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new TT Solo 60 propane, yellow flame?
Comments
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current status
I put in new control board with green dot, would not fire off even once, I returned it to TT, now using original board that fires off most of the time.
I also get a variable delayed ignition noise.
I engineered & installed a solonoid that automatically pushes the reset button when E02 happens, this way I can leave house for extended time when its cold outside.
Implementation:
When an E02 happens, either the DHW or the CH pump remains on. I use this to pick a relay (one for each pump) the relay N/O points isolate the 2 pumps from each other & provide 120vac to an adjustable Fenwal thermal switch (break on temp rise) I mounted this on the boiler supply pipe & set it to 110*
If the thermal switch is cooler than 110* the 120vac is sent to a 10 minute Time Delay Relay (delay on make) (TDR)
If 10 minutes expire & the boiler is not producing hot water, the 120vac is sent on to a 2 second TDR, this relay passes the 120vac on to a 9vdc mini power supply that energizes the solonoid which pushes the reset button for 2 seconds. A set of N/C points in the 2 sec. TDR opens at 2 sec. & opens the 120vac to the 10 min. TDR which resets its 10 min. cycle. So this will retry every 10 min. if required.
WORKS EVERY TIME!
I have received advice from a different brand factory Tech support guy to open up the igniter gap by 1/16" to about 5/16" & add a better ground wire.
I have adjusted the gas throttle screw from rich to lean ends of spec repeatedly, make no difference on E02. Right now its toward the lean end in order to get CO into spec.
High Fire CO2=11.1, O2=4.0, X-air=23.6, CO=86ppm
Venting is correct, I think, about 20' equivalent of 3" PVC. Both vent & intake go through rim board about 1' below floor which is about 3' below boiler.0 -
What Happens
When you get other error codes in the future? Did you just build a potential launch pad for a deadly problem?There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Could this be your Problem?
"Both vent & intake go through rim board about 1' below floor which is about 3' below boiler."
You cannot run the flue pipe downward from the boiler; it must rise upward from the boiler at a minimum of 1/4" per foot. You may be trapping water in the flue or the water vapors may be coming back up into the combustion chamber during the off cycle.
A lot of problems could be avoided if the words at the beginning of the I&O manual were heeded:
"Installation and service must be performed by a qualified installer, service agency or
the gas supplier."Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
vent
There is no water trapped in my vent, none.
I have read the TT venting supplement & don't see any violation.
It is a power vented boiler.
I searched for info "National Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54" & so far haven't found info?
PS this same venting worked for 10 years with previous boiler.0 -
Venting
I believe Bob caught something in your details. No where in the installation instructions for venting with any condensing boiler, or power vented water heater that I'm aware of does it show vent termination below the elevation of the exhaust vent of the boiler. TT's installation manual is not as detailed in venting options as other manufactures, but it does not show a scenerio where vent termination is below the boiler.
Ask the TT Tech you have been talking to about your issues if this is okay to do, I will bet not, and I'm sure that has not crossed his mind as part of the problem since this is not common install practice.
I mean come on your engineering a device to reset the error code? What was the old boiler using this same venting?
Gordy
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Old PS60
Max equiv vent distance on 3" was 60'. I see a post above where you stated 30ft is that counting both fresh air and vent? Are you also counting 90's, they are worth 5'? I tend to agree with the others. Venting maybe the culprit...There was an error rendering this rich post.
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vent
About 20' equivalent each, yes counting 90*'s as 5'
Condensation in vent runs outside, that is from the 2nd 90* that turns down.
Boiler does an extensive air purge prior to every fire.0 -
Condensate
If the condensate runs outside then the boiler in essence is not condensing, ie capturing the latent heat. Seems like a waste in my opinion.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Fire tube design
gordy Uses the condensate to help clean the HX. I would suggest you get back in touch with tech support, and explain your venting configuration. At least if it is not an issue then you would know.
Gordy0 -
condensate
Chris, condensing in the boiler is suppose to be better from what I read, but nothing can be done about condensing in the vent, just drain it.
WHY is condensing in the vent inside the house not adding heat to the house? I know most of it exits with the exhaust. Phase change from water vapor to liquid is an exothermic process, this must heat up the vent & some of that heat is radiated.
Read M.E.'s posts on condensing in the vent, he has proof that condensing in the vent is WAY more prevalent than boiler companies talk about.0 -
James, come on.
