Question for homeowners

DanHolohan

Let's say you call a professional for an estimate and he shows up with an iPad (with apps to calculate the job), an iPhone, an electronic tape measure (instead of an old-school one). In other words, lots of pricey tools (toys?). Does this make you feel good, bad, or indifferent about the estimate?



Just exploring a comment made by my son-in-law.



Thanks.

ivanator2

re:question for homeowners

Like most things in life, from my point of view, it communicates multiple things. And none of them may be true, but ...



It implies you're probably reasonably smart and current and technical, which is good.



It also might imply you do pretty well. This would not be my first thought though.



I work with a lot of technology and have an iphone. But if your customer is a neophyte when it comes to technology, it might imply to him lot's of pricey toys that he's helping pay for.

Jean-David Beyer

It is not so simple.

We had a job at my Quaker Meeting (200 year old building) where some heating ducts needed replacement because a knucklehead designed and installed the existing system. We called in three contractors for estimates. None of these were small 1-man outfits.



The first one would not make an appointment. He said he would send someone when he had the time. We need a few days notice to get someone over there because the building is usually unoccupied during normal business hours. He would not make an appointment for a specific day and hour, even though we gave him the choice to set the day an hour to suit his convenience. So we have no idea what tools he had. So he was out.



The second one came over, glanced at the building, and sent us a quote in a few days by mail. He did not ask any questions. So he was out.



The third one came over, examined the building carefully, including the height of the ceilings (about 2 1/2 stories high) with an ultrasonic tape measure, the size of the 200 year old windows, went to the attic to see what the wall were made of, asked a lot of appropriate questions (suggested we would need new furnaces soon -- and he was right about that), and submitted a bid a little higher than the second contractor. This was about 15 years ago, and he did not bring a computer. Probably had one at the office though. He got the job. He also got the service contract for the system (two forced hot air furnaces, 125,000 BTU/hour each). He also got the job a few years later when the heat exchangers developed pinhole leaks.



When I got my 60 year old oil burner replaced by a mod-con gas boiler, they submitted a good bid that I accepted because of good past experience with them. Unfortunately, they had grown so large that there were more problems than in the past, and I have gone to a different contractor for my maintenance contract. Later, the Quaker Meeting also went to a different maintenance contractor. It is a pity things ended up that way. I am glad I do not have to manage a business.



Would the high-tech equipment impress me? I was in the digital system design business for over 25 years, designing electronic systems and a lot of computer programming, so I am not really impressed by that stuff. I am impressed by the person knowing what he is doing, and if the computers enable him to do it quicker, or cheaper, or more accurately, that is a plus. But if he does it all with a tape measure, thermometer, a clipboard with a pad and a pencil, and calculates everything in his office with an adding machine, that is OK. I am impressed with what he does, not how he does it. Only trouble is finding someone who knows what he is going without going to the pain and expense of using a knucklehead first.

STEVEusaPA

Interestion question Dan

I'm currently exploring a tablet, probably Ipad for some of those reasons.  Thought it would be nice if loaded with all data about boilers/burners, controls, all OEM specs, customer info, inventory on the truck,etc. to aid in service/troubleshooting.

How nice would it be to instantly call up someone's appliance, and get the OEM setup table for nozzle size, initial air settings, etc. My newest combustion analyzer also has bluetooth, so it would be able to transfer combustion results right into the tablet & customers record, so I can pull up a customer history and see how the appliance was running last time it was serviced.

For estimating, it would be nice to measure and do a heat loss right on the tablet, instead of hand drawing and writing alot of notes (that I sometimes can't decipher later).  Take pictures, etc. Add a small printer for invoices and estimates.  Take the tablet back at the end of the day and sync all data with office computer. 

I think technology, used properly, just presents a better image, reduces alot of paperwork, and helps avoids errors.  I've also used a rotary laser in basements to set a level line to check steam pipe pitches and A/B dimesions.

And finally, Home Depot uses tablets & electronic tape measure to estimate carpet & kitchen installs.  The person draws & immediately estimates the whole job, and prints out/emails the results for you.

Steve_95

contractor remorse

Finally a subject that I have enough knowledge to comment on. I read this site daily ever since I found my steam expert on Find a Contractor. He's great but I have had a string of bad luck with contractors (electrical, home renovation etc) since him.

Based on my recent experience I wouldn't much care if he had all the "toys" available. The reality is that we consumers/homeowners contribute to his equipment purchases whether he has a laser level or a 9" torpedo level. So I wouldn't automatically be concerned that his price would be inflated.

