School Steam Systems

Owen

I'm having a lot of severe push-back to incorporating the two pound mantra at a small school district (a town of about 10,000).

Because of losing three boilers at the district in the last three years (the extent of my short term here; BTW, I come from construction as a self-employed ceramic tile contrator), I instigated an agressive chemical treatment regime, acting on the advice of our boiler installation and repair contractor, with direct and frequent counsel of a water treatment specialist. I installed chem. injection pumps and quills into the main receiver tanks at all seven boilers in my care, along with water meters and water softeners. I sample & test the boiler water semi-weekly and adjust the chem. levels accordingly.

I'm having a host of headaches and sleepless nights over problems at the High School. It is 250,000+ sq.ft. including a 1,500 seat auditorium used by the community. That addition, as well as four others, have hot water/steam heat exchangers, three in all, circa '65, '83 & '05. There is in place Automated Logic controls system for online control and monitoring.

This school's boilers are in a stand-alone building which contains one 2008 Weil McLain #94 5,500,000 BTU cast iron sectional boiler and one 1955 Pacific steel boiler which has, sadly, given up the ghost. The WM has surged, primed & had carry-over since early after installation and it has gotten worse since I installed a larger main receiver tank two years ago (275 Gal.). I did not know enough to clean all the pipe after cutting & threading to keep oils out of the water. (I now, of course clean every stick with grease cleaner before installing into the steam/condensate stream.) In addition to the main receiver there are four others at various places in the main original wing. The steam and condensate pipes are of good size having been installed in the mid-fifties when there were still deadmen doing good work. There is about 2300' of main line starting at 8" in the boiler room, reducing down to 3" mostly, with some 2" at one later addition that uses steam. All the other addition wings are hot water/steam shell & tube-bundle heat exchangers.

Boiler treatment chemical levels are right now below recommended parameters and have been so far this year. The system has a severe leak (hundreds of gallons daily) somewhere, apparently underground or under concrete in the main building somewhere and hasn't become apparent yet.

The weather right now is cold, averaging -1º low 25º highs. Unless the boiler is turned up to 7-8# and off at 4-5# it doesn't heat with the steam very well at some areas and the heat exchangers seem starved for heat and can't keep up with some areas requesting heat (the automated system). When run at lower pressures, which I have been doing for a couple months until recently, it just doesn't get the job done. It also surges and primes up into the risers (8") and header (10"-36 inches from boiler waterline) when run at lower pressure especially on Mondays when areas start to wake for occupied status. When that happens, it starves the boiler for water and it shuts off on LWCO. Then it overfills with water, or a random knucklehead does it, and that ends up flooding the receiver, wasting chemical.

Monday mornings are particularly nettlesome with this awful combination of problems. Thus complaints, the bane of a lazy maintenance man's world.

All my boilers have timers or AL and are not allowed to cool below 180º more or less when in stand-by mode.



Please comment. I'm eager to hear from folks, especially the frequent regular contributing pros. NBC, ME, Jamie, Steamhead, Tim and of course, Dan.

I love this forum, but I haven't seen too many posts regarding systems like this. Not too many school dist. maintenance guys give enough of a crap to actually try to learn how do do this stuff as well and as CONSERVE-ativly as it can be done I guess.

Steamhead

Too much chemical

can cause surging and priming. Try using just plain water and see what happens. Cast-iron boilers like the W-M 94 generally don't need so much chemical treatment, unlike steel boilers.



If the air can't get out of the system, the steam can't get in. Possible causes are bad traps or vents. In larger systems, the air vents thru the F&T traps and out the vents on the receiver tanks. If there are water seals in the piping, intentional or not, they will keep the air from escaping and require a lot more pressure to overcome.



Where are you located?

Owen

SE Idaho

Yeah, that's good. More venting. I know that, but the boss man don't buy it. We're broke they claim, but they spend plenty on every frivolous thing you can imagine except these proven ideas. I will work on that though: vent at bottlenecks.

