Still another rotted-out atmospheric gas steamer

Steamhead

probably the worst we've seen yet. The flueways on the ends of this one were completely plugged with rust. The house had an underground return, lousy near-boiler piping and some leaky vents. It's combination one-pipe/two-pipe air-vent system which also has some piping issues, mostly on the return connections. First job was to get the heat back on!

Steamhead

New Slant/Fin Intrepid and Carlin EZ-Gas

complete with the acoustic cover that does a great job of making these burners run more quietly, a three-inch header, a Hydrolevel VXT and a new wet return. It's heating much better- we'll probably do the system piping work in early spring.



These rotted-out atmospherics are getting to be a habit- just got a call to look at another one!

Techman

Size

What is the boiler BTU? That looks like a large flue pipe/draft regulator.

Steamhead

Only because it's looking right at you

It's a TR-40, and we're firing it at 200 MBH- slightly below its rated capacity. The breech is 7-inch, and the baro is 8-inch, which is proper for good draft regulation with a coal-designed chimney that can pull pets and small children up to the roof.

Mark N

Rotted Boilers

Steamhead we all know that atmospheric gas boilers will rust out when they have get to much feed water because of leaky returns or vents. What about the wet base boilers, will they rot out also. I haven't seen any pictures posted of rotted out wet base boilers. How old was this boiler that you removed? My neighbors had a rotted out boiler replaced a few years ago. It was 36 years old.

Steamhead

The ones we've been running into lately

were all atmospherics, some of which were only a few years old. True, there are a lot of atmospherics out there, but we have enough wet-base boilers in our customer base to see that they tend to last longer- unless a low-water cutoff fails! The only time I can remember having a wet-base rot out like this was on a well system near a main highway that got a lot of salt during the winter. We replaced that one with a MegaSteam. Here's the link to that thread:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128408/A-Very-Special-MegaSteam



And I won't mention brand names, but if you read the I&O manuals of certain atmospherics, they set very low limits on the amount of make-up water these things will tolerate. I don't think that translates too well to what we find in the real world.



Burnham has researched this issue a lot, and IIRC they concluded that the rotting (oxygen corrosion) would start just above the waterline because that was where the iron got hotter, since it had no water behind it to carry the heat away. I think atmospherics are more susceptible to this type of failure since all the cast-iron is located above the burners, so the heat is concentrated into a smaller space. The failures don't seem to be limited to one brand- we've seen it happen to most brands in this area.



The design of the Burnham MegaSteam was based on their corrosion research- this is why it has the best warranty in the business. Unfortunately, someone at Burnham just doesn't want to sell the MegaSteam with a gas burner. I cannot understand why they would develop a really superior product and then limit it to the shrinking oil-fired market. It makes absolutely no business sense.

Gordo

Here's a FLIR picture

of one of the two-pipe air vent radiators.



Because the return piping is not dripped below the waterline in the basement, steam is coming at this radiator from both ends.



The second picture is a cat enjoying the warmth.  Happy Halloween!

Charlie from wmass

I see quite a few wet base boilers

that were exposed to lots of fresh water and they corrode at the same level. I think it is a matter of seeing the atmospheric boilers more. Bad installs are what I usually blame along with poor system maintenance more than boiler design. That said some boilers do not hold up well.

Terry in NJ

noise comparison

do you have a video or sound meter reading that shows a comparison of the sound produced with and without the the acoustic cover? Thank you.

ChrisJ

rotted out V8

When I bought this house last April it had a rotted our Burnham V83 whos block was only 5 years old. The block had been replaced previously when it was only 3 years. two blocks in less than 10 years all due to several leaks.



To me that suggests wet based rott out just as well but to be honest, I've only had my hands on two boilers and the second one isn't hooked up yet

Steamhead

I seem to remember

that the water in the New York/New England area had more chlorides in it than usual, and that was contributing to boilers rotting out. Pretty much all of our customers are on the Baltimore Metropolitan District water system. The local government hasn't completely screwed this system up, so it produces pretty good water. Maybe that explains the difference.