However, if he drives up to my house in an Escalade I might wonder...

I am more concerned with: can he look me in the eye, does he actually listen to my concerns when I voice them. If he can't wipe his feet before walking in the door I don't want to invite him back. May sound silly but at the end of the day my contractor and I are just two people who need to work together to see that the job is done right (my side) at a fair profit (his side). My opinion...

Robert_25

It still depends on the person...

You could interpret the use of modern electronic devices different ways, but generally I think it shows the user isn't afraid of new technology. Obviously it doesn't matter how many iPads they have if they don't know what they're doing.



I have only had a to deal with a handful of contractors at my own home, and based on my experience so far...I prefer one to two man crews with solid reputations in the local area. If they do good work I don't care if they use an iPad or a clipboard.

DanHolohan

This son-in-law

has a PhD and he won't hire anyone who uses an electronic tape. He says that anyone who can't use an old-school tape won't be able to do the job properly.



He also believes that he's paying for the iPad and the iPhone and that's a huge turnoff when the pro arrives. He'll hire pencil-and-pad pros every time.



I find his views very provocative.

Steve_95

Thanks Dan

"I find his views very provocative."



Sounds like my son-in-law.



An apt description...



Dan, you do have a way with words.

DanHolohan

He's a university professor.

He teaches on the Masters and Doctorate level and writes well-respected papers that, to me, look like bowls of linguini.



He said to me the other day, "I have very good math skills. I can make sense of a thousand data points with five hundred variables, but I can't hang a door."



He is the well-educated customer.

NH03865

As Mark Eatherton always says, it depends.....

I want to see a contractor that has the necessary tools for the job.  If he has a spiffy laser tape measure vs. an old fashioned mechanical one, it really doesn't matter.  Bringing a tape measure and not bring a tape measure matters!! The contractor should decide on the tool that is the most cost effective for him. 



If having an IPad to look up information, take notes or perform calculations on the job site is more cost effective vs. writing down all the information and take it back to the computer at the office and then entering the information into the computer, it doesn't matter.  The contractor that comes, looks as what's there and provides a quote that says replace furnace and A/C unit and just provides a cost estimate is unprepared and did not make a real determination what was necessary for the job. That matters!!



I have had both types of contractors provide estimates.  The job ALWAYS went to the one that took the time to determine what was actually needed, provided a detailed cost estimate, detailed different possible options, provided time to completion estimates even though his price was usually a little higher. With the unprepared guy, I have a significant risk that the work that is done (even if performed with superior workmanship) will not be what is actually required.  It is much more expensive to have it done over than to have it done right.



Perhaps I am in the minority, I believe that a contractor that does not take the time to determine what is needed to a job and to clearly explain to me what services he will provide does not deserve to have my business.  If a contractor arrives to provide an estimate, he should have the tools to do that job.  If he doesn't have the tools to determine a cost estimate properly, he probably doesn't have the tools to perform the actual work properly. 

DanHolohan

That's the point he was making.

When he sees the electronics, he believes the price is high because of the electronics. He has the opposite reaction to pad and pen. 

STEVEusaPA

with all due respect....

Your son-in-law may be a very bright, but a little stubborn in his ideals. I hope he doesnt apply this same philosophy when he gets his car fixed, (all electronic test equipment now), or a tooth pulled (bottle of whiskey vs. novacaine), or God forbid, the tools they used in older surgery & diagnosis. 

 First of all if I was hanging a door, or doing any work, I would only use a regular tape measure, an electronic is only for quickly estimating rooms sizes, sq & cubic feet, etc.

As far as 'he's paying for all those tools', he pays for them anywhere.  Does he want someone to show up in a beat up old truck, a hand pipe threader, and one of those '3 Stooges' era blow torches to solder his pipes?

You know, or at least get a good feel for someone by talking with them. I think a smart guy like him wouldnt pre-judge anyone.

I feel you have to keep an open mind and to embrace the new technology

Just my opinion

Steve_95

perhaps it's generational

My guy (son-in-law) is a Policeman, just made dectective. Works undercover and seemingly can spot a drug deal going down from a mile away.

However, he has not been able to detect that his front door bell stopped working about 2 years ago.

If a contractor showed up at his door with high tech equipment he might wonder if it was stolen. Some people are just cynics.