Regards chemicals, it's going to be a s... fest if that is what's causing it. You aren't the only one suggesting that. Oh, oh.

Henry

Chemicals

Your number one culprit is chemicals! Water softeners are a good idea but you still need to check your water composition. Number two culprit is any leaks as fresh water can cause all sorts of problems besides extra costs! You must have some traps that are broken closed , F&T are notorious for that. IB traps break open. Also your main condensate tank is too small for the boiler. You need at least 440 gallons but you need to check the time it takes for the condensate to return from the furthest point.

http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/commercial-boilers/94/550-110-275_0810_94Manual.pdf

Last week we had an old building that would not heat at the other end. We found several things:

Condensate tank to small due to the length of the main. The boiler would cut off on low level

Trap at the end of main was stuck closed

Boiler would not go to high fire due to incompatible burner head

So we changed the head and got high fire. replaced the tank to one of the proper size recommended by the boiler manufacturer and replaced the steam trap. Everything is nice and toasty at 2 psi or less!

Steamhead

Pocatello area?

I've been thru there, my brother used to live on the other side of Yellowstone. Beautiful part of the country. I've been known to do out-of-town consulting- let me know if you need some more eyes on this thing.

Jamie Hall

I cannot imagine

a more thankless job than trying to keep the mechanicals in a school running properly these days.  I don't envy you in the least...



Chemicals.  As both Henry and Steamhead have said, chemicals may be a good chunk of your problem.  You are going two ways on the chemicals: on the one hand, you want to keep the potential oxidation levels low in the boiler itself.  On the other, you want to use the least possible chemical that you can; almost anything beyond moderately hard water can cause foaming and priming (this was a very serious problem back in the day with steam locomotive engines in the west!).  In your situation, where you have that severe leak, you are kind of in a bind: the makeup water you add is likely to be somewhat corrosive (although it would be worth checking it, if you haven't -- some water supplies are not that agressive), but the chemicals which you might add to address that never leave the boiler, but gradually build up over time.



Therefore, first, keep the chemicals as low as you can, and test.  Second, if you are not doing it, you will have to blow the boiler down regularly, to control the chemical levels in the boiler.  Not just a little bit now and then, but a goodly amount -- tens if not hundreds of gallons in a very big boiler.  What you are going for is to reduce the residual chemical -- remember, the chemicals do not go away with the steam!  They just sit there, and you need to get rid of them.



Also remember that the chemical levels -- as Steamhead said -- for cast iron boilers are very different than for steel; be sure that you are looking at the correct values.



Do check your feedwater quality.  As I said, sometimes it is good.  Sometimes, however, it is horrible (particularly alkaline) and that alone can cause both priming and surging; I don't know what you have there.



I would be seriously inclined to try it with little, if any, chemical -- you can do that gradually, without incurring the wrath (maybe) by regular blowdowns.



You mention that you are in southeastern Idaho -- Pocatello area?  Odd as it may sound, if the Union Pacific railroad runs through your parts, you might just get in touch with their steam heritage program, in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and find out what they use for water for the 844 and 3965 when they come through.  Both of those require really high quality water, and a lot of it.  Just a thought...



Otherwise, listen to Steamhead!  And do what you can as you can.  Knowing how school districts are, you are going to have to evaluate and then prioritise -- and improvise! -- like mad.

Owen

School Steam Systems

Blackfoot, which is 24 miles north of Pocatello. We are about a hundred miles, give or take from Yellowstone north, Jackson Hole NE, Craters of the Moon NW, Sun Valley/Ketchum NW & Salt Lake City south.

Someone who could lend me some credibility on these issues would be great, but you'd have to be very persuasive to convince these people.

Owen

Thanks, Jamie

Thankless and stressful, at least when one attempts to make changes to the old routine.

All the boilers have water softeners. I test that weekly and chemical levels twice weekly.

