all along?....Is this a sign of anything?...are they pooled?...what can I do to get them as hot as the rear?...The fact that they are now getting warm I assume is a step in the right direction.....
Thank you0 -
HMMmmm...
It is a step in the right direction, and I have seen two defective TRV's in the filed of the hundreds I've deployed. But what really concerns me is that when you pulled the vent that air didn't SCREAM out of the vent hole. Kinda indicates that steam is not making it up there, indicating a blockage in the main, or the individual branch serving these radiators.
If the pathway were clear, the vent hole should have been whistling like dixie. Did you shut the steamer off and allow it to relax/breath? It is possible that the steam access to the radiator is being blocked by condensate held in a vacuum. If the steamer did shut down and pressure went to zero, and the condensate was released back to the steamer, upon restart, those rad's should have been whistling. Another give away would be gurgling at the radiator inlet. Steam pushing through trapped condensate.
Silly question, but are you absolutely certain the steam control valve to the radiator is open? As you probably know, ASSumptions will get you into trouble.
But it is progress.
With the system pressured up, and the TRV/vent pulled, carefully hold your ear next to the vent hole and see if you can hear anything. Breathing out, or breathing in, or panting like a dog.
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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Mark...
Yeah that was the first thing i checked because when they did work that one time it was during court and people were dripping wet with sweat so I remember that I shut them off on that day, and re-opened them the next morning, and then they never worked again....Yesterday is the first time there was actually heat rising to them since and I think that was because I had the vent off for so long...But as you said, there is nowhere as much air pressure coming from the valve on these 2 compared to all others.....0 -
Try this...
Keep the radiators OFF at their valves. (my assumption is that they can be FULLY turned off.). Let the system come up to steaming pressure. Remove the TRV/vent assembly. Open the radiator control valve and see if you hear gurgling at the inlet, or air hissing from the vent hole.
If you hear gurgling when charging with steam, the radiator is trapped. If you hear nothing, the stoppage is further upstream. It could be a simple as the branch tee serving these radiators are coming off below the flooded condensate return, thereby not allowing steam to even reach the radiator. And that would point you back down to the mechanical room, with all of those returns, and all of those check valves, and the improperly located trap. And all of these problems need to be diagnosed "Eyes/Hands On" by a competent contractor, like Steamhead. Too many things going on at once for photographs to be able to do any justice to the problem. An infrared imaging camera could possibly be a very valuable tool at this point in the game. Any chance of borrowing one from the Fire Department and taking pictures of the condensate return tree in the basement? Also makes diagnosing bad traps on the 2 pipe part of the system a snap as well...
ME
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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156
You're troubleshooting from the end, You need to be starting from the beginning.Where's the vents, where's the traps? Ultra-sonically test the traps.Repair or replace any bad traps.They need to be serviced and or replaced every 4 or 5 years anyway.I wouldn't even deal with the one-pipe radiators yet. Just my opinion.0 -
Paul
Thanks Paul...However one of the biggest issues in all this is cost....The city has next to no money so repairing something that is working regardless of whether it's working properly or not, is the last thing on their minds....I followed the pipe all the way to the basement area and the pipe stays hot until the 2nd floor where it just becomes warm...
Through the years to compensate for all the traps that would need replacement, they seemed to bypass all 20-30 of them and put the one right above the return tank...In a nutshell, through the years, whatever cost saving technique could be implicated to the system to save money regardless if it was the right way or not has been done which leaves me with this nightmare....0 -
Sad
I hear you. The bean-counters don't realize that all the repairs would be paid for in savings, in no time at all. You could probably improve that system's effieciency by 40 or 50%0 -
Typical government mentality
you can't fix stupid!All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
keep up the good work anyway
if you keep on making a repair plan, it may be possible to present it in a different light they would pay for. perhaps when faced with a choice of repair now for x, or replace later for 15x?--nbc0 -
If
the trap housings are still on the radiators, check this out http://barnesandjones.com/resource/repair-elements-cage-units/0 -
System diagram would be VERY helpful to you.
156,
I strongly recommend making an accurate system drawing. Start off at the boiler steam main and follow the pipes. Information you would need:
1) Steam mains: Pipe size, length of the mains, EVERYTHING that connects to them, vent locations, make, and model. Include the height above the waterline of the boiler sightglass. Do the steam mains tilt back to the boiler or is there piping coming off of the mains that eventually goes back to the condensate tank or the bottom of the boiler.
2) Vertical risers: Pipe size, length of the riser, Vent make and model if it has one. The number and size of the radiators connected to it. Whether the radiator is a one pipe or two pipe configuration.
3) Return piping: What is connected to it, Height above sightglass waterline.
4) Condensate tank: Is the tank above or below the waterlevel in the sightglass.
5) LUMPS IN THE PIPE: record every trap location, size, manufacturer, and model. Look for places where things used to be, but have been removed. Knuckleheads like to remove things "that don't work". Verify that all ISOLATION valves are actually FULLY open or fully shut. Any valve that is partially open is suspect.
