School Steam Systems

Mark Eatherton

The biggest loser of energy in educational buildings...

is the VENTILATION system. They pull 100% O.S.A. 24/7, and wonder why their gas bills are SO high. There is a real simple answer, and you already have a DDC system available to generate a "demand" signal. When humans are in high congregation, they consume a lot of oxygen. They expel carbon dioxide, a deadly gas in high concentrations...



In a school setting, the use of class rooms etc are fairly predictable, and when not occupied DO NOT NEED CONSTANT VENTILATION... Do they really think the desks care about the quality of air :-)



In gymnasium settings, and other public meeting venues, the occupancy and use is a variable that can be tracked through the concentration of CO2. If the building is empty, the CO2 will be in the normal background ambient range. Shut the freaking OSA dampers OFF, not just minimum. When there are bodies in place, the CO2 will rise (proportional to number of people and physical activity) and you can then ventilate only what is necessary to maintain a healthy environment. These sensors are off shelf and used on a regular basis. The algorhythyms have already been written to employ them in the field.



But now, you are venturing into an area that few people dare to tread. If you think it was tough trying to get them to turn operating pressures down, wait until you approach them about messing with the hallowed HVAC systems :-)



Persistance is a virtue. Take tiny steps first, and giant leaps will follow. As it pertains to steam efficiency, you have a LOT of places for transfer efficiencies to be bad. From the flame to the water is just the first. Once kicked to steam, you have system losses (uninsulated mains, etc) that can degrade steam, and once you actually get the the heat exchanger to go between steam and water, there are even more "issues" including fouling of the steam and water sides of the heat exchanger. And, once you are through that process, you will (have already) discover a WHOLE HOST of other problems, including air binding, expansion tank location in relationship to the circulators, degraded pump impellers, heat exchanger (water to air) fouling, flow imbalances, flow restrictions, and on and on and on. But those are fairly easy to track down and fix once you "get it".



Then there is the human physiology/ psychology part of the equation. Many of the good ol' gals remember when there was actually a "THERMOSTAT" hanging on the wall that could be adjusted. In many cases, the environmental conditions should be reasonably adequate for the occupants, but due to the fact that the secretaries/staff have absolutely NO control over the system, they are not comfortable. Give them what they want. Install a good old round T 87 series thermostat, and even go to the trouble to run wires from the stat to the space above the ceiling, but don't connect it to anything. Now, when they feel like it, they can walk over and give the stat a spin, then off comes the sweaters, and life is all well. BTW, it is called a "Secretary Stat" for a reason...



You've got lots of work to do, and once you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issues are NOT the operating pressures of the boilers, but everything else down stream of that point, then your bosses will WANT you to do your thing, and of course THEY will take credit for your actions. As our host has pointed out many times, you MUST show them what's in it for THEM.



I would think that in these tough economic times, that a school district like this would LOVE to have people with your mindset on board. But then again, I don't think in bureaucratic terms (Use it or LOSE it). I think like a business person who has to maintain profitability to remain afloat (Waste not want not)...



Good luck in your ventures. We are here to help.



ME

Owen

Attitude

I think like it's a business still. I can't help it. Most everybody else has the "it's not my money, who cares, turn it (whatever) up", etc. and on and on.

Jean-David Beyer

BTW, it is called a "Secretary Stat" for a reason...

They called them "psychological thermostats" where I used to work. The building was heated by forced air in the rooms and steam baseboards around the periphery where the only windows (floor-to-ceiling) were. Cold air (about 50F and hot air (about 90F) was ducted around the building, and each room was supposed to have a mixing box to regulate how much hot and how much cold was delivered to the room. The thermostats were pneumatic, as were the mixing boxes.  When the room was close to the thermostat setting, it worked proportionally.