This boiler hasn't reached parameters at all this season. The chemicals here are Chemsearch 133 (Sulfite), CS 444+ (phosphate) and CS BWT (boiler water treatment for the steam & condensate lines to control corrosion). The other six `use CS 585 (nitrite) and BWT. They are all fine, chem. wise. Blow-down is at least weekly; more often if testing shows high conductivity which is frequently at a couple of them (not at the HS). (These things are like people: they're all different.)

With regard to cast/steel, Chemsearch is a big multinational corp. with a staff of chemists who my rep. confers with often. I have to assume they know what they're talking about.

The rep. checks the raw water monthly for iron, pH etc. and makes adjustments accordingly.

UPRR bisects this town which was founded at a jumping off point from the railroad to the central Idaho mining camps in the 1880's. Later a rail line was built, the Oregon Short Line

to make hauling the ore cheaper.

I've seen the locomotives you mention running north & parked in town when they stop to give rides. They run a couple of miles & then come back. I've never done it but would love to.

Owen

Contractor or Maintenance?

Is your example a school building?

At the HS there was barely enough room for the 275 gal. tank. I don't think that's the problem. There are 4 other tanks albeit small ones. I've replaced about 90% of the steam traps. There are a few F&T's remaining, but not many. Burner was calibrated & tuned by our boiler contractor last week.

Oh, but if it was only that easy. My super overrode me and tuned all but three boilers up to ridiculous levels last Fri. 5# on 8# off, & directed me to turn up the rest (3, which ARE running fine at 2#!) tomorrow (I have today off). He did so because he's tired of the complaints and rather than fix everything this is easy. They claim there is no money for fixes but since when is natural gas free?

What about their argument regarding the three heat exchangers? High pressure is required to satisfy all the many different loads simultaneously. This is a big system.

I must say however two of the HX's are in the boiler room less than 50 feet away from it.

One is about 700 feet away, in the building, and doesn't heat that addition very well; lots of complaints.

Owen

Chemical Problems? Here's a Problem.

This is a boiler in SE idaho with NO chemical treatment. I think it was about 15 years old.

Note: it was less than ten years old.

furnacefigher15

thermal image and find the leak

call in a thermal imaging contractor to locate the leak.



If the piping was laid in the fifties you are in for a major re-pipe job on the condensate return side



It is likely if you find the leak, there will be an issue of where to stop making repairs.



It may be easier to abandon the leaking line a route a new one altogether.



Some heat exchangers do require more pressure than 2 #'s to overcome pressure drop of the exchanger and trap.



To see if you can run low, check the water side temp rise of the exchange at low pressure and listen for trap functionality.

Owen

Wow

"To see if you can run low, check the water side temp rise of the exchange at low pressure and listen for trap functionality."



Please elaborate.

Water side temp rise? Difference between- what and what?

Listen to trap for open/close?

Two are inverted bucket and one is F&T.

furnacefigher15

temp rise

On the heat exchanger there is a steam side and a water side (unless I misread your post)



Steam from the boiler feeds a heat exchanger in the addition or additions, and they send hot water from that heat exchanger(s) to the final heat emitters.



The waterside of the heat exchanger should have a 10 to 20 degree temperature rise on the water side during operation.



Take temperature rise of waterside with the 5 to 8 psi steam and use that as a reference.



Then check again with a lower steam pressure, and see if there is a difference. If the temp rise is less, then you'll need to keep the higher steam pressure.



When I say listen for the trap function, normally you can hear the trap opening and closing, and that will tell you weather the trap is working. Not all steam traps work that way though. Just make sure the steam supply line stays hot, and that will indicate consistent flow.

Owen

Eureka!?

1984 Hot Water System has a 147.5º supply temp set point and is currently at 146.8º with return water temp at 143.3º. Steam is 6#. Steam valve is 27% open.

1964 Hot Water System has a 131.3º supply temp set point and is currently at 131.1º with

return water temp at 128.0º. Steam at this moment is 8.3#. Steam 1/3 valve is valve is 18% open, 2/3 valve is closed..

