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new TT Solo 60 propane, yellow flame?

I bought & installed a new Triangle Tube Solo propane 60. ALTITUDE 8,500'



Everything is perfect, EXCEPT: yellow flame (too rich) on high fire or low fire.



With water manometer, I have adjusted my propane regulator to 6" with

other appliances on (6.5" off).

This Adjustment makes no difference (5->13") on yellow flame problem.



I have also adjusted the brass gas screw up & down, no help.



Can the blower speed be increased?

If not, I think I need to put in a smaller gas orfice?



Thanks BBP
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Comments

  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    I don't mean to use scare tactics, but you are working on a bomb...

    Especially with LP.



    If you do not have the proper test instrumentation and the knowledge and skills required, you should not be working on this appliance. Turn it off and call in a qualified professional.



    If you've never experienced a catastrophic fire side explosion from improper air/fuel adjustments, let me tell you that it is NOT AN EXPERIENCE you want to have...



    These appliances MUST be adjusted with a combustion analyzer, not the human eye.



    Respectfully,



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • GordanGordan Member Posts: 891
    edited June 2011
    Let me second Mark's warning.

    As someone who has a TT Solo 60 running on LP, properly tuned with a combustion analyzer, I can tell you that there was NO visible difference in the color of the flame between the initial firing and the final, optimized combustion. There was a big difference in everything else, including CO levels. About the only thing that view port is good for is verifying that you've got spark.



    Get someone with the proper tool and knowledge for the job - and I say this as someone who's a huge fan of doing things yourself (after properly educating yourself, of course.)
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    edited June 2011
    more

    Mark, did you get my private message?



    Gordan, did you get my private message?



    TT Tech Support Chris Turnbull & I exchanged Emails prior to my purchase regarding my 8,500' altitude & quiet operation concern.



    He said: It was a quiet unit (it is) & that output would be derated (not a problem as I insulated my house really well, R65 ceilings & R35 walls). He never indicated that it would burn rich.



    Today, it won't fire-up, gives hard lockout error E02 "failed ignition

    after 5 attempts"

    I guess that the poor flame quality has effected the spark igniter.



    Doesn't it NEED a blue flame to be close to where a combustion analizer can dial it in?



    Thanks BBP
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    edited June 2011
    more

    BTW, I just did a contractor search here & no hits within 250 miles of my 81091 zip (max allowed)



    How do I recieve messages here?
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    Message received...

    Try Mountain Shadows Mechanical in Colo. Springs.



    It sounds as if you've gotten the device so far out of adjustment that recovery is futile without an analyzer.



    The real problem is that if you are on the lean side of the combustion curve, there is a real possibility of having a concusive explosion on the fire side that can destroy your equipment... I've had that experience once, and lived to tell about it, but am EXTREMELY lucky to be here, and I had and was using a combustion analyzer.



    This is NOT a conventional appliance that can be adjusted by eye. In fact, even if it were your grandpa's boiler, it STILL should not be adjusted by eye.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • meplumbermeplumber Member Posts: 678
    I don't work at that altitude, but...

    6" of pressure is ridculously low.



    Do as suggested and get some help.
  • GordanGordan Member Posts: 891
    edited June 2011
    I'm at 250 ft elevation, if that.

    The only time I encountered the E02 was when, the night before the contractor came out to tune the combustion, I plugged the intake and exhaust with crumpled paper to stop drafts - it was a cold night - and somehow failed to remove all of it in the morning. Suffering from a caffeine deficiency, I guess. The ignitor can be removed very easily; you can clean it with some fine emery cloth and make sure that the gaps are to spec.



    I can't really seem to get a good direct view of the flame through that little window. It glows orange, though - and that's well-tuned as well as poorly tuned. Other than reiterating the need for correct tools to dial in the combustion, I'm not sure how else I can help.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    yellow flame updates

    TT spec is 5-13" W.C.

    I bought a new UEI C50 combustion tester.

    I modified the gas jet from .120" to .107" diameter. This is a 20% reduction in area.

    High fire O2 is now 3.5% (spec is 2.7-4.7%)

    High fire CO2 is now 11.4% (spec is 10.7-12.0%)

    So it is right in the middle on both.

    Flame is still YELLOW, no blue seen?

    BBP
  • SlimpickinsSlimpickins Member Posts: 314
    CO?

    What's your CO?
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    Give us ALL of the numbers Bill...

    O2 is important, but without all of the other numbers, its just another number.



    Need O2, Excess air, Co2, stack temperature, CO, and Air Free CO (if available).



    Remember this isn't your pappys burner, and looking at its color really doesn't count.