DanHolohan

Good points, well made,

but what I'm watching with him is a reaction to the technology that's costing some tradesmen business. I'm not trying to change him (I couldn't possibly), but just to marvel at the many complications of this business, and the things that professionals may not consider when it comes to human nature.



He lives in a 100-year-old house and views the trades in a fascinating way. I wonder if the age of the house has something to do with this.

CMadatMe

Use it Everyday

I picked up an I-Pad 2 6 months ago and haven't put it down since. Been in many homes with many homeowners and have yet to hear nothing more then...WOW, I didn't know you could do all that with it. Can do a heat loss with Res Calc, Pump Sizing with Taco, presentations, video, literature and more all at the touch of an app and from your I-Pad to their e-mail in seconds.

I think it shows organization, professionalism and that you care about what your do when its used in the right way. Ask your son-in law if he would purchase a 60" flat screen from a tv salesperson off a piece of literature? He is most likely to get in his car, go to Best Buy, touch it, feel it and ask about it. The I-Pad lets the contractor bring everything he needs to the customers kitchen table. It's also a great conversation tool.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Chris

On our last visit, their TV bit the dust so he and I went out to get another one. We went to Target. He looked at big TVs and asked the salesman what the difference between this one and that one was. The salesman said, "Uh, two-hundred dollars?"



My son-in-law bought the less-expensive one.

Robert O'Brien

I don't worry

I don't worry about stuff like this,you can't please everybody and you're not going to get every job anyway. Use the tools you need to do the job properly,be sincere and let the chips fall where they may

MIke_Jonas

Questions..

Dan,

   What are your son-in-laws' feelings on the vehicle the contractor drives?



The cost of the electronic devices is a drop in the bucket compared to vehicle costs. I see some would not prefer to see a contractor pull up in an Escalade. Would a Yugo make anyone feel better?



Your son-in-law wants someone to use a tape measure? OK, when I take all of these measurements back to my office, does he expect/want me to do an old fashioned, long-form, paper Manual J? Has he ever seen one of these, and does he realize what is involoved with that? Or would the use of load-clac software violate his views?



Would he pay for the time it takes to accomplish this?

Gordy

Proper use of the tools.

And Chris hit a home run with how he uses them. Its the way things are in this day, and age you get with the times, or be left behind.



 The TV anology is a good one also Chris.



 I would never right off anyone who did not have the latest technology, but as Chris pointed out. Being able to show the potential client what equipment he is going to use, and how hes going to do it in his proposal has an edge to a piece of equipment on a bid sheet from a sales stand point.



  I look at a lot of the beautifully done mechanical rooms, and always wonder if the customer actually realized that is what they would be getting for their money. Most people would not have a clue. With the laptop, or the Ipad that is possible to translate to the potential customer. I would like to have that option as a potential customer.



   Your son in law  does not seem to be the type to research a major purchase. For me understanding the product, and the options before I go shopping is a must because I have found that the sales people should, but do not always know the product lines. I went through that whole routine at Best Buy. Know exactly what you want before you get there.





Gordy





 

DanHolohan

A fancy car would bother him.

He'd think that he was paying for it, and he would be of course.



We were with them last week. Someone tried to kick in their back door during the night. We scared away the miscreant, but that led to calls to a door company and an alarm company. Both companies sent people (a female from the door company and a male ex-cop from the alarm company). Both used pen and pad and old-school rulers. Both got his business. He told me he would have made more calls had either shown up with iPads and electronic tapes.



I find this absolutely fascinating.

Jamie Hall

Fascinating!

As several folks have said, to me it is the person himself, and what he (or she) has to say and how they say it.



The electronic gadgetry, to me, is very close to neutral -- but not quite.  I will be very wary, for instance, of a chap who shows up with all the toys and proceeds to quote answers to outrageous precision ("you had a total EDR here of 746.278 square feet, and therefore you need 156,195.7 BTU/hr").  On the other hand, there are times when high precision is necessary, and then he or she had jolly well have the right toys!  But in some 50 years of practice as a registered Professional Civil Engineer, I decided somewhere along the line that like any tool, it's in how it's used, not what it is.



There is one area where the toys are almost undiluted benefit, though: the ability to access, either directly on what you have at hand or through an app. or through the World Wide Web in general, a fund of knowledge and information which most of us could not possibly have individually.  "We see farther... because we stand on the shoulders of giants".



I might note that the Wall is a superb example of this.

DanHolohan

My son-in-law

has a B.A. from Northwestern, an MBA from Notre Dame, and a PhD from the University of Virgina. For Pete's sake, this guy researches what he's going to have for lunch.