BobC

Well water?

I live just south of Boston and have a 16 year old Burnham V75 that uses city water from the Quabbin reservoir. The boiler was cleaned and pronounced to be in good health last month.



I suspect the high chloride problem may be with water systems in southern New England that use well water.



Bob 

Steamhead

Possibly

the Baltimore system gets its water from the Gunpowder and Patapsco rivers. It can also draw from the Susquehanna if needed, which changes the taste of the water noticeably. They haven't had to do this in recent years that I know of.

nicholas bonham-carter

extending the steam chest

if you had very good over-sized headers on the boiler, would an elevated waterline increase the life of the sections of the boiler? i am thinking about reducing the area of cast iron which is not in contact with water during steaming. naturally this is not meant to protect against water/steam leaks bringing fresh water into the boiler.

the header would be easier to replace than the sections down the line!--nbc

Steamhead

Don't have a sound level meter

so I can only tell you it does make a difference. 

Steamhead

Not sure that would work

the steam tappings' exit velocity would still be the limiting factor.

Jamie Hall

A brief thought on water...

but first -- Steamhead, do you ever get tired of replacing rotted out boilers?!



Well water -- anywhere -- is widely variable in quality.  Some wells in New England do indeed have relatively high chloride levels, but these tend to be in shallow (sand or gravel) aquifers which are either near roads or near the ocean.  There are some municipal supplies which are surprisingly high in chlorides -- either because they are from high chloride wells or because their surface supplies are contaminated by road salting operations.  This is a big problem!



Otherwise, they are all over the map.  For rock wells in particular, it depends a lot on the exact geology being tapped, but in general in New England the wells will be relatively low in hardness (the outstanding exception there in New England is the limestone and marble belt in western Vermont, Massachusetts, and Connecticut), but remarkably (sometimes extraordinarily) high in acid, as much New England rock can't buffer (neutralize) the acidity of the rain.  Treatment for low pH may be required, which adds carbonate but not chlorides, as low pH can really do a number on copper pipe.  Low pH, though, should not be a problem for steam heating systems.  Wells with hard water -- common in the midwest -- may need softening for domestic use; in my opinion, though, softened water should never be used for domestic heating boiler makeup, as the hopefully minor scaling problems from the hardness are not as bad as the corrosion from the chlorides added in softening.



My own view is that a much more serious problem with any water supply is adding too much water; if the vents are working right, a steamer should use very little water except what is absolutely required for blowdown to keep controls and returns working.  The point here is that once the initial chemical reactions have occurred in the system with the fill, they'll stop -- unless you add more water. 



I could be wrong... 



 

Tim McElwain

My take on why

atmospheric boilers rot out is a simple one.



For years the gas companies promoted that their boilers and furnaces ran clean and did not need annual service or cleaning. That was never true, I for years argued when I worked for a utility that annual cleaning and service along with combustion testing needed to be done. If you do not clean the pictures we see are the result.



The interesting thing is some of the old boilers pre 1950's had wider passages through the boilers so they were more forgiving. Steam boilers because of the need to flush the LWCO and add water was definitely a problem that affected the water side but also made its way to the fire side. The tighter sections on the newer boilers are not very forgiving as to corrosion and the need for cleaning. 



This along with the acidic condensate from gas added to the interior deterioration of equipment.



As for Burnhams stand on not allowing conversions of their oil boilers to gas it is simply a concern that boiler efficiency would be lost. They find that conversions to gas burners will not give above 81 to 82% efficiency. They would like to see all Burnham products giving 84% or more.

Steamhead

I think they could do it

with the right burner and the proper tuning. Even if you did lose a point or so, a gas-fired MegaSteam would still outperform an atmospheric. Burnham's Independence series is listed as having AFUE ratings of 81-82% and thermal efficiencies of about 82% depending on which model. Some other atmospherics have even lower thermal efficiencies.The MegaSteam with gas burner would perform better, and it would last longer too!