Speaking of partially open valves, what is the ball valve in your "back of the boiler" picture connected to?
The knowledge you gain by understanding your system will make operating so much more easier and efficient.
Larry C0 -
0
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NBC
Thank you for the link...However my building is not on there...This is a city Hall/Municipal court......Still as historic as those in that link.....0 -
Pride in historic buildings
Maybe that site would still like to have a well-taken picture by yourself.
When people discover their courthouse on some distant site, they can often have a renewed sence of civic pride. Along with that may go a willingness to maintain the building better. In the current economy, there will not be any talk of building new, so why not keep the old in good shape?
Or am I being grossly naive?
I just hope no one gets an idea that these problems are the result of "inefficient steam".
"what do you expect-it's steam"
When you get finished with this, every one will be surprised how comfortable an old system like this can be.
Getting to that point may be difficult but not impossible.--NBC0 -
NBC
Thanks to you and all the others on this site feeding me info and suggestions, and a tech that was actually willing to listen and show me things, the heat is working the best it has in 15+ years according to various people throughout the building and it's not a blasting scorching heat as it was before,...it's a slow, calm, comfortable heat if that makes any sense at all....
After everything, I got it working at about 6 PSI...i Know it is still high, but it is cut down to half of what it was running....
So far this winter, I have gone through about 1400 gallons of oil...That is with the heat running about 4-6 hours 5 days a week....In your opinion, is that good or bad....I can get back to you with the square footage of this massive building....0 -
Free(?) outside assistance in surveying the steam system.
156,
Poking around on the Barnes and Jones website that Paul48 gave the link to, they appear to offer a free survey of the structure to help you map out what traps you have and what they can sell you. Perhaps it would make sense to see if they could come out and perform the survey of your steam system. Poke around on there website. I saw other interesting documents and forms that may be of use to you.
I am not affiliated with any heating or plumbing company or manufacturer.
Congratulations on lowering the pressure and having everything working. Here is to hoping that you can get it down to the proper range of less than 1 psi and significant fuel savings.0 -
I'm not shy...
I've gone through about 1100 gallons of oil at our museum this year; 7200 heated square feet on three floors. Roof insulation, but no wall insulation; mixed post and beam and balloon timber framing. That help your comparison?Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Maybe
Barnes and Jones would like to help preserve history, help you out, and use your building in advertisements. That would be a win-win if you ask me.Nice job, by the way.You're taking the time to understand the system, and that will pay you back, and the town, ten-fold.0 -
Free survey
Thanks again for that link...I will look at it more in depth when I get a chance to this morning....To have them do that service for this old historic building that Abe Lincoln once spoke at would be great....I will keep you guys posted once I find some more info out about it.....0 -
Abe Lincoln's speech
I am sure the system was silent, with no waiter-hammer while he spoke!
In these days with the present group of politicians, it might be a benefit if there were water-hammer to prevent them from speaking!
Keep up the good diagnostic work, you will get that system sorted out before too long.--NBC0 -
NBC
Thats too funny NBC....Good point though0 -
ANY UPDATES ?
156,
Any updates?0 -
We would all like to hear of progress
Hopefully, your employers will not get in your way of making these corrections a bit at a time maybe, but with certainty towards a system that functions as it once did when first installed with silence, economy, and comfort! Good luck--nbc0 -
Larry C.& NBC
How are you guys...I havent had a chance to come on here to update you guys on whats been going on here but here it is in a nutshell....
I had a pipe rot out last week and by the time it was noticed, I had a boiler room with water up to my ankles...The pipe was changed and upon changing it, it was determined that the pipes leading from the backfllow preventor were clogged not allowing water to pass through...They were somewhat unblocked by tapping the pipe with a wrench..(I could hear the sound of water passing through....
Once up and running after the installation of the new pipe, Another rotted out causing even a bigger mess down there in the boiler room...(Probaly because from unblocking the other pipe it put a little more added pressure and just burst it..it was so rotted out, my finger could go through it..)
The tech fixed that one the next day, and changed the backflow preventor,and made some added adjustments to the piping, and this morning things are running great..(no leaks)...the 2 radiators that were not working are now working....Building is going good as of now...knock on wood
On an added note a new question has came up...There is a certain department complaing of a smell of mold in their office, and it has been smelling since the heaters started working in their office...Apparently they havent worked for years, and now they are...The answer to them not working, the old Building Supt. had 4 electrical heaters installed in their office...(talk about wasting money)...could the smell be because of the steam heaters or no?0 -
smelly rads
great to hear from you! glad all your rads are working.
that smell probably comes from a small leak, which keeps everything damp when the system is running. you may be able to use a small ultra-violet flashlight to see where the mould is, and therefore where the leak may be.
as the pipes get old, and rusty with frequent additions of fresh water, they will give you surprises--another reason to keep the pressure down, and fix even the smallest leak, rather than use the band-aid approach.--nbc0
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