2005 Hot Water System has a ????? supply temp set point and is currently at 158.8º with

return water temp at 151.0º. Steam at this moment is 8.3#. Steam 1/3 valve is 35% open, 2/3 valve is closed.

Steamhead

Then

crank it down further!

Owen

Not Allowed

Because of areas not heating when I tried lowering the pressure and the complaints generated by that, I have been disallowed to change the pressuretrols. The problems described previously with HX persists and somebody keeps turning it up higher and higher. Last time I checked, we were up to 9+#.

I won't be able to try anything till next week. I wonder if it will it be 14.5# by then?

furnacefigher15

you have a air problem

While every system has a different pressure requirement, boosting pressure is not a cure all. The areas that complain need investigation as to why. Likely steam is unable to travel fast enough to those areas. Most likely is steam vents and traps, but could also be a sagging pipe causing a steam passage to get blocked.



I can see you work with classic building engineers. If I were you I would investigate the trouble areas any way.



It seems obvious there is a problem, that pressure can't fix.

Steamhead

With the valves only open that far

you're essentially throttling the pressure in the coils. I bet the actual pressure in the coils is low enough that you would only need a couple pounds in the system to fully heat them with the valves open wide.



As others have said, look at the areas that aren't heating and find out why they need so much pressure. Very possibly you will find that the knuckleheads have been there.

Owen

Releasing the Air From It's Bondage

Practically speaking, how exactly does one go about that? While steaming, under pressure? I guess how else, right? Just crack a union while steamed up, whooooosh, then tighten back up? That sounds way too easy. All these problems can be solved like that. Really.

MUST BE TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE!

But believe me I'm hot to try it. I sure as hell ain't telling anybody before hand in case it doesn't work!

Long Beach Ed

Testing traps

Open a union and finding 9# of steam can wake up the dead.  Be careful not to break anything while the steam's up or they'll be talking about you for years. 



You can often check traps by measuring the temperature on the steam and water side.  We've used those laser thermometers as well as temp sensing crayons.  The water side should be cooler.  Remember that bad traps put steam where it shouldn't be, so a few bad traps may cause a whole lot of steam to be all over the place.

furnacefigher15

It does not have to be dangerous

Go around in the complaining areas and see what radiators work and what does not. I can usually find trouble areas by simple touch tests.



I am not sure what kind of controls you are using to maintain temperature in the final areas, but 1950's era thinking would have generally been radiators, and an all or nothing style approach. So if the boilers up to pressure, everything should be hot, and what is not is where I would start.



The best tool in our arsenal is logic. First figure out what it should be doing, and then see what is not happening, and go from there.

Owen

Heat Exchangers- Not Traps

My question above concerns releasing air from HX, not testing steam traps. I know how to do that. (Around here they are all so old I just replace them. BTW, I install new traps as per Hoffman specs, i.e. with trap test valves, so that in future, myself and the young guys and/or gals who will replace me won't have such a hard time of it.)

I like the comment about the noise when releasing air. One HX is in the back of a classroom and I don't need panicked people or alarms set off.

Owen

Wisdom

I must disagree about noggin' power. The best tool is this website. Wisdom born of experience is the most powerful tool. I've tried to think my way through this thicket and have failed utterly. Deadmen or those who remember them (tip 'o the hat ol' Danny boy) is the only way through this maze.



The controls at the HS are AutomatedLogic computer/on line high tech except IMHO it sucks as far as ease of use. Too dense, too complicated, not designed for a simple maintenance person who doesn't have a degree in computer science. Way too too.



As far as heating units there is everything under the sun. Radiators in the original building which consist of 30' long 2" pipes with fins that double back on themselves to the trap, lots of those (they work the best), fin tube radiators some with steam some with hot water, fan/coil units some with steam some with hot water, univents with hot water and big air handlers, some with steam some with hot water. Plus electric forced air, some permanent & lots of portables because of the problems heating some areas while the windows are open in other areas. FUBB.

furnacefigher15

Air in heat exchangers

The any air on the steam side is not a problem as long as the traps work.

