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Thank you w/pics of the Vitodens install

Thank you to everyone who offered help and advice as I worked through my install.  Here it is, all done and running perfectly.  It's a Vitodens 200 with a 53 gallon Vitocell 300 indirect with all Viessmann trim: concentric vent, insulated low loss header, neutralizer, etc.  I'm running the heating circuit with four Taco zone sentry electric valves controlled by a Taco ZVC-404 zone valve controller, a prototype Taco Bumble Bee pump running in delta-T mode at 30 degrees.  The other two pumps for the boiler and water heater loops are Taco 0011 IFCs.  It's running perfectly and condensing great!  All I need to do now is insulate all the hot water pipes and dial in adjustments throughout the heating season.  Thanks again to everyone for the help and support and if anyone has any questions about the Vitodens, just ask because I'm happy to give back to the board in any way I can.

Comments

  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Nice Job!!

    Nice work! You should enjoy years of comfort (and lower fuel and electric costs).
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    0011fc

    Nice looking job.

    Quick questions:

    What's the sizes of each of the four zones?

    Why the 30* dt?

    And just curious, why 0011's?
    :NYplumber:
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    Thanks

    Two of the zones are 3/4 inch and two are 1 inch.  I used 0011 becasue they're the Taco equivalent to the Grundfos UPS-26-99 on speed two (that's the pump recommended by Viessmann).  I used the Taco pumps because they provided excellent service and technical support while I was designing and specing everything, plus I wanted to use the Bumble Bee.  Throughout the system, I tried to keep everything within just a couple of "families" - Viessmann, Taco, and Watts (Watts fittings were supplied with the boiler from Viessmann).  As for the 30 degree delta-T, that was the recommended setting per the class I took at Viessmann and other things I had read.  The Bumble Bee has strap-on sensors that I attached on the back of the supply and return pipes.   Do you think there's a better setting?
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,621
    Bob, could you e-mail

    me those pictures as I will include them in my Volume III Mod/Con Manual. Pleas also your full name and company so I can give credit. Thanks in advance, my e-mail is gastc@cox.net
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    check your email....

    just sent the info!
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    check your email....

    just sent the info!
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,621
    Yes I got them

    thank you very much, I wish you luck with the install and getting the coding setup.



    I may connect up with you sometime and take at look at the install there in Cranston. Just sort of busy right now but I have your e-mail so I will let you know.
  • James Day_2
    James Day_2 Member Posts: 191
    viessmann

    the 200 is my favorite boiler. you cant beet the lambda pro technology.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    edited October 2011
    btu

    Thanks for the info.



    Do you know the btu load per zone, just curious.





    As for 30* dt, I'm far from the end all answer, however 30* sounds excessive. A lot of systems designed on a 20* dt end up at a 10* due to over pumping, therefore I think an actual 30* setting is far from the 20* dt calculation.



    Pros, ME, TIM, ironman, correct me if I'm wrong.



    Time to read the viessmann manual and compare it to lochinvar.
    :NYplumber:
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Quick Question

    Very nice job Bob. May I ask why I see BX from the zone control to the PPM? How did you power the Bumble Bee? Again nice looking job.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    BX to PPM

    Chris, sometimes, I will piggyback off the 20 plug on the PPM to ZC on the SR control. This gives me warm weather shutdown on any constant circulation zones and deactivates the circs on Tstat zones.
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    Great question

    The wire feeds power from the PPM over to the zone valve controller.  The PPM is plugged into an outlet that's switched and has a Firematic thermal controller as well (you can see it above the concentric vent, attached to the floor joist).  That way, when I flip the emergeny switch or if the Firematic trips, everything shuts off at once.

    For powering the Bumble Bee, I had two options:  Use the output from the PPM, or use the end switch from the zone valve controller.  I chose the latter, the reason being is it eliminated the possbility of the BB running dead headed against closed valves, say in the situation where the boiler's outdoor reset was calling for heat while the thermostats were satisfied (closed).  Taco told me there wouldn't be any issue with the BB operating in a dead situation (it can take it) but I wanted to avoid it.  I also could have installed a differential bypass valve but that was extra cost and complexity.

    The only thing I lose by powering from the zone valve vs. the PPM is the Vitoden's feature that periodically exercises the pump during the summer season.

    The other thing I've noticed is that the BB tends to run a lot more often in this situation because there are times when the boiler shuts down before the zones are satisfied.  So the thermostats are still calling for heat which means the valves are open and the BB is powered on.  It's not a big issue, especially since the most power I've seen it consume is 8 watts, and I'll correct it as I get the system more accurately dialed in.  There's a lot of control, but it takes gradual changes over time to find the proper balance based on the loss characteristics of the house.  And it's all really dependent on finding the point that satisfies the highest demand zone at the lowest possible boiler setting.