Dave in QCA

AHRI observations

I have noticed that boilers that are available with either an oil or gas burner, often times the manufacturer will only post the efficiency ratings for oil, without clearly stating that is the case.  A little research on the AHRI website reveals that all boilers will run 1-2% less efficient on gas than on oil.  I suppose it is just the nature of the way the fuel burns and the amount of excess air that is necessary to provide complete combustion. 

So, I agree a Megasteam would probably have an AFU efficiency of 84% burning nat gas as compared to the 86% for oil.

It would still be the best boiler on the market!  But then, could Burnham actually produce the number of Megasteam boilers that would be in demand?  What would they do with the other product lines?  If they introduced the Megasteam for gas, it would be less than their miraculous 86% and perhaps that is the big concern.  So why don't they introduce it as a different name.  Supersteam perhaps....   the only residential gas boiler for steam that is that high perhaps.  And the durability and warrantee!  I would buy one in a heartbeat.  Actually, I'd buy two!

Steamhead

They could still sell atmospherics

to landlords and gas suppliers, at least until energy-efficiency standards go high enough that atmospherics can't meet them. But those who care about efficiency and durability would go with the MegaSteam with gas burner.



Can you post a link to that AHRI page- I can't seem to find it......

Dave in QCA

AHRI directory

Sure thing!  Here it is!



http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx

Tim McElwain

I find that

AHRI formerly GAMA/Hydronics Institute/IBR information is not always accurate as it is typically done in a lab under defined testing procedures. After installing over 3,500 conversion burners including the old upshot atmospheric and inshot burners. In the years from the 1970's up to the present power gas burners. In all cases never had a combustion efficiency below 75% on any job.



In recent years on design oil boilers with Carlin G3B and EZ along with Midco EC200 & 300 combustion efficiencies of 82% up to 86%. There are many things you learn when converting that can be done to take boilers beyond there rated characteristics and fire them at their maximum firing rate along with increasing Time-Turbulence-Temperature inside the boiler or furnace which also increases thermal efficiency.



The actual measure of these special techniques is on the customers actual gas usage and their bills as related to cubic foot usage.



So I find that I can take boilers and furnaces beyond what AGA, UL or other testing does. This can all be done safely and efficiently, it just takes some work. It also requires follow up and re-cleaning after the conversion so residuals left from the oil after running time can be cleaned from the sections and also the chimney or vent.

Smith19

Power Gas burners

I just was curious about the carlin EZ fire burners along with the PF x4's. Can these burners be purchased online? what boilers specifically are they rated for? Do they run well with a hydronic boiler? I'm looking into a new system and I figured that it may be a less expensive option than a condensing heat exchanger type boiler.

Tim McElwain

Conversion burners

I just was curious about the Carlin EZ fire burners along with the PF x4's.





Answer:PF x4s not sure what you are talking about is it Power Flame you are referring to?





Can these burners be purchased on line





Answer: I do not know if they can be purchased on line as I never buy anything sight unseen. I work close in hand with a local distributor for anything heating related that I purchase.





 what boilers specifically are they rated for?





Answer: Most design steam and forced hot water oil boilers are convertible if the installer knows what they are doing. That is usually the issue getting a professional contractor who understands combustion and has mastered the process of converting along with the ability to use a combustion analyzer and correctly interpret his findings. Carlin has a manual which they list a number of different boilers they have tested with their burners so that can be very helpful.





 Do they run well with a hydronic boiler? I'm looking into a new system and I figured that it may be a less expensive option than a condensing heat exchanger type boiler.





Answer: By Hydronic I assume you may mean Forced Hot Water? The answer is conversion burners installed into a well designed FHW oil design boiler can be in the combustion efficiency range of 80% most of the time. Some boiler manufacturers do not recommend converting their boilers as they do not feel high enough efficiencies can be obtained. I personally have not found that to be true. I must add however that you will not have all the features of Modulating/Condensing boilers nor will you reach those efficiencies they offer. The trade off is cost of purchase and installation costs