On the steam side, there is air in the pipe anytime steam is not, its just part of the process. Steam is a system that breaths so to speak.

Air on the waterside is trouble, and the only way to get it out (of the heat ex changers) is to open manual air vents and allow the water to push it out.

Owen

Manual Air Vents

Of course you're right. I'm having a hard time learning steam, let alone now hot water.

I knew that about steam, the breathing thing. I also knew that air in hot water is bad because I installed pot feeders at seven hot water system closed loops. The whole point of pot feeders is to add chemical treatment into the loop without adding air. Duh. Sorry.





Where would manual air vents be?

Dan has commented to me to "crack a union". Where exactly would one want to do that on the water side? The highest point? Anywhere (my favorite)?

Does my reply to you at my post "Eureka" (above) make any sense? Those seem like very small differences in temp between supply and return, certainly not the 10-20º you indicated is required.

Thanks very much for your input.

furnacefigher15

air bleeding

Only bleed air if you think you need to. In commercial set ups there is usually an in-line air separator near the central pumping stations. Most large systems still use compression style tanks due to system capacity, and the air separator more or less takes any air it can scrub out of solution, and sends it back to the compression tank.



Most times the terminal units are where air is most likely to get bound up. Radiators, fan coils, anywhere the flow slows down or makes many changes of direction are possible trouble spots. There should be little coin type bleed valves, or maybe even a hose bib to bleed air from. On the heat ex-changer itself there should be some type of relief valve, and these can be used to bleed air from.



I generally prefer to bleed air with the pumps off, cause the air will naturally rise and there is less turbulence.



As far as the temperatures on the heat ex-changer, I see that as a low load. The computer system is obviously running some kind of reset, if the set point is only 145 and 131.



10 to 20 (usually closer to 20) degrees delta with a supply temp of 170 or 180 would have been the design at full load. So, when everything wants heat and has somewhere to send it, the water temp will drop 10 to 20 degrees from supply back to return. Lower water temperature settings usually foul things up as far as normal temp rise/drop goes. The cooler the water is the hard it is for it to give off heat, b/c its closer to the space temperatures.



Example;

A radiator at 180 degrees in a room that is 70 degrees can give off 170 btu per hour per square foot.

That same radiator at 150 degrees in a room that is 70 degrees can give off only 110 btu per hour per square foot.

And the lower the water temp the less heat emission.



What kind of heat emitters are in use on those hot water systems? 130 is too low of reset for anything but in-floor heat. You posted before about baseboard, fan coils, and air handlers.



The only circuit that runs reset should be perimeter baseboard / radiators. Anything running to an air handler should be hotter. The air handlers should have there own zone valves, usually three way if they have there own pumps, and 2 way if they don't.



Okay I should slow down.



Do the main water pumps in the hot water systems run on frequency drives? If so this changes a lot.



I can help more, the more I know about what in specific you are up against.



What areas have trouble? What type of heat do those areas get? What controls the heat? Be specific, not just automated logic.



Something more like the area that has trouble is (x) its heat comes from (steam or hot water) the heat source emits from ( air handler, radiators, baseboard, a combination of those be specific) The heat source is controlled by a ( be specific)



Are you a member of your local RSES (Refrigeration Service Engineers Society) chapter? In my area, Chicago, there are quite a few building engineers that go.



I'm happy to answer any questions you have, but you are dealing with a system that is fairly complicated, and a local support group could serve you well.

Owen

Answers and Questions

Two things first off. I can't thank you and the other posters enough. I'm obviously completely in the dark. And two, I'm obviously completely in the dark. I'm just barely beggining to be competent with steam and now I have to try to figure out the hot water systems. Dan has some really good reference books, but they are a couple hundred bucks.

OK.

Yes there are expansion tanks. They are about half full of water usually, as per the gauge glass. There are no air separators that I know of.