    Even with a conventionally aspirated burner, if you clap your hands anywhere near the burner, the flame will look yellow. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but was (probably is still used) by less than scrupulous people to sell new equipment.



    Show us the rest of your numbers.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Follow-up info

    CO is not available on this low cost tester.

    T-Flue = 111*

    Eff = N C101.8

    X-Air = 20.1

    Loss = 0.9



    TT manual says flame should be blue.

    A blue flame is much hotter than a yellow.



    Thanks BBP
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    Something doesn't look right...

    and unfortunately, we'd need to see the CO factors in order to completely diagnose it. Stack temperature indicates under fire, but the excess air doesn't confirm it.



    You could try turning the gas pressure higher, and see what effect that has. LP, in general, doesn't burn nearly as clean as N.G. does, so some yellowing can be expected.



    Environmental dust (take your pick) will also cause the burner to burn yellowy. I've seen corn pollen completely plug the flue gas passage ways of numerous boilers.



    Try boosting the gas some, and see if the flame cleans up, then retest.



    Also, what conditions were you subjecting the boiler took these readings? What what the exiting water temperature? What was the entering air temperature?





    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MIke_JonasMIke_Jonas Member Posts: 209
    Something else doesn't look right.....

    You "modified" the gas jet??????



    Please elaborate.
  • Rich DavisRich Davis Member Posts: 87
    Just Checking

     Most of the TT boilers are shipped with NG orifices as they are checked at the factory in NJ on NG.  They are shipped with a LP orifice to be changed on site, I'm just checking that you did that.  Sometimes even the largest things are over looked.  
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    Well.....

    He is obviously reading the I&O manual, so one has to assume... I too find it interesting that he is pulling, filling and drilling orifi. I'm thinking maybe he doesn't understand that this is a negative pressure induction gas valve, and the old methodology use for atmospheric aspirated burners are not applicable.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    edited September 2011
    follow-up info

    Hello, had family down over Labor Day, so I was busy with them.



    Was having trouble with failing to light off, E02 errors

    I drilled jet back to .120" which is correct factory size for LP

    Set LP regulator to 11" WC



    I MAY NOT have a yellow flame,

    With a small mirror over view port I can't really see the flame, possibly a faint clear blue with flickers of yellow that come & go.

    I see the burner brightly glowing gold/yellow, which I thought before was a yellow flame.



    I had to turn the gas throttle screw as bunch CW, lights off now, usually with a small puff sound.



    Combustion test done toward end of DHW call, I believe Boiler was modulating flame, but unsure as T-supply was about 175* (My parameters were set for a max. of 170* ?)

    T-return was 160*

    front cover was off & air temp was warm in the little boiler room possibly 95* ?



    CO2 = 11.5

    O2 = 3.4

    Tnet = 74*

    Tflue = 155*

    Eff N C = 98.4% (note: this was over 100% with smaller .107" jet)

    X-air = 20.1

    Loss = 1.5



    Does anything need to be done?



    Thanks BBP
  • SlimpickinsSlimpickins Member Posts: 314
    anything need to be done?

    Yes, call in a professional that is well versed in Prestige boilers and make sure he brings a factory LP orifice and combustion analyzer. You have the throttle screw of the gas valve so out of whack you're out of the stoichiometric ratio. You need to manually set the control to hi and lo fire to properly check at both ends. Also your flue temp should be higher than your water temp but no more than 54 degree's. You will never see 98% efficiency at 170 water temp. In addition is most important to know what your CO is and it should be under 100 ppm. Try to take back the analyzer you just brought and use the refund for a profession such as the one ME recommended. If they can't help you I would also recommend Absolute Comfort in the Colorado Springs area.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Slimpickins response

    Of course, the actual Effiency is not that high, I was reporting what the UEI C50 tester display showed.



    The tester Flue Temp matches what the TT display shows.



    If I have the Throttle screw so far out of whack, why can I set the CO2 & O2 right in the middle of the TT specs?



    The only actual help that I have recieved here on heatinghelp.com has come from Mark Eatherton.



    Site S/B renamed to "Hire A Professional Here" as that seems to be its self-serving purpose.



    BBP
  • SlimpickinsSlimpickins Member Posts: 314
    Still need CO numbers

    You need to know the CO numbers to know your combustion is set correctly. The CO2 and O2 could line up but your CO could be way off because you're not in the stoichiometric curve. That's why TT puts the CO2, O2, and CO readings in their literature. They also put this in their literature as well:



     The combustion levels should be measured

    at high firing rate, refer to page 45

    of the PRESTIGE Solo control section

    on how to set the firing rate. If the combustion

    levels are not within the range

    given in Table 2 for the firing rate, shut

    the boiler down and contact Triangle

    Tube Engineering Department. Failure

    to comply with this requirement could

    result in severe personal injury, death or

    substantial property damage.