Eventually, some of the mixing boxes failed, and we could not get any more. They had been custom designed for the building. Big building: about 8000 employees at its peak. Now abandonned. So some rooms had thermostats that were not connected to anything.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs_Holmdel_Complex



Unfortunately for the maintenance department, my boss got one of those dummy thermostats. She had a master's degree in engineering and quickly figured out what happened. She eventually got a new mixing box and someone else lost theirs.

furnacefigher15

Steam pressure requirement

Owen

I did some calculations

5.5 million btu input times .85 = 4.675 million output = 4870 lbs/hr steam

.80 = 4.4 million output = 4583 lbs/hr steam



steam piping in heating systems is sized for 4000 to 6000 ft/min velocity



at 2.5 psi steam, the 8 inch main can move 5000 lbs/hr at 6000 ft/min



So in your case you may need a hair over 2 psi, call it 3 psi to be safe



Assumptions:



All steam used goes to the 8 inch main referenced in your 1st post.



So once you get all the other junk fixed, you can set the boiler to maintain 3 psi



The burner on the boiler is 85% efficient (power burner)

Owen

Isn't Knowledge Great?

Thanks! I need to learn how to do that. I assume it's like a lot of things in life, knowing how to do something and then the old calculator and a pencil. Kinda like bidding jobs. Not hard, just tedious. It was very generous of you to do so. So, how'd ya do it? (Explaining is even more tedious, I know.)

Owen

Wow

I KNEW IT! Three at the most!

BTW the stuff off the old mains, main/original rads, air handlers, etc. work great lower pressure. 2nd floor. No problem.

It's all the addition crap that doesn't. Those GD neglected HX. Especially the oldest ones, which must be full of crap. Look at those photos above of a boiler from around here. No wonder they don't work right.

I know some of you guys don't cotton much to chem treatment but I've been convinced that it is imperative here. The 1984 closed loop got chem treatment starting two years ago. That's 25 years that 1984 water had circulated in that loop. Yuck.



And, of course, scaling up. Again, untreated water! My buddy Aaron from Rocky Mnt. Boiler was telling me recently about the HX they replaced in '07 at the 1973 era Middle School that was pretty much full of hard water scale but also plastic shopping bags from the cooling tower. (None of those at the HS have one.)

furnacefigher15

How to

btu/hr to lbs/hr =



btu/hr output of the boiler divided by 960



960 btu = amount of heat required to change 1 pound of 212 degree water to 212 degree steam



btu output = btu input times its efficiency rate as a decimal



Example 85% efficient = .85 as a decimal 80% = .80 as a decimal



Then



I took that info and graphed it on a steam velocity pipe sizing chart published by Spirax Sarco



I tried to attach the chart but, my computer won't let me, just never finishes loading, not sure why.

Owen

Spirex Sarco

I have catalogues and books from them gathering dust somewhere, I'll have to dig those up. I'd also like to do a load calculation to see if the boiler is sized right. I'm dubious. I was talking to the steamfitter today about the guy who was suposed to do it when the new boiler that they (that contractor) put in was spec.ed. The engineer.

Anyway, I need load charts for pipe sizes per foot, that kind of thing. I can take off the drawings to get feet of run of various sizes for the pick-up load, find EDR for the various units etc. Doesn't that sound like fun?

Maybe it would be if it's on the job instead of on my own time, like now, that I spend trying to figure this s... out.

furnacefigher15

sizing the boiler

That will be a trick.

Fresh air can be very hard to calculate into the load. All cfm and temp rise.



In existing buildings that I'm not getting paid to do an in depth heat loss/gain analysis I just look at the piping and pumps on the water system, and radiator edr on the steam side. And get the boiler close / double check engineers calculations.



Water piping can only move so many gallons and therefore so many btu in worst case.

Owen

Phew

Thanks for saving me one hell of a lot of frustration. But mostly guilt: for never actually beginning, let alone ever finishing, those pesky calculations. Man it's hard.

Dave in QCA

Sounds like a good challenge

Owen, it sounds like you have an interesting job.  I spent a few years in a similar position at a school district in Iowa, then worked for many years in a hospital complex.



You are to be commended for your dedication and interest in making improvements, saving money, and protecting the public's investment.