By terminal unit I assume you mean the heating unit. F/C, rads, etc. There are a million of 'em. It would be difficult to release air at all of those, but not impossible. Coin type valves, those small things you can turn with a nickel? OK.

There are hose bibs on the expansion tanks, but that would release water, not air. I'll look on the HX themselves for something.

Pumps off, got it.

Temps on HX, low load? Computer system reset? Dunno. On two of the three, my post "Eureka!" gave you the set-point that I could find.

The air handlers have Belemo modulating valves on the steam units. I can't remember what is on the hot water ones, but the same no doubt since it was all done the same year.

What you say about the Delta T makes perfect sense to me. I couldn't understand how such a small differential could do much good, but that's the way our "experts" have set it. Who am I to question the mighty ClimaTech geniuses?

"Heat emitters"? The hot water systems have everything, F/C, univents, rads, etc.

"The only circuit that runs reset"? Please clarify.

Air handlers- 3 way, 2 way, I don't know. The steam units, no pumps. The HW units, pumps in the boiler room.

If you mean variable frequency pumps, no they aren't.

What controls the heat, please be more specific. I don't cappish. Sorry.

This is Blackfoot, Idaho. There is no organization like that around that I know of. Maybe SLC. I'm pretty much on my own here, except for you guys, and at some point I will start to wear pretty thin, I'm sure. Assuming I haven't already.

Anyway, certinly do appreciate you all taking the time to help out.

It ain't easy bein' green.

Mark Eatherton

Whats sad about this situation...

is that it is quite indicative of whats going on all over this country. Government agencies crying the busted bank blues, and their physical plants are wasting energy at record levels, and to boot, no one is comfortable in these buildings...



And this is OUR money that they are wasting...



You might need to bypass your supervisor and head straight to the top to get the attention of someone who will allow you to make adjustments to the system. The outlying problems are probably not even related to the boilers operating pressures. This system has obviously gone through the typical "Turn it UP" syndrome, which never really does much other than causing waste, wear and tear.



As for chemical treatment, if you can't find a better local person to handle your treatment needs, try contacting Dwight Hedgpeth at Rhomar Water Treatment. He is a qualified expert, and won't sell you something you really don't need.



Sad, but true.



Colorado just found out that they are going to have to come up with some serious buckage for their schools, and it has nothing to do with energy efficiency. It has to do with people in the rural areas demanding that their students receive the same educational benefits that go with higher population density areas...



http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_19511537



Good luck in your venture, and don't worry about burning these guys out. They're here to help. You will know you've exceeded your quota when they stop responding to your posts/questions, and I can only remember a few time that has happened, and it was more because the poster was not willing to accept the advice being given.



ME

Owen

OUR Money! Exactly!

Mr. Eatherton, thanks for responding. Going over heads might well get me canned, but I agree. The knuckeheads I have to battle are going to burn ME out, for sure.

I take it you think the water treatment regime in use is not correct. Even with the water here? I and the Facilities Director (not my Supervisor) signed on to the Chemsearch program and have spent a lot of money implementing it. It would be a major black eye if it turns out to be wrong or unnecessary. I will attempt to contact Mr. Hedgpeth ASAP.

And the problems are not just at the HS, there are six others. I had three of the smaller buildings down to 1/2# on 2# off, and they worked beautifully, but was told just Friday to turn them all back up to 2# minimum. Chief knucklehead said complaints were coming in.

As soon as I heard that I went to those buildings, went into the rooms and asked the teachers and secretaries if they were cold. If they said yes I turned up the THERMOSTATS!

End of problem! Two pounds works!

One step forward, three steps back.

Owen

Water Treatment

I contacted Rhomer via email and requested a contact. I'll ask for the gentleman you mentioned. However, their website clearly shows it's all the same stuff, more or less.

We'll see what they have to say about the current program.

furnacefigher15

Hot water reset

Owen,

outdoor reset is changing the set point water temperature in response to outdoor temperature.