    Not saying you can't do it yourself without proper training..
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    CO

    Thanks for the advice.



    I now have a CO detector on order.



    Does CO track with either CO2 or O2 in any way?



    If I adjust for minimum CO, will that take me out of spec on CO2 or O2?



    I think CO would be important in a crowded city, but I live on 41 Acres in the mountains.



    Thanks BBP
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,582
    Stoichiometric Relationship...

    The attached curve shows the approximate relationship for the constituents of flue gasses and the production of CO.



    In order for everything to work in unison, all parameters should fall into these categories, but not always. One thing gets out of whack (i.e. flame impingement on a cold surface) and even though everything is set up "ideal" the production of CO will be present.



    The key is to get everything back to as near as normal as possible. Although you might not realize it, the production of CO can contribute to the early failure of the equipment, and wasted fuel. With sealed combustion, the possibility of getting CO poisoning are slim to none, but it has and will continue to happen in rare cases. It goes more to proper equipment operation, thereby increasing efficiency, and lessening the possibility of short term equipment failure.



    Here is the combustion curve showing the relationship between the different gas elements in flue gas.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    edited September 2011
    E02 again

    Thanks for the chart ME



    Looks like setting CO2 just to the lean side of maximum is in the right area.



    I think that is about where it's at.



    Today, it failed to fire-up, gave hard lockout error E02 "failed ignition

    after 5 attempts"



    If this boiler won't work properly at my altitude then TT tech should have admitted this prior to my purchase. If TT offered a high altitude control module (like the Knight) I would buy it.



    For my new house build, I'm liking the Knight Lochinvar WHN085 HIGH ALTITUDE

    I requested a quote.



    From I&OM



    6. High altitude Knight wall mount boilers are equipped to operate from 3,000 to 12,000 feet only with no field adjustments. The boiler will de-rate by 2% for each 1,000 feet above 3,000 feet. High altitude models are manufactured with a different control module for altitude operation, but the operation given in this manual remains the same as the standard boilers. A high altitude label (as shown in FIG. A) is also affixed to the unit.



    Thanks, BBP
  • SlimpickinsSlimpickins Member Posts: 314
    FYI

    When the WHN manual says no field adjustment, it means it came equipped with the correct orifice and high altitude controller. I'm not even sure if its even available in the US at this time. Anyway, you still need  to check and set up combustion on start up with the proper combustion analyzer on the commissioning of the boiler.  The only boiler that can run straight out of the box as far as I know are Viessmann's with the Lambda Pro combustion management system.



    The TT Prestige and Lochinvar Knights, both great boilers properly installed of course.



    As far as your boiler not firing, I would consider ME and my advice and get a professional that is well versed in TT boilers. Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to help.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    edited September 2011
    testing

    To verify where it's at relative to stoich (Hot-rod vernacular)



    on DHW high fire (supply = 174* return = 154*)

    turned throttle screw CW 1/2 turn (leaner)



    CO2 went from 11.4 -> 10.9

    O2 went from 3.5 -> 4.3

    Exactly matches the graph



    X-air jumped up from 20 -> 25.9



    Also calculated units BTU/hr to be about 36.5K

    It raised 80 gal tank (664#) 26*F in 28.5 min



    BBP
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    CO results

    CO was 135 ppm, spec is 100 max.

    Turned jet throttle screw 1/4 turn CW (leaner), CO now 86 ppm

    CO2 = 11.1

    O2 = 4.0

    Tnet = 52*

    TF = 131*

    N C Eff = 98.9

    X-Air = 23.6

    Loss = 1.2



    All are now in spec.



    Still getting many E02 hard errors (fails to fire off).



    Next, I'm replacing LP regulators, fingers crossed.



    Am contemplating wiring up a Dayton time delay relay that I have to the boilers reset switch, so it will get a reset say every 30 minutes & retry.



    Getting nervous about heat with Winter coming.



    BBP
  • NH03865NH03865 Member Posts: 38
    Same Problem

    I had a new TT60 installed and have the same problem.  We have been trying to resolve it for over a month now.  Combustion is perfect and the unit runs great when it starts.  The latest thing that the factory found is that the control board installed is an old board that they had some problems with.  The new control boards should have a green dot sticker on the board.  We will be installing the new board Thursday.  Will let you know next week how things went.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Control board

    THANK YOU, NH03865, very interesting info. Please let me know your results.



    My Honeywell MCBA54201DV10 Rev 5, has no green dot



    My last contact with TT, Tech was tryig to blame my LP, which I don't trust either.