    Sounds complex but it's really not.  If I had a bit more experience with heating systems, it'd be easier....but things are working better than I expected especially since I basically knew nothing about this stuff a year ago.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Taco Makes

    A pump exercise card for exp controls if you'd like to exercise that pump. You will see quite often that the boiler is off and the system pump is running. The boiler is looking st LLH temp and if it sees enough water temp to satifiy the system it won't fire or will shut down. Boiler doesn't care. When you can control delta you see if more often. Have you tried to strech out that delta to 40 to match the delta across the boiler?



    I thought you may be sleeved some tt wire from the end switch on the zone control to the 143 plug.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    edited October 2011
    thanks

    I was aware of the EXP option but I'm not overly concerned about running the pump in the off season.  My old system had four separate circulators and failure on those was pretty rare.  Hopefully that's not a mistake on my part.

    I'm running a 30 deg delta-T right now controlled by the bumble bee (there are sensors strapped to the back of the return and supply lines, and the delta-T setting is set through the Bumble Bee).  I don't understand yet what the LLH does, other than isolate the boiler loop from the heating circuit.  I have noticed a "com. suply temp" reading on the display and I assume that's the temp in the LLH?  Sometimes it's the same as the boiler temp, other times it's quite a bit lower.  I would have expected that the LLH temp (if that's what the "com. supply temp is) would be about 30 degrees lower than the boiler supply (based on the delta T setting).



    I also don't understand yet what the 143 plug is used for.  I'm re-reading all the manuals now but, honestly, they really don't give much theoretical information or explanation about the various plugs and control options.



    My ideal situation would be to be able to power the Bumble Bee from the PPM to retain the exercise feature, but have it (the Bumble Bee system pump) operate ONLY when there's a call for heat (i.e. when one or more of the thermostats are calling for heat, and when one or more of the four zone valves have opened). No one I've spoken to or worked with has been able to tell me how to do that.  Would plug 143 help get me there?
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Common Supply Temp

    Yes common supply temp is LLH temp. The boiler is only concerned with making sure the temp in the LLH is enough to satisfy the system based on your outdoor temp. Since your system side delta-t is out to 30 the boiler will most of the time have a higher temp then the header. There is a formula you can use to calculate what the boiler needs to make in order to supply the systems need. I've attached Viessmanns TDM on LLH's as well as a nice piece written by Caleffi on LLH's.

    If the boiler sees that it is giving enough hot water to the LLH it will not fire. Remember also that that boiler pump is sized to maintain a 40 degree delta-t across the boiler. That's why the small boiler flow rates.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    Thanks

    Thanks, I'll experiment with a 40 degree delta T and see how things work, right now everything is great at 30.  It's amazing how little this boiler is running.  It's been up for heat and hot water for 7+ days now and it's only showing 18 hours of burner run time. 
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
    30* Delta T...

    A 30* Delta T is common design in European hydronics, especially panel rads. Running a wider Delta T can provide more condensing time which, as you know, keeps the efficiency higher.



    A 20* Delta T is standard in American hydronics because it makes the math easy: 1gpm = 10k btu's.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    edited October 2011
    d vs p

    40dt on the boiler is perfect.

    30 on the system side is great for condensing.



    I'm stuck between putting a Grunfos Alpha or the BB for the main system pump. It's for my own home so I have the luxury to try both. I'm concerned the Alpha will overpump my system.



    Can someone chime in on the lochinvar knight firetube vs the vitidens 200?
    :NYplumber:
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Can't

    speak to the lochinvar except to the fact that it is the old Triangle HX before they went out and found a new supplier. Mark may have some insight on the boiler.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    Nyplumber

    I can't speak to the pumping characteristics of the alpha, but I can tell you the bumble bee in my situation has been pumping through four zones at a pretty constant 6.5 gpm. The bb operates in one of four modes - 1. Constant speed (fours different choices) 2. Delta t (adjustable from 5 to 50) 3. Fixed supply temp (65 to 220 F) and 4. Outdoor reset (future option not on my prototype). If you need the instruction sheet on the bb, send me a pm and I'll send you a PDF copy.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    edited October 2011
    constant

    How does constant speed compare to constant head?



    Constant pressure on the Alpha has worked well so far on my other jobs.
    :NYplumber:
  • veissman_Bob
    veissman_Bob Member Posts: 48
    Haven't tried it myself

    I've only run it in delta T so I really can't say. So far the only problem I'm having is that the second floor seems cooler than the first but I think that's got more to do with the loss characteristics of the house than the pump setting. 
This discussion has been closed.