Example : 0 outside = 180 degree set point 50 outside = 140 set point



And, the set point would continually change as the outdoor temp does (set point would be reset by the ddc system automatically).



Outdoor reset with fan coil units is okay, but the set points need to make sense. Set points in the example would be fine anything below 140 is trouble for non fan powered heat emitters. Are there zone valves in each fan coil, or just fan start / stop and constant flow?



The schools must have fan/coils in each room I gather and the thermostats are in each room to directly control those fan coils. If this is not the case please tell me what you do have in each room.



Who complains about the temperature? What is the normal reaction? And, does boosting pressure stop complaints?

Mark Eatherton

Re: water and chemicals...

It is virtually impossible to say short of having a full analysis of not only the make up water, but also the quantity of make up water being used (possible leaks).



I believe that water conditioning is important, and if ignored, the picture you posted of the limed up boiler are the typical results, including even more energy waste. Not to say that you may be using more chemicals than needed, but in a steam boiler with a lot of make up, water quality and treatment is critical.



The folks at Rhomar should be able to give you some good advice..



ME

Owen

Set Point

Ok, it'll take me a while to digest that. It does make sense. Do those set point in "Eureka" seem right given that it's been very cold lately, 0º lows 25º highs?

There are DDC valves on every unit of all types. The F/C units are not controlled by the thermostats, only the valves. The fans run continuously during "Occupied" times (supposedly state code of some kind mandates that to keep fresh air in rooms while full of breathers). That does cause problems, because when satisfied the heat stops but the fan runs and people complain about drafts. That is only in some ares, however. Some ares have radiators only (those predating adoption of that code requirement I guess). They work great now that I changed about 50 thermostatic traps.

Temp complaints are many, but a lot of that is differ't strokes. What do you mean by normal reaction? Chief knucklehead blames everything on me.

Turning up the pressure does make some problems go away as Dan has pointed out, by MASKING them. Then you don't have to get off the old can and get out there and tackle them. WHY is it not working at 2#? It's "we need to heat these areas NOW", which, really, is understandable.

furnacefigher15

Typical responce

By that I mean if someone states room 152 is cold, what is the procedure? Go to room 152 and investigate, or go to boiler and crank pressure, or ignore until the principle is on the horn?



If the valves controlled by ddc are modulating, then they should have been programmed to maintain a minimum flow, enough to heat the incoming fresh air, but you may have to live with it.



Okay, now we are getting somewhere. 140 degree setting is okay at 25, but too low at 0 and 130 is too low for any radiator or baseboard, and may be too low for fresh air volume.



The example settings are the standard I use.



When the steam pressure was reduced, who was complaining? building with steam or building with hot water? In those buildings was it a specific area?



The key to fixing the bugs is going to fixing the legitimate complaint areas.



When someone complains, go take a look. Bring a thermometer, and not a laser. Some people are just always cold, especially when all they do is sit in front of a bunch of windows and not move. Ever hear the term "cold 70" ?



Even if a rooms air is 70, stand in-front of a window when the outdoor temp is 25, and you will feel cold, because you will become a radiator and start loosing your 98 degrees to that 0 degree window. This is part of why the best place for the heat emitter is in-front of the window.



Compare the thermometer to the set point for the zone or area. If not the system will never work right. Cant use a sensor in room 187 to tell the unit in 154 what to do. I've seen it and it does not work.



For each and every fan coil or series of them in one area , there should be a space temp sensor to give feedback to the ddc controller to tell it what to tell the heating valve to do. The ddc is nothing more then a really complex thermostat that has a lot of inputs to help it make up its mind.

Owen

Typical Response

Someone is usually checking AutomatedLogic first thing every morning. Problems are noted and most days are investigated. There are many areas that are chronically under heated. I think I know what's wrong (air usually, venting is not understood here, but I'm starting to try it) but the fall back has been pressure, even though it doesn't work everywhere. When it doesn't, it's time to scratch the head, ponder a moment, then go for coffee.



That said about response, many critical components are not attended to until they break, stop working or catch fire.



