Steam Heat Not Reaching certain areas in old building

156yroldCityHall

I am in a building built in 1856 that uses steam heat for most areas...The building has 4 floors and there are 2 radiators that are ice cold after heat has been running, while there are 15+ radiators throughout the building that get scorching hot....the building is 4 floors, and the radiaitors in question are on the 3rd floor, while others in same room work fine...I changed the air valves and still nothing...

Could this be an issue with the 1 and only trap that is on this system?(located right above the return tank)? Some radiators are a 1 pipe, and others are a 2 pipe....Not too sure what is original



Also, can anyone recommend the best epoxy to patch up pinhole sized leaks...



thank you

nicholas bonham-carter

Old city hall

The mixture of 1-pipe and 2-pipe radiators in a system makes diagnosis a bit more difficult, but not impossible. Where is this building? Can you post some pictures of the boiler piping and radiators?

The aim is to restore the system to it's original state of operation, which I am sure was even, quiet, economical, and comfortable.

What pressure is presently set on the pressuretrol, and is the gauge working? What fuel is being used?--NBC

Jamie Hall

Start tracing pipes...

Assuming that the vents really aren't working.  And assuming that their valves are fully open.  You need to find out how these two radiators are fed (I presume, since they have vents, that they are piped as one pipe) and how far along whatever distribution lines -- risers, mains, what have you -- you do have heat.  Until you do that, it's going to be very hard to figure out the problem.



More likely than not a sag or sags -- but until we know how the steam is supposed to get there...

156yroldCityHall

Nicholas...

I can't upload pictures to this work computer, however, the system is ran off oil...The building is located in RI...I had someone come last week to take a look and he said that the steam trap was clogged and that may be the problem, however, these same 2 radiators were hot the first time I started the heat this yr, and only that first day did they get hot...

These 2 radiators in question are a 2 pipe...

It almost seems that through time in this building they switched some to Air Vent Systems, or Hot water, but I am not too familiar with this setup hence the posts in the forum....

Each morning it sounds like 100 hammers hitting pipes throughout the whole building.....



Hope this info can help a little more...



Thanks

156yroldCityHall

Jamie..

Thanks for the reply Jamie..I have traced the pipes and the radiators in the same location on the 2nd and 1st floor directly below the ones in question, and they are hot to the touch...

These 2 have worked for one day  since I have been here, and that was last year on the first initial day that heat was put on for the season....Every other day since then they have not...

LarryC

Water trap

If the radiators worked once and then stopped, I think that steam got into the radiators and then condensed and pooled to prevent anymore steam from entering the radiator.

Are the two radiators in question tilted so that any water in them can return back down the pipe? 

Are there any reducers installed on the piping and are they concentric or eccentric?

Is there a long horizontal run in between the radiator and the steam riser?  Is it tilted to let the condensate drain back to the riser?

156yroldCityHall

Larry

Larry...When I look at both they seem to be just level with no tilt to them...However, these are over 100 yrs old and they have worked in the past..This has just been an issue for the past 3 yrs or so...The open close valve on the radiator on the left side of the room is on the left side of the unit, and the one on the right side of the room is on the right side and both have the same looking connection on the opposite side but without the valve...

No reducers to my knowledge on the piping

If they have condensed and pooled, what is the cure for that if any?...

Forgive me if I do not seem too savy when it somes to this matter....

LarryC

Use a level not an eyeball.

To paraphrase a president or two,  Trust but verify.  In my experience eyeballs work if the background is level.  Being that the building in 156 years old, I would rather use a level on the radiator and the piping.

Remember that the air has to leave before the steam can enter.  When the system is running, does the piping going to the radiator valves get warm?  If so, steam is trying to get in.  Is there an air vent on the radiator?  If so, can you open it and does air come out?  If the air comes out, that means steam is coming in.  If no air is coming out, then no steam is coming in.  Why is the steam not coming in?



Why doesn't the air normally leave?  Excess steam pressure, bad vent bad trap, plugged line or oriface.  What is the system pressure at the boiler?  I hope it is less than 2 psi.