You are nitpicking about condensation in the vent and completely ignoring the elephant in the room, which is venting downward. It is fine to have a problem, and it is fine to ask for help resolving it, and it is even fine to argue/disagree with some of the advice given. What is not fine, in my view, is not practicing intellectual honesty in your disagreement. You have an aversion toward recognizing that you yourself may have created the problem and that's understandable, but having a blind spot will not get you closer to the resolution.
Exhaust gases want to rise due to buoyancy, and the combustion blower has to overcome this added resistance in order to blow them downward. You've got very experienced professionals here telling you that downward venting is a no-no; if that doesn't get you to listen then it should at least get you to do what was suggested earlier: call TT tech support and ask. I even mentioned very early on in this thread that I'd seen issues with lighting off when I had a partial vent blockage. Do you think all of this together might be enough to get you to consider that there might be an issue with your venting, and experiment with getting that out of the equation to see if it fixes things?0 -
exhaust gases
I was thinking about the buoyancy of the exhaust gasses fighting the vent configuration also Gordan.
Gordy0 -
?
Gordon, Nitpicking? you sure didn't take from my comments what I was trying to say.
I have sent this question to Chris Turnbull @ TT Tech support, hopefully he will respond.
I have been googleing this for days.
http://www.hvacwebconnection.com/hvacarticles/ventingtoday1.htm
"It also recognizes that any appliance can present a condensation problem in a cold climate.
High-efficiency condensing appliances have a seasonal efficiency of 90 percent or higher, which reduces vent gas temperatures to a point where the water vapor produced as a product of combustion condenses to liquid water in the appliance or in the vent. These condensing appliances carry a vented appliance category of Category IV. This type of appliance produces much cooler vent gases, resulting in water condensing in the vent. Venting must be accomplished with a fan, because the vent gases are not hot enough to operate the natural draft vent. Water will condense in the vent and will dissolve some of the gases produced during combustion, which are slightly acidic. The vent materials used with these appliances must be able to resist the acidic condensate. For many of these Category IV appliances, plastic vent material is acceptable and preferred for corrosion reasons."0 -
Condensate
Is suppose to drain back to the boiler not out of the vent. How else would the boiler be able to pull out the latent heat? Condenstate also has another job which is to keep the passages clean. You will see a reduction in efficiency over time as build up will have limited condensate to wash itself away.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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No nit picking
Only trying to help you understand. What do you think the purpose of the condensate drain on the boiler is.
If it were a good idea to slope your exhaust vent away from the boiler then the manufactures would have done it, and eliminated the need for a condensate drain on the boiler.
A gauge of how well your Mod/Con is performing in low temp operation is how much condensate it is producing. As Chris said it is extracting the latent heat out of the condensate as it is draining over the HX, along with cleaning the said HX.
The venting configuration you have is skimming the cream off the milk so to speak. The good stuff is running outside, and not getting the heat extracted.
It could also create a blocked vent when it gets really cold she may freeze up solid.
So please do let us know TT's answer to the question. Whether it has anything to do with your issue, and if not is it proper venting practice.
Gordy0 -
How far apart?
What is the real difference in height between the boiler and outside exhaust point?
You said three feet?
Or is it really seven feet?
Just wondering.0 -
pipes
My 3' in above post was from bottom of boiler from memory without measuring.
Top of boiler is about 7' above floor.
Pipes exit/enter through rimboard just under floor, so around 8' below top of boiler.
I get condensate drip out of boiler trap, rate varies depending on level of modulation & return water temp.
Also system is staple-up under subfloor, so it's a medium temperature setup using ODR.
Right now it's 32* outside boiler will run for about 2 hrs. supply=126* return=124*
House has R65 ceilings & R35 walls, tripple windows + storm window.
Only needs about 10 btu/hr/ft2 at 0*
At 0* house cools off about 1* / hr. with boiler off.
High altitude & LP reduce condensate.
So what % difference in efficiency would I get if I went straight out the wall about 18" with the vent from the top of boiler?
This would be a BIG pain as the wall has a brick venieer & I would have to use a scaffold.0 -
Latent Heat from condensate
I admit I may be a little overly zealous on how much latent heat gets extracted from the exhaust gas condensate that gets past the HX. The more exhaust pipe in the structure the more latent heat from that gets transfered internally to the structure.