His point to me was that when he sees expensive electronics, where pen and paper would do, he assumes that he is being charged more than he should be paying because of the investment the professional is making in the electronics. He doesn't want to pay for all that stuff and feels he is getting better value from the pro who doesn't flash the electronic bling during the estimate.



That's what interests me right now. All the other points you folks are bringing up are captivating, but it's the Don't Wave Your Rolex At Me thing that I'm considering today.

Gordy

The linear mind

 I envy people with a superior fluid understanding of high level math, and science. For some people it just comes easy..... the linear mind.  I would much rather work with my hands, and my mind. At least he admits he is inferiior in some ways. So long as he does not look down on the one who can hang a door.

DanHolohan

Which is why

you are a placid puddle of peace. ;-)

Gordy

Okay Dan

   All I can say is if the guy with the pen, and paper gets the job. He shows up with a propress, and all the latest greatest tools to make the job easier does he get the boot. Where do you draw the line? Is it just because he is aware of the cost of the computer, the phone, and a flashy vehicle?  I think your son in law is just that way, and there probably be no reasoning with him. Unless you could maybe convince him your not that impressed with his aptitude unless he goes to using a slide rule for his thousand data points with 500 variables.



Gordy



  



 

DanHolohan

Not at all!

He admires all tradespeople, and he's very handy himself. He just won't hire people who show up with the electronics. It's nothing more than that. 

DanHolohan

It's the first impression that is the issue.

He doesn't care if the guy goes to work with gold-plated tools. It's just that first time that makes or breaks it for him. And he won't say anything; he just moves on to the next pro, the one who shows up with the pen and paper, and old-school tape. The first guy never knows why he didn't get the job. He never gets a chance to reason with him. That's what caught my attention.



And I'll be there are a lot more people than just my guy who do business this way.



Which is why i asked.

AlexR

It's not how big/expensive/long it is, It's how you use it

Nothing you mentioned is really that expensive compared to a full set of plumbing/heating tools (combustion analyzer, nice wrenches, etc). If someone can use an iPad to price a job quickly and run through options with me, that's great as long as they're not using it as a crutch. If all they know how to do is plug in numbers but can't explain how things work, that's not so impressive, that's like a phone droid you get when you call the credit card company.



Fortunately I don't have a lot of experience with heating contractors, but most of the contractors (eg, water meter replacement, window repair, etc) are pretty chatty if you show some interest in what they're doing. So it's easy to see whether they understand what's going on or not, especially if you do your homework first.

CMadatMe

Perception

Question really is. What bad experience did he have that feeds his perception? Does he choose his lawyer, doctor or investment adviser the same way?



Based on your TV story sounds like he is just plain ole stingey with the green.

DanHolohan

Haha!

Aren't we all?



I think he looks for value. It's how he perceives value that interests me.

Mikey_Walnuts

iPad, iPhone, Droid

Actually, the first thing I would think is that he is up on the new technology and I would see it as a positive, while at the same time expecting the job to be more expensive, not necessarily to pay for the electronics, but because all new stuff (training, ideas) cost more.

However, I would not assume he would be better because of it.

CMadatMe

Still Don't Get

Where his perception comes from? There had to be something that makes his perception feel that way. That would be my question to him.

meplumber

The Lost Art of Conversation.

I am at the low end of the technology spectrum. I keep a laptop in the truck. My genius son (a physics prodigy) showed me how to use the little jump drives to load the hundreds of manuals that i used to carry onto something that fits in my pocket. I have gone as far as a blackberry but that is it for me.



I believe, that most customers don't really care, as long as you talk to them and listen to them. One of the things that appears lost today is the ancient art of conversation. We are so distracted by electronics and email that we forgot how to talk to people face to face.



I had the pleasure of watching my dear old grandad interact with his customers and he taught me as much about this part of plumbing and heating as he did about pipe, valves and fittings. Over time he became part of their family in a way.



When he walked through the door, he asked about their kids and called them by name. He asked about the grandkids and the neighbors. They trusted him.



That is what I strive for. No amount of electronics can replace trust.

bill nye_3

Tape measure and pad of paper

Dan, a PHD maybe, but I couldn't imagine you letting any of your daughters marry an engineer. Well it would be interesting. My self becoming somewhat of an old timer am turned off by fast talking younger people with laptops or computer screens who won't even look you in the eye.