Jamie Hall

Ah... two pipe?

As Larry C noted, if they worked once and then not again, the most likely problem is that condensate got in there somewhere -- and can't get out again.



If they really are two pipe, the connection opposite to the valve should not be a plain elbow (in most cases -- there are exceptions) but should look a litte odd.  It is more than likely that it is a trap of some kind.  These have been known to fail shut, which will shut off the heat to the radiator (steam can't get in if the air can't get out).  If you could post a picture of them, it would be helpful.



But that is not the only possibility.  Any sag or dip in the pipes leading too or from the radiators may do it too; it is amazing how little it takes.



Your comment to NBC that every morning it sounds like the Anvil Chorus also suggests that you have trapped water in the pipes (that sound is water hammer) -- and probably not just in this instance.



So what's to do?  It will take some work on your part -- but you need to check all the lines you can find.  Every single line needs to be able to drain freely, in one direction or the other, back to a steam main or a dry or wet return.  Verticals are no problem, of course -- but any line which is more or less horizontal must be pitched to drain, and the only way to be sure of that is with a level.  The Mark I eyeball is a wonderful thing, but it isn't good enough.  Anything which isn't pitched -- whether you think it is causing a problem or not -- needs to be adjusted so it is pitched.  Be especially careful of sags in longer runs.



Second, check the pressure at which your boiler cuts out; it should be less than 2 psi.



Third, check the water level in the boiler.  There may be a mark on the boiler to show where it should be.  You might even get lucky and have the manual.  But absent that, you won't go far wrong if the water level is about in the middle of the sight glass.



Fourth, I get the impression from your post that this is not related to a change in the boiler; if it is, please tell us what was done...



We'll figure it out.

156yroldCityHall

Jamie...

Thanks for the reply...

I took your suggestion and took a level to both radiators and you are right..there is a slight pitch to them...also, the pipes underneath both radiators are ice cold, however as I stated earlier, the radiators directly underneath the 2 in question on the 2nd and 1st floor are hot....

I flush the boiler every other day and the water level in the glass tube on the boiler is a little less than half after i do so and when running it fluctuates between a half and a quarter full....I opened a valve to a pipe right before the trap and gallons and gallons of water just came gushing out...However the return tank felt warm so the water is reaching it, but obviously not all of it.....

The PSI is at 10psi when running and when cut out it drops to about 6....

I just took the air valve off each one and tried building up pressure by putting my finger over the whole and heard air building up in one of the 2 radiators but it wasnt much at all ..Actually after i heard the gust of air I couldnt get any from it again.....

I will try to upload pics to my posts as soon as i find a wire for my work phone to do so.....



Thanks again

BobC

Pressure too high?

That water in the sight glass should not vary more than +/- 1/4", it it clean? Also high pressure makes all problems worse in steam systems. If the boiler is operating above 2psi that is a problem, what is the pressuretrol set to? give us the reading off the front tab and off the white wheel inside - The tab should be set to 0.5PSI and the wheel should be at 1. The picture below shows you what the inside of the pressuretrol looks like - careful the switch wires are carrying 24 or 120vac. It is possible the old pressure gauge is lying, you might want to add an auxiliary 0-3psi gauge so you can see exactly what the pressure is.



Bob

156yroldCityHall

Reply to Bob C or anyone who can help....

Thanks for the reply Bob...The pressuretrol is set at...

DIFF-3psi

MAIN-12psi

These are the setting that they have been on since I've been here and who knows how long before that....The water in the tube is crystal clear and is now at the half way point....The pressure gauge goes to about 11psi when running and down to about 6psi when it cuts out....

The trap is getting replaced today...Hopefully with this getting replaced the problem will be fixed...