The condensate from gases already past the HX drain straight to the the condensate drain. Another path for the latent heat of the condensate to be absorbed inside the structure.
With that being said the condensate cleaning the firetube style HX is formed during combustion inside the HX not what flows back from the vent which gets taken directly to the condensate drain.
Gordans argument of the exhaust gas bouancy from a reversed pitched exhaust vent, in this case more than just reversed pitch seems to play the bigger role in your issue. Condensate draining outside from the boiler out may prove to be problematic in certain situations with cold weather, and is a secondary issue.
Your boilers efficiency is derated because of altitude, and return temps of the emmiter all though return temps will not be above 130* for most of the heating season.
Gordy0 -
vent
Gordy, thanks for detailed explanation, best I've seen. Finally some help here on Heatinghelp.com
Gordon, jabbed me for nitpicking. I didn't realize 2 different guys, confused.
"So what % difference in efficiency would I get if I went straight out the wall about 18" with the vent from the top of boiler?"
Any guesses???
Also you are correct that ice will form at end of vent when it's really cold for extended periods. Previous boiler used same pipes through rimboard & I have seen large icicle run 3' clear to ground. Never really restricts vent though.0 -
Finally getting some help? Finally?
Way to be appreciative there. I don't know about the other authors of 50-ish posts to this thread (plus your other threads), but I sure feel motivated to chime in with advice now...0 -
You do know
That you have to derate the boiler for altitude Correct? At 8500' You derate 2% for every 1000' above sea level with the TT solo. So in your case 15% off of the rated input So with the Solo 60 that bumps you down from 60000 Btu input to 51000 Btu input, or 45900 output I hope your heat loss is in that range. Those derating adjustments are made automatically with the solo 60, Still need the combustion testing though.
Efficiency loss by horizontal venting verses downward could be anybodies guess. Condensing usually picks up a couple of percentage points though. I do not know if the efficiency rating of the solo is counting low supply temp operation, or if that is built in to its advertised efficiency rating. Some boiler manufacturers will advertise an efficiency rating with a note that says something like up to X efficiency in low temp operation, above and beyond the advertised rating.
Let us know what Tech support has to say please!
Gordy0 -
I kept thinking of the downward vent
So I did a calculation to see how much equivalent feet of PVC pipe the fluid bouyancy equals. As near as I can tell it's about 100ft which I believe puts you out of spec there.
If it were my home, I'd square away the venting first. Remember, this is a combustion device designed to operate within fairly narrow range. Exasperating the problem is the high altitude.
Second, I'd select a good heating contractor to do the service. I install my own gear but have a heating contracor do the service for the simple reason that I want a backup in case it's not convienient for me to deal with a malfunctioning system. Imagine being out of town for a week and the heating goes out and you don't have a go to guy to fix your shiz and keep your house warm and wife happy (with the heat).
The first thing I'd do is hire the selected heating contractor to come and do a sanity check on my system. A second set of eyes never hurt anything. Consider the fee not unlike insurance.
Lastly, creating a homemade device to overide a safety system on a combustion system scares the crap out of me.
Sorry, but I just don't know of any other way to put this: You're compounding volatility with lunacy...There was an error rendering this rich post.
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vent
JohnHenry, that's an interesting idea.
Remember though that my problem is firing off, no hot gasses are present.
Once it fires all combustion #'s are in spec.
Gordy, I have repeatedly clocked heat rise in 80 gal. DHW tank. It works out to 36MBH on 1.2 hr. burn bringing tank from 70* up to 150*. This is plenty for my home.
TT tech support Chris Turnbull called me. He agreed with all here that vent pipe should pitch downhill toward boiler. BUT, WILL NOT have any effect on efficiency. Icing is a concern.
BTW, This is NOT in the TT Venting Supplement manual that came with boiler.
TT is well aware that they have a problem. I'm not alone on this.
He had me make some programming changes in the MCBA, this didn't work & I was without heat Tue. night. Wed. he had me change code back & it fired right up.
I'm back where I was waiting for TT to call back. I think they have some engineering to do.0 -
TT venting instructions
I agree they are a little less explicit than most boiler manufactures in their instructions, But it is just industry practice anyway.
Gordy0 -
James,
By "all combustion #'s are in spec" do you mean the exhaust gas chemical composition? Of course they are, it's lit.