 I think I got most of my jobs by gaining the peoples trust and selling them what I thought they actually needed. I worked for a couple of big companies that were trying to make a sales quota a push a certain brand or item. They had a full time equipment salesman and I was never very impressed. I don't think many customers were either, they seemed to feel more comfortable with me or the other service techs who actually worked on the equipment. Not the suit and tie.

I think I would use an electronic gadget for measuring rooms for heat loss calc's. Never had one , but it seems like it would be a time saver.

Dan, you have given me a real love and appreciation of engineers. I deal with quite a few of them, mostly as customers, the more obtuse and difficult they become I have learned from you to be patient. Eventually they will come around and see the obvious problem at hand. I tell the story about the lunch break sandwich building from your seminars, 1/2 hr lunch for plumbers, 1-1/2 for engineers .... they have to be exact, the plumber just grabs a handful.

Owen

Brand New Ford F-250 vs. old piece 'o crap

This is really funny and interesting. My brother & I were self employed contractors for many years and we would talk about this phenomenon of human perception and how it might affect customer's decision making, but it didn't really matter because neither of us could afford the Ford.

BobC

interesting thread

I think this boils down to different strokes for different folks. It's his money and he is going to spend it his way, don't we all?



Fancy tools can save time and time is money - IF that person knows how to use them efficiently. Knowledge is what counts.



A few decades ago i was running through a qualification test on a power supply that was going to be used on missile launch equipment. Everything went just fine till we took the thing apart after the tests and found a resistor looking a bit toasty. A quick review of the design proved that resistor was dissipating 6 watts not 0.6 as I had calculated - damn slide rule. The real problem is i had not double checked that calculation and did not catch that decimal point slip. The company rep I was working with was a seasoned engineer that was very much real world; the fix was to replace that single 1w resistor with 3ea 2w resistors. It was a potted assembly and carbon composition resistors are not afraid of heat.



So the lesson is to have the right tools, the required knowledge, and double check your work!



Bob

Paul Pollets

By that logic...

he may assume the digital combustion analyzer is just another fancy gadget, not a required tool. As Frank Blau said, "the customer pays for everything". The customer should be shown knowledge, credibility and capability without being distracted by objects that may sway opinion or create bias.



Some customers just care about price, and that's the way it is. Good customers tend to care more than what it costs.

DanHolohan

I'm not explaining well enough.

It's not the tools shown doing the job, it's the flash shown during the estimate that turns him off and causes him to choose someone else. 



Could have something to do with the age of his house. It's all very old school.



Sorry for not being able to make my point more clearly. I'm trying. Seriously!

spt87

Only lack of combustion analyzer would concern me

Wouldn't care one way or the other so long as the person knew what they talking about and was professional (showed up on time, clean, not reeking of alcohol, etc.)

Those electronic gadgets are not that expensive and can be time savers.  An electronic tape measure can make it quicker for one person to check a dimension, a laptop or iPad can allow instant look up of info to answer a question vs waiting for a call back, etc.

But, if the person had no gadgets or low tech gadgets that would be ok too.  The home inspector I used for my last two home purchases had an old laptop running DOS to generate his inspection report.  The guy knew his stuff, took time to talk with me and was a thorough pro.  At the end he gave me a detailed printed report (generated by a DOS program).

The only place I would look for certain equipment is the oil burner tech who I would expect to have some type of combustion analyzer and lack of one would be a red flag.

Mike Kusiak_2

Overdependence on "technology"

Sometimes I wonder if we are getting too dependent on so called "technology". The situation with my own kids comes to mind. When I went to elementary school we had to know how to perform arithmetic in our heads, memorizing multiplication tables, etc. Today, my kids are allowed to use calculators in school and consequently can't do simple mental arithmetic. I always remember how incredibly well my grandmother could do mental computations. Earlier in life, her family owned a grocery store, and without a cash register every transaction she performed had to be calculated manually, most times in her head.



Yes there are definite benefits to the latest gadgets, but they are no substitute for a real understanding of the concepts they tend to oversimplify. They can indeed be useful tools when used to refine and confirm initial observations and estimations. I would much rather deal with someone who has knowledge, experience and intuition,  rather than one who blindly enters data into an electronic device not having a clue as to whether the resulting solution is actually credible.



So Dan, perhaps your son in law may also think along these lines...

DanHolohan

That reminded me

of Maureen Dowd's column from yesterday:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/opinion/dowd-silence-is-golden.html?_r=1&ref=maureendowd