It's a good thing to remember that 2 psi is the limit for residential work.  People often try to correct problems they don't understand by cranking up the pressure.  Many residential systems work quite well at pressures even lower than 2 psi, it all depends on how they were designed.  The same is true for commercial / institutional systems, it all depends on how the engineering design was put together.  Remember, you have a huge number of modulating control valves and some steam to water converters.  You also may even have some condensate lines that do not drop by gravity, but require steam pressure in the coil to lift the condensate.  If your system was designed to operate at 5 psi, I wouldn't try to operate it at 2.  It may work most of the time, but the point when it won't work is when you will need it the most.  You should be able to find blue prints with equipment details and schedules, these should give you an indication of the steam pressure at which the systems were sized and thus the pressure that should be maintained at the boiler.  Also, original temp control prints should give the sequence of operation, and they will explain many mysteries to you.



Your chemical programs sounds good.  I'd talk to your chem rep about the priming and foaming and have him help you get that under control.  It probably caused by the steamline treatment of phosphate being too high.  Keep that conductivity under control!  That is the biggest item.  When it gets too high you start to form rocks inside your boiler, like the pics that you posted.  Good chemical treatment will allow you to run higher conductivity without problems, will bind up the lime, reduce the rust corrosion, and keep the pH in the steam from being acidic and eating up your copper steam coils and condensate return lines.



Keep us posted with your progress and findings.



I Agree completely with Mark Eatherton that the biggest waste of energy in schools is from ventilation that runs 24-7.  If you can come up with a way to turn off your exhausters when the building is not occupied, you will safe a bunch.  It sounds like your fan coils, which I assume are actually classroom univents, go off when in the unoccupied mode, so that shuts of the fresh air being pumped in.  I imagine that you have some "nite stats" in the building too.  To people who have never thought outside the needs of residential heat, all of that ventilation in public buildings sounds like a bunch of hooey, but it really is not.  Try putting 30 kids in a room that is not all that big, no fresh air, closed door, closed windows.  Not only are they breathing and using up the oxygen, but they don't smell so great either!  Ventilation is required by engineering codes for a good reason and it isnt' anything new.  Don't try to overide or eliminate ventilation, but see if you can shut it off when the building is empty.  That would be a good application of the computerized control system...



Again, keep us posted.  And, don't get too irritated with your bosses, in part, they are just trying to keep you, and themselves, out of trouble.

KelleSnyder

Sounds like you need help!

Owen,  which I understand is

not the name you use at work, I am the Marketing Manager with Clima-Tech

Corporation and the provider of your Automated Logic Controls.  I must

apologize for my delayed response, I just ran across this forum.   I have

read the posting thread with great interest and asked others within my company

for input.  I have also been told that your immediate supervisor has

personally apologized to the President of our company for your post. 



I understand that you are a frequent caller to our tech support 24/7, 800

number and have been in our training classes.  I'm sure that you are aware that your school

district has a Support Service Agreement which allows anyone in the District

to attend as many of our quarterly, three day training classes as they wish.  Even

better for you, is that one of these classes has been held in a Blackfoot

School District facility, and likely will be in the near future.   

Regarding your struggles with boilers, I can

relate.  My husband was an HVAC service technician for 25 years and I know

that it takes years to become proficient and to learn  how to make

them perform efficiently.  No one can learn the operations of a boiler

system and be 100% literate in the topic in the short

amount of time that you've had, particularly

when you have responsibilities that are far more time consuming.



As for the lack of user friendliness for those that are not trained computer

programmers, I am sorry that you are having difficulty with your Automated

Logic system.  The system is recognized internationally for its ease of

use and intuitive nature.  We have a number of customers who have their

newer employees attend training throughout the year, building on the experience

they gain through day-to-day use, allowing them to become experts with their

system. 



I would recommend that you take further advantage of our training and bring

those challenging calculations with you.  We can help you to do the math

and understand what it means to you and your boilers.  We can help you to

find appropriate methods to achieve the "green" initiatives that you

are working so hard to implement.  Our

mechanical service technician in eastern Idaho also has a great deal of

education on boiler systems and many years of experience with them.  If

you need assistance I suggest that you contact us and have him give you a

hand. 