Is it possible that the radiators in question need to be bled?...If I loosen the union on the pipe will that drain any water that is in there and possibly fix the problem?

nicholas bonham-carter

Bleeding the radiators

The air vents on the radiators should release air from them so steam can go in and warm them up. Pressure above 2psi interferes with their operation, and can force water up into the returns to a point where it can be mixed with steam, producing the "anvil chorus". When the trap is replaced, then get the technician to reduce the pressure to 2 psi max. Consider putting on a 0-3 psi gauge so this maximum can be verified. If you really want comfort, then a 0-16 ounce vaporstat will have better control.

When first installed, the system would not have had a tank, but just a carefully piped gravity return, which works better, if you can retrofit it.--NBC

BobC

Why so high?

Assuming this boiler is only being used for heating it should not be running over 2PSI. Is there a chance the boiler was once used for another process as well as heating - bootleg still ? Does that pressure gauge read zero when the system is cool? Also some old pressure gauges lie but you said the pressuretrol is set to 12PSi with a differential of 3PSI so it would be cycling between 9 and 12 PSI which is about what your seeing.



A lot of air valves on steam systems don't work right on pressures above a few PSI and some can be damaged by high pressure. Steam traps can be destroyed by high pressure also so I would dial that pressuretrol down to 1.5 to 2PSI for the cut out. There are some pressuretrols that are made for higher pressure and that may have to be replaced if it is a high pressure unit. When i had a pressuretrol on my boiler I kept the front tab set to 0.5PSI and the white wheel inside set to 1



Post some pictures of the pressuretrol.



Bob

Jamie Hall

Oy...

Well, assuming your pressure gauge is even remotely correct, and the settings on the pressuretrol are somewhat correct, there's a whacking good chunk of your problem right there.  At 10 psi, the steam pressure will raise the condensate in the returns 20 feet.  The returns aren't supposed to have water in them.  Second, the pressure will have -- not might have, will have -- destroyed at least some of the vents and traps.  Third, it will keep condensate from returning to the boiler when the system is running.



And so on.



Turn it down.  2 psi max.  Then go around and check all your vents and traps, and replace the ones which are toast.



You mentioned somewhere in there something about a return tank; if the pressures are correct this shouldn't be necessary (nor should a pump, if you have one).  Can you clarify that?

156yroldCityHall

Jamie

Thanks everyone for your replies....Jamie, it has a return tank and 2 pumps with one working...As mentioned in a previous post, these radiators in question worked one time since I got transfered to this building 2 years ago, and that was the first initial time I put the heat on last year....AFter that, they havent worked since...

The guy who retired from here that I replaced was the type to call techs for everything that went wrong, therefore had no knowledge of the system to pass on to me...  

There are a few radiators in the buiding that work but at times only half of them heat up so I have to bleed them out of sometimes around 3 gallons of water....

I hope to learn more about this system through all you guys helping and other resources ....

I can try to take some pictures and post them but I don't know if the work computer will allow me to do so.....

Paul48

I think

your last post tells the whole story.Your problems are all related to condensate.

156yroldCityHall

Paul48

So what do you suggest Paul48?

Mark Eatherton

Three key words...

And Jamie said it first. TURN IT DOWN...



2 pounds with a 1/2 pound differential will make a WORLD of difference in comfort, and save energy...



All that will take is a screw driver. Get back to us with the results once you've done it.



ME

Owen

Sympathy for the Devil

You have my best wishes.

First thing I'd do

(after all the stuff these guys have already mentioned)

is to get the City to buy you some of Dan's books.

I've had to buy my own where I work.

(Honestly, I'm not sucking up, Dan.)

That information will help tremendously with what you are facing

if your duties now include operating an old boiler.



Second thing, if you took over from an old guy who didn't understand

what he was doing then no one else there probably does either.

You may have a free hand to do what you will learn needs to be done.



Watch out for the politics though. The Mayor and council

might suddenly decide they're boiler experts, especially if there are

a few problems as you try stuff.



Last, anything major you want to try, run it by these guys.



What a resource!