You're running at least twice the allowable equivalent feet of vent piping, how is that not a "must correct before I try anything else"? A poster above stated that he'd seen this problem with a partially blocked vent pipe. To the combustion chamber, the downward flow looks exactly like a partial blockage. There will be some resistance to flow before start up from heat due to the difference in temperature from the boiler room to the outside. Further, before start-up, that temperature difference between the outside and your boiler room is probably causing a back draft in your vent. I would imagine that these units have some sort of sensor to detect a back draft or way to avoid a dangerous condition in the burner assembly. It could very well be shutting itself down because of the back draft.
The error you get simply means it didn't light off before a set number of tries. It doesn't say what caused it not to light off. I'd certainly like to see more diagnostics on these units, like cars have these days. A standardized interface where you can see in real time what the "brain" of the boiler is thinking.
But when you don't have diagnostics that granular, you have to sort of hunt and peck. And when you're hunting and pecking, making sure the environment your unit is running in is in line with the manufacturers specifications is even more important.
You say the previous boiler worked fine with this set up. If that's the case, I'd be pretty sure that it wasn't near as sensitive to it's environment and install set-up as these modern mod/cons are. What was your previous boiler?
I'd venture to guess there's a good chance you're the only person in the world who has this boiler set up with a downdraft exhaust above 4,000 ft elevation.
The engineers who designed this unit designed it for a short, low, low, low resistance updraft exhaust. I've been around combustion systems for 30 years and I've NEVER, EVER, EVER seen an exhaust in an atmospheric combustion process go downward. For many good reasons, it's just not done.
Please, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and tidy up your venting. I know it's going to be a PITA, but I do truly believe it will be well worth it and could very well solve your problem.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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#
JohnHenry, your comment:
By "all combustion #'s are in spec" do you mean the exhaust gas chemical composition? Of course they are, it's lit.
You are showing your lack of knowlwdge, therefore I doubt your calculation that there is too much backpressure on vent pipe.
Current combustion analyzer results on High Fire
CO2=11.1, O2=4.0, X-air=23.6, CO=86ppm0 -
Good luck to you.
I just hope you don't have any dependents...There was an error rendering this rich post.
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My turn to chime in.
Lets put efficiency by the side, condensate by the side, and installation instructions by the side! You are trying to pull cold dense air up a pipe and push warm moist air down a pipe. That creates resistance to flow for the fan. These are not high static fans. They are designed with some margin for error but not the kind you are putting against it. Lochinvar WHN, Triangle, Weil Mclain, Burnham, Trinity, all would condemn this sort of installation as they just are not built for this application. Sure, there is a chance in hell of making it work but all odds are against you. Improper venting, propane, high altitude. You need to revent the damn thing and at least give the machine a chance. I have installed numerous Lochinvar WHNs and way more Triangles Prestiges and never run into this kind of problem. There have been minor issues on a mfr problem of control boards etc but this one is not that. You gotta change your vent, Period.0 -
Add on to post
I also will say that you will for sure have a problem with any of the condensing boilers if you decide to change out your boiler, if you dont change your vent. Enough, off to the Rant room.0 -
Not to mention...
...that the exhaust and the intake have to turn 180 degrees out of the boiler in order to go down, and I'll bet he's got those ells right next to each other, and they're probably short sweep.0 -
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But
You replaced the board with the one with the (green dot) with no success correct?
"updatesThe new control board with green DOT will not light off, tried 50 times. WTFO
Put original control board back in, & replaced both LP regulators, seems to light off better, usually takes several tries. Set to 11.5" WC
Hasn't failed 5 times in a row yet to give a E02 hard error, but has come close.
I think it has to do with my high altitude & LP."
Gordy0 -
What a surprise
As Gordy points out, it's no surprise since it's old news - even to you.
What is not a surprise to me, personally, is that you still seem to be looking for a way to avoid looking into anything that YOU might have done to cause or aggravate this problem. Perhaps I'm judging you too harshly, but are you really better off living with an unreliable heating system than taking the advice of multiple people here and correcting something you might have unknowingly flubbed up? And, if so, what ARE you still doing here? I mean this non-confrontationally, just wondering about your motivation.
Unless, of course, you've gone and done something about your venting, in which case, we'd love to hear about what you did and the results.0
This discussion has been closed.
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