Further, I have personally known your Supervisor for around 15 years.  He

is a man of character and incredibly knowledgeable having been involved with

the facilities in your school district for a number of years.  I recommend

you seek his advice and listen to his instruction.



Please feel free to contact me to schedule some time with our mechanical

service technician and to schedule additional training, which we hold

in both Blackfoot and Boise, at your earliest convenience.  Please bring

your questions, we have technicians who have been in the industry for

more than

30 years and are among the most knowledgeable in Idaho, they would be

more than

happy to assist.



My best regards,

Kelle

nicholas bonham-carter

Kudos Kelle and Owen

Your good communication skills are a breath of fresh air in the industry.

Just remember that your controls are like the driver in a car. If the car is badly maintained with dragging brakes, bent steering, and plugged up air filter in the engine compartment, then the driver can never keep the car on course.

The problems with this system result from poor maintenance on the steam side, however, until those problems are fixed, your controls will get the blame.

Even though the supervisor has apologized to the company, he is still responsible for the bad situation which now exists in the system. Has he been to the training classes? What can one learn of value in your company's classes to solve the present system problems?

It is disheartening to read this whole post and see how long this system has been abused by chemicals, and simple lack of maintenance. In the meantime your poor controls company gets the blame for lack of performance!

However, once again thanks for your input, and in the meantime see if you can straighten this out by suggesting the supervisor and the present poster take a real STEAM course. I would also welcome the input here in the controls section of you and your colleagues, so as to demystify any parts of your control systems which installers and users have encountered.--NBC

RogerWSpillman

Roger W Spillman

I want to thank Kelly for her post. Nicholas, I just wanted to let you know my name is Roger W. Spillman (Maintenance Supervisor), I apologized to Clima-Tech because I felt bad about what Owen (Kevin Jamison) said about Clima-Tecn and that it wasn't true. I am the supervisor of Owen (Kevin Jamison). I did not agree with what Kevin said about Clima-Tech. I have a good relation with  Clima-Tech and can not control what Kevin Jamison says about them. He was wrong in what he said about Clima-Tech. They are one of the best companies to work with. there controls.(AutomatedLogic) is also the best and easiest to use. I have always thought this for the 16+ years we have been with them. Kevin Jamison has been with the district for about 4 years. before that he laid tile for I don't know how long, 25 to 30 years. His education of boilers is  3 years or so, he read a book, gone on the Internet. He has never had any type of schooling on boilers. Thank You, Roger W. Spillman

Paul48

Everyone

is entitled to their opinion. Your dedicated employee spoke the truth as he saw it, and even added that it was his opinion.There was no reason for you to apologize for that.

              I once heard of a lawyer, that had no formal education and was self-taught....his name was Abraham Lincoln. I would say that after 3 years, Kevin is well on his way to a Bachelors degree. There are many trained and educated individuals here, and they agree with Kevin and not you regarding boiler pressures.While Kevin is doing a fine job getting up to speed on your systems, you should take some management courses.What you did here, is repulsive and bullyish. Shame on you! I hope it comes back and bites you in the arse!

Owen

Thanks for Your Support

Paul48, you can't know how much it means to me for all the advice and encouragement I get here. Your kind words mean a lot and help keep me focused on what needs to be done. Thanks again.

Zman

Politician

Roger,

 You will certainly go far in politics. That is important for government work. What experience do you possess that enables you to evaluate climate-tech and their performance? What makes so sure they  know what they are doing? I am sure they kiss butt nicely,do they really know what they are doing? You apologized to them? Who is working for who?

Is there a mayoral election coming up?

Carl



I am happy to hear Kevin still has a job. He has incredible passion.

Mark Eatherton

Can't say as I have ever seen a public flogging here on The Wall...

Roger, allow me to be the first to say that I am extremely glad I don't work for you. Owen came here seeking advice. It was freely given by some of the best steam people in the world.



Instead of publicly chastising him for wanting to save money, and headaches, you should be rewarding him for the potential energy savings YOU will see, if he's allowed to "Turn It Down".