Paul48

No

More to say, than that.I take it back.....Why would anyone put a trap just above the condensate tank?

nicholas bonham-carter

trap above the tank

i would try to restore the system to its original configuration. in 1856, i am sure they neither had a tank, and pump, nor a need for one. how long would have the heating engineer [at that time] lasted if he were to say "that's just the way steam heat is-uneven, and noisy"-not too long!

i hope the powers that be will soon realize how fortunate they are in having a new building engineer who gives a damn, and unlike his predecessor will seek more information on the problems at hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we look forward to continuing to help out with advice. where are you?--nbc

156yroldCityHall

NBC

I am located in Rhode Island...We changed the trap yesterday and lowered the P.S.I. Down to about 2 and 2hrs after the fact the heat wasn't reaching areas that would normally be hot...I bled them and waited a little longer and building is at a comfortable temp but I am unable to check the 2 radiators in question at the moment as there is court in session in that room...

The pipes were so caked up with mud and sludge that there was no room for anything to get through....Is there an additive that anyone can recommend that I can add to help dilude all the sludge throught the pipes?

Paul48, I was just asking for suggestions on the issue you thought it may be...I wasn't the one who installed the trap....

Steamhead

In your quote

"I opened a valve to a pipe right before the trap and gallons and gallons of water just came gushing out...However the return tank felt warm so the water is reaching it"



Where is this trap located? If it's on the inlet to the condensate tank, that's WRONG.

Paul48

Sorry

I know you are dealing with the cards you've been dealt. I figured you probably had nothing to do with the traps location.

nicholas bonham-carter

Old system

I went to school in Middletown R.I. so I wonder if I might have seen this courthouse in the early 60's in Newport. Little would i have known at that time whether the judge was warm or cold!

You can always refer any of your superiors here for more information. Just ask him whether he would like things working properly, or maybe for some reason badly (we know about that as well )

When you say you bled the non-functioning rads, how did you do that?.--NBC

Paul48

That's

what I read as well. I think the best thing you could do, is to do some studying about steam system designs. There are countless resources available online.Then take what you have learned and find things you believe are wrong. Then come back with what you found. Over the years that poor system has been bastardized by people that didn't know what they were doing, but little by little you can undo the damage.

And where are these pin-holes located that you want to patch?

156yroldCityHall

Paul

Thanks Paul and everyone else for your replies...



Paul the pinholes were on a few pipes here in the basement but those are all set now....Maybe I am completly wrong or just too confusing so today my goal is to post pictures of the problem....After the trap was changed to a new one, and the P.S.I. was lowered to about 3, the  2 radiators in question still did not work...

If condensation/water has pooled in them would I have any luck by loosening the union and drain any water that may be resting in that area?....

nicholas bonham-carter

diagram needed

can you make a diagram of the layout of the pipes in the basement, and indicate which radiators work, and which do not? would you say all the 1-pipe radiators are either working. or not working? or would it be all the radiators on a riser are working or not.

when we all see what is wrong here, we will probably whack our foreheads, and ask why we didn't think of that first! 3 psi is still a bit high. the "scorching hot radiator" is a sign to me that the pressure is too high.--nbc

156yroldCityHall

nbc

Now, since the psi was adjusted down to 3, about 80 percent of the radiators in the building are still ice cold since running the system since about 6am....System is working the woorst I've seen it now....

When I go home for lunch i will get the wire for my phone to finally upload some pictures

nicholas bonham-carter

getting worse before better

i can see that the pressure has been raised over the years to compensate for some fault in the system. normally the system would only need a few ounces of steam to warm all the radiators [i have 55] simultaneously. this has been burning a lot of extra fuel.

steamhead has seen a red flag in the condensate tank/trap. so pictures of that and the supply piping would be useful.

just remember that the system must have been even, comfortable, and quiet in 1856, when new. the task at hand is to undo any knuckleheadeness, and make it work as it once did.-nbc

156yroldCityHall

I GOT IT!

Well after further frustration, I went downstairs and adjusted the pressuretrol up a couple P.S.I. and sure enough, every last heater in the building is now working...People in the building say that certain ones that are working now, havent worked in over 15 years,....