I was assigned to change filters as needed, which is usually after 3-4 months. There are about 600 all told. I check/change belts & inspect (insofar as my knowledge allows) & lubricate when required (that's another post). That has allowed me to become familiar with pretty much every heating unit. The boiler stuff was secondary. All the guy I replaced did was blow-down every Friday. I started keeping seven log books, cleaned out all the boiler rooms, put in good lighting and started asking a lot of questions. When I found this website I felt like I'd hit gold.



There are space temp sensors where they should be as far as I know. I'll check, but I think it's ok on that.



Hysteresis and all that, right? I'm just barely starting to come to an understanding of that concept/function.

furnacefigher15

Owen

I think the very fact that you are here trying to learn more is great, and speaks volumes about the quality of building engineer you are in comparison to your peers, whether they poses more knowledge or not.



I can tell you this, no one knows everything, but knowing what your limits are and where to go to find answers is critical.



My advise for now is to not make any changes that you can't undo easily. Gather as much info as you can about the systems.



Many times the first thing i'll do when I go to service a new location is take a mental or physical sketch of the piping, and components and then try to reverse engineer the conceptual design, and you ought to do the same.



Also don't rely on the graphics on the ddc interface for piping layout or actual valve positions or temps etc... Sensors lie all the time.

Owen

Contractor

We have some of the plans & specs for some of the many buildings and many, many additions over the years. I was a self employed ceramic tile contractor and had to learn how to read drawings by necessity, and I think am quite good at it. On some of the systems I have copied certain pages of the drawings and have mapped out the location of all the traps, when I changed them, where all the steam & condensate lines are, spec.'d size (often not what was installed) and how it all is suposed to work, stuff like that. Nobody around here has ever done anything like that. Don't forget, there are seven of them (Steam Systems; there are 13 buildings, scattered over many sq. miles) and it really is hard to keep up.

But I love it. I felt like I'd found my niche and it was something cool! I love the "Lost Art"

aspect of it.

When I started in ceramic tile, nobody was doing it really and it was a "Lost Art". That lasted about ten years and then everybody and his brother-in-law decided to be a Tile Mason. But tile is just a surface finish. Steam is part of the GUTS of a building and I've always been fascinated with all things architecture, especially the workings.

Owen

Sensors Lie?

NO!!!??

I know that, you know that but around here ... Who you gonna believe, your own eyes (or a thermometer) or that sensor? They certainly cost a hell of a lot more.

furnacefigher15

Owen

I know it seems like a lot to know, but as a building engineer you have a unique advantage of the contractors and consultants, and that is time.



You have an abundance of time to learn the intricacies of your systems. Neither I nor anyone else expects you to solve 50 years of ineptitude on the behalf of all the lazy paycheck grabbers you work with over night.



Many Miles? You may need that pressure.

Owen

That's Funny

"Building Engineer". Garbage men are "Sanitation Engineers".

And sorry, I'm 59 years old and the biological candle has burned through the years like sand through an hourglass (mixed metaphor). I'm in a fetchin' hurry to get things done and make a real damn difference. As a taxpayer, I was particularly perturbed by all the waste I would see here, as a patron with two children who went through this place, and myself and my wife did, and as a contractor when I saw up close how poorly and indifferently everything was run. I've got an agenda, man, and I intend to see it through. However, you are right that compared to contracting, there is time to study things, do research, make repairs and changes & then go back later and refine, tweek, re-do, add to etc. I like that. But still, let's go here!

Rod

Building Engineer

Hi- Actually "Building Engineer" is a good respected title for what you do. Like a steam locomotive engineer or a marine engineer, you have a lot of responsibility.  Having seen a few old school heating systems in my time, most of which are old enough to vote and a few soon eligible to collect social security, I have a high amount of respect for anyone that can keep them running considering their age and the lack of funding for maintenance. In a school your job is as vital as a teacher's as the kids sure aren't going to learn anything if they are freezing to death.

- Rod