In my minds eye, YOU are the problem. The same problem we see from the bottom of government, all the way to the top... I don't know it for sure, but I would bet that the controls contractor keeps his nose firmly planted in your rectum, and their collective noses are brown. You have them exactly where you want them, and they have you exactly where they want you. Complacency is a BAD thing.



This is exactly why the "system" is broken. We, the tax payers, are paying for these inequities, and I personally am getting real tired of seeing my money, and my grand children's and great grand children's money WASTED.



Turn down the rhetoric, turn down the steam pressures, and take some classes on physical plant and employer/employee relationships...



To the controls contractor, learn how to keep people comfortable and minimize waste and you will have school districts coming to you. Quit satisfying the administrators wishes of not hearing complaints from the end users and start paying more attention to the efficient and safe operation of their physical plant. If someone is complaining, there is a problem, and it might not be your problem, but you know how to cover it up, at the tax payers expenses. It is NOT human nature to just sit around and complain. If they are not comfortable, then rest assured, something is broken. FWIW, my definition of "Comfort" is not being aware of your surroundings. You are not hot, you are not cold, you don't hear a lot of noise in the back ground, you are not feeling drafts. Simply stated, you are comfortable. Quit trying to achieve energy savings through deep night/weekend timed set backs and start a campaign to plug the holes and leaks in the system. The end result is significant energy savings, and significant reductions in end user complaints.



The soap box is now free...



ME

Steamhead

I think Dan

should consider deleting Roger's post.

Owen

Shakespeare Had A Saying...

"hoist of his own petard". I think it's very apt here. Let it ride.

Besides, he's entitled to his opinion too. He's full of it, but that's his perogitive.

ChrisJ

Wow

Really not impressed with Roger and I think this is the first time I've seen anything like this on the wall. 



I think what bothers me the most is the fact "owen" used a nickname and not his real name because he didn't want it on a internet forum.  Roger went ahead and posted it for all to see which is downright WRONG.

ChrisJ

double

double post. 

Owen

Thanks to All

It has been tremendously gratifying to have so many of these men whom I respect and admire so much show this support. It has been very difficult the past couple of years knowing the truth, having learned it here and from Dan's books and not being allowed to use it to save taxpayer money. Very frustrating to say the least. Thanks again.

Kevin Owen Jamison

Mark Eatherton

I disagree Frank

I think it should stay up for all the world to see, possibly including the board of education from that district. When you shine a light on rats, they scatter... To have an administrator doing a public apology to one of their vendors because someone questioned their ability to perform smells extremely wrong to me. JMHO.



If I were Owen, I'd drop a line to the board of education for his district to let them get some insight on the internal workings of their supervisors/administrators by reading this post. Hopefully, they are not a part of the G.O.B.S. (Good Ol' Boy Syndrome) When THEY turn their focus and attention on the problem, you can bet people are going to scramble. And I can guarantee you that they would LOVE to see fuel consumptions drop by 15 to 30%...



I really don't see this as a bad reflection on this internet community. Hence, no need to take it down. JMHO.



ME

nicholas bonham-carter

The cost of a leak

The greatest priority should be to find that leak and fix it. The amount of chemicals needed for the system could probably be reduced if there were not large quantities of fresh water being fed into the system. The life of the boiler is being shortened by allowing this to continue, and the money saved on excess chemicals would be considerabale. Maybe you should try using no chemicals, at least during the first weeks of winter,(after checking the Ph.

the next priority would be lowering the pressure, and the beginning of the heating system is an excellent time to try with the bare minimum, and then increase only when there is a clear need to do so. Most of the coils, and traps will have a maximum pressure on a plate somewhere, and this information will guide you in adjusting the pressure. Excessive pressure (also the work of the devil), will interfere with the operation of the traps, preventing the proper operation of the system. Presumably, the controls will need to be readjusted back to their defaults when the system has been returned to a normal condition. The fact that those controls have been able to keep the heat flowing even though impeded by the other factors working against them speaks well of their flexibility, and design.

A good cleanout of the boiler bottom may also be necessary before the snow flies.--NBC

icesailor

Understanding:

Nick,

I can see that you just do not understand the true problem. They're smart. We're not. Don't ever forget that.