The system is now running at about 8 or 9 psi and is doing the best job i have seen it do in the 3 years that I have been at this building....

Is anything going to happen if I continually run it at this amount of PSI?

nicholas bonham-carter

effects of high pressure on system

when the system is operating at pressure over3 psi, the vents and traps have problems working properly, and then become paperweights [or xmas tree ornaments when polished up]. to add further insult to injury, the fuel use goes up considerably. certainly the new trap has something to do with that, and maybe will not be such a problem after the pressure pushes it open for good.

i realize with the occupants of the building feeling cold, that there is not much time for diagnosis. if you are on duty at night, then you could find out where the bottleneck is in either air escaping or steam distribution.

maybe while the pressure is able to force the system into operation, feeling where the steam arrives first will give some clue as to what the problem is.

some fire departments have infra-red cameras, and if you can get one of them to take a video of the steam starting to rise into the system, you may see the hold up.

don't forget the pictures, as you will want a plan of action when they get the fuel bill!--nbc

Paul48

Anyone agree

Main vent?

Jamie Hall

Progress

is always a good thing!  Even if sometimes it seems to be taking a step backwards (and sometimes one has to step back before being able to march on forwards).



You shouldn't have to run your system at 8 to 9 psi -- but it if is running at that, my comment is not "don't do it" but "let's find out why it needs that much pressure".  And, in the meantime keep the customers satisfied -- they are the ones, after all, who pay the bills.



It is possible that at that pressure some of the widgets may be damaged, but most of them probably won't -- they can usually handle 10 psi -- but on the other hand, they may not work right, either.



It is clear to me that, over the years in your system, some things have failed and some have changed.  The condensate tank and pump must have been added at some point to compensate for something that wasn't right (quite possibly high pressure); our job now is to figure out what isn't right and what can be done about it.  This will probably take some time and patience on your part (it's easy for me to say, sitting in my chair here!) in looking and looking at the system and figuring it out.



Keep us posted!

Mark Eatherton

I agree... Main vent.

I suspect that he will come back later and say that those radiators that got hot are cold again. The reason he is hhaving to run that high a pressure is because his vents and possibly traps are bad, The steam, being at such a high pressure is compressing the air bubble into the radiators, giving a false sense of heat whenthey first heat up.



A system that was designed for gravity flow back to the steam source should not neeed more than 1.5 to 2 pounds of pressure, ever.



The fact he mentioned pin hole leaks is also a dead giveaway of venting issues. No vents = carbonic acid = pin hole leaks.



He's still got issues...



ME

theduke

STOP THE INSANITY

Steam heating is VERY simple. Steam goes out , condensates and runs back into boiler. Cold rads have to be checked as follows: Steam vent working? Turn off working? Rad sloped properly allowong condensate to return? PIPES SLOPED PROPERLY????? Steam traps allowing condensate to return fast enough? NOTEZ BIEN STUDENTS******* A pipe full of water , not steam,  feels hot.***** Rads beyond a water filled pipe do NOT get hot.****** A pipe full of pinholes means a pipe full of water ( at least some of the time) . ITS VERY SIMPLE ; IF YOU HAVE A WATER BLOCKAGE STEAM DOES NOT GO THRU!!!!!!! But guess what ? The pipe still feels hot.

Paul48

Wait !!!!

Let me get a pen. Steam goes up.....condensate comes down...right Dutch?

Jamie Hall

Simple enough in principle...

but I've seen some pretty sharp guys look pretty baffled when faced with multiple problems and knuckleheads in a bigger system...

Yois

Jumping in late...

but theduke is absolutely right.  Has anyone suggested checking the main pipes in the basement for bows or sagging?  Have you heard any water hammering?  If you have water pooling in a main pipe, you'll hear what sounds like a sledgehammer banging the pipe.  This phenomenon is physically equivalent to thunder and lightning.  The added pressure you're using is helping get over the "bump" of water.

Paul48

In

a building that old, and that big,just finding the decades of screwups can take a while. It should go faster, now that royalty has arrived though.