Remember this. All those folks have only been wrong once in their lives. That was the time they thought they were wrong. Then came to find out that they were right. Those folks will do ANYTHING to protect their record of being always correct.

For you and I, we start off being wrong because someone else who was right, didn't solve the problem and either gave up or someone gave up on them. We're asshats for first going there, then worse for fixing it. The "Perfect Ones" get really PO'ed and will claim that that isn't the problem and do whatever they can to prove you wrong. Even to the point of undoing what you did to correct your effective solution so they can then show that what you did that worked to correct the problem and show that you were right, didn't solve the problem.

It's really hard to follow behind "Experts". (X being an unknown quantity and Spert is a drip under pressure.). We're powerless over fools.

Especially the one that bad mouthed Owen. Who was more correct in his observations than the control company who wouldn't know a 3' pipe wrench from a 10" pair of arch joint pliers.

nicholas bonham-carter

Offering advice

All we can ever do here is to listen to the problem, and then offer our advice.on strategies for correction. Many times we have encountered those whose words will "trip our triggers".

Either the school administration will be interested in getting a solution to the problems here or not. If they do, it will be because someone was concerned with HVAC comfort and economy. If they go about the investigation right, they will not focus on the personalities involved, and who did/said what to whom. They will hire an independant expert (steamhead would be excellent!) to access the system, and suggest any repairs, changes etc, to make the school more comfortable at less fuel cost.

I think after the system, has been returned to its original state of repair and adjustment, then some may wish to find out how things got to the present state of apparent disrepair, or not. At least they will have a guide to proper operation which should be followed as far as maintence.

In these situations there are so many community dynamics involved of which we are unaware. Ther may be some knucklehead ding in the system as it has evolved and expanded over the years.

With the complication of fan-coil units, perhaps mixed with some original radiators, all running on steam, it is possible that designs by regular engineers, with little practical experience, relying on manufacturer-supplied software for component selection, there is a great chance of problems, and frustrations for the support staff.

The budget department is probably putting pressure on maintaence to make do-no costly modifications--don't worry about the low oil-pressure light, just keep driving!--NBC

Owen

Don't Just Ignore The Low Oil Light...

PUNCH IT! We've got to out-run these problems! Hurry and get there before we run out of gas!

Jean-David Beyer

Hurry and get there before we run out of gas!

Right. Where I used to work, I would say, "We haven't time to stop for gas: we are late already!" It did not make me any friends.

Steamhead

Mark, I used to work for a government entity long ago

and based on that experience (unless I'm very wrong in this case), the higher-ups will just blindly support the best tuchas-kisser, logic and performance be damned. Below a certain point on the food chain, it doesn't matter if you're right- you're automatically wrong. That's one of the many reasons I left.



By this twisted illogic, Roger's higher-ups will probably applaud him for  "keeping that so-and-so in line".



So I see where this is going. The higher-ups don't know and more importantly, don't care. Owen, as I will continue to call him, is probably too low on the food chain to ever have a chance at being right. But I see a future for him where steam is more prevalent and there are people who would appreciate him. Look east, young man........

Owen

I'm Already West And An Old Man...

and gonna stay. I love the Central Idaho mountains and will be planted here. But i've thought about it. This is a Lost Art indeed. I think Dan recently linked in one of his emails to a study that showed steam is down to 8% of the operating systems for heating. That's sad and too bad. There are many applications where it is eminently suitable, very efficient and appropriate. Just not well understood, let alone mastered.

nicholas bonham-carter

Happy ending in time for Christmas?

Even though temperatures are still hot generally, winter will surely come, and will the students and faculty at this school be warm after walking through deep snow to and from school (uphill both ways!)? I hope those really in charge of the school start to rectify the system problems while they have time.

One thing I have learned from dealing with tenant's complaints about heating is thet temperature perception is very subjective. I would put a large easy to read thermometer above the blackboard in every classroom, so " cold" can be more accurately described.. Thus when someone would call to complain about being cold, they could report the exact temperature. Sometimes the temperature was not all that cold, and they would not call, and just put on a sweater.--NBC