    BBP
  • lchmblchmb Member Posts: 2,495
    always

    It's alway's easy to blame the propane. I hear that 50 times a year. Did you get your flow and lock up done with a water manometer and is the line sized properly?
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    control board

    I contacted Chris Turnbull at TT Tech Support.

    They are sending out a new control board, sure hope it fixes me up.

    They don't offer a high altitude version, another Tech snickered when I said that Knight does.

    They knew the symptoms well, little backfires, E02.

    I think that were not the only customers with this problem.

    BBP
  • NH03865NH03865 Member Posts: 38
    The results

    My heating guy replaced the control board Thursday night, now the boiler doesn't start at all.  He brought another new control board Saturday morning. The unit still does not start.

    At this point it was time for a sanity check.  Boilers are fairly simple devices and what they do is pretty basic. They make fire to heat water and move that water around.  To make fire you need an ignition source, oxygen and fuel. I said it was time to go back and verify everything we could.  Started with the ignitor, pulled it out, inspected it (everything looked good) tested it (made lots of sparks during ignition cycle). Blower was moving lots of air through the chamber but verified there was no obstruction/restriction in exhaust vent. That covered ignition source and oxygen.  Measured the voltage from the control board to the coil of the gas valve.  Voltage was fine and valve was pulling in. That says that the control board is happy and is trying to put gas into the chamber.  When looking through the window, there is no flame established during the start cycle.

    Things that have been previously verified.  Gas pressure started at 8.8" WC, was adjusted to 12.5" WC and is steady during the ignition sequence and operation (when it actually started). Combustion numbers for everything were mid-range according to the manual.

    At this point, since there is an ignition source and lots of air, it looks to be a fuel problem.  Next thing is to change out the gas valve (it's about the only possibility left).  Will let you know how it goes



    Fortunately for me this boiler is located in a new house that we are building to be our summer/retirement home so if it takes a while to solve the issue, it's not a problem, but it is frustrating.
  • NH03865NH03865 Member Posts: 38
    The results

    My heating guy replaced the control board Thursday night, now the boiler doesn't start at all.  He brought another new control board Saturday morning. The unit still does not start.

    At this point it was time for a sanity check.  Boilers are fairly simple devices and what they do is pretty basic. They make fire to heat water and move that water around.  To make fire you need an ignition source, oxygen and fuel. I said it was time to go back and verify everything we could.  Started with the ignitor, pulled it out, inspected it (everything looked good) tested it (made lots of sparks during ignition cycle). Blower was moving lots of air through the chamber but verified there was no obstruction/restriction in exhaust vent. That covered ignition source and oxygen.  Measured the voltage from the control board to the coil of the gas valve.  Voltage was fine and valve was pulling in. That says that the control board is happy and is trying to put gas into the chamber.  When looking through the window, there is no flame established during the start cycle.

    Things that have been previously verified.  Gas pressure started at 8.8" WC, was adjusted to 12.5" WC and is steady during the ignition sequence and operation (when it actually started). Combustion numbers for everything were mid-range according to the manual.

    At this point, since there is an ignition source and lots of air, it looks to be a fuel problem.  Next thing is to change out the gas valve (it's about the only possibility left).  Will let you know how it goes



    Fortunately for me this boiler is located in a new house that we are building to be our summer/retirement home so if it takes a while to solve the issue, it's not a problem, but it is frustrating.
  • MrDucksMrDucks Member Posts: 27
    edited October 2011
    Flame Signal

    ?What is your flame signal DCUa reading at low/high fire, When it was working (Check Your Grounds) Good Spark
  • NH03865NH03865 Member Posts: 38
    Did it work

    Did the replacement of the control board work for you?
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    updates

    The new control board with green DOT will not light off, tried 50 times. WTFO



    Put original control board back in, & replaced both LP regulators, seems to light off better, usually takes several tries. Set to 11.5" WC



    Hasn't failed 5 times in a row yet to give a E02 hard error, but has come close.



    I think it has to do with my high altitude & LP.



    Am going to use a Time Delay Relay to reset unit every hour or so, as I can't trust unit to work while I'm gone for an extended trip when it's below freezing.



    Have started designing my next install using cast Iron 85% Eff boiler.



    96% Eff High tek SS modCon sounds great, but it actually needs to WORK!
  • Tim PotterTim Potter Member Posts: 212
    WOW, still having problems

    I hope you, your installer & Triangle Tube stay on this until its solved. I've seen several TT's installed in big houses up in Winter Park, (9000') so I'd say right off the bat that high altitude is not your only problem. I'm in auto Repair, and occasionally we get one that just defies logic, and when you have finally found the problem, you still think its a mystery. But you have to stay at it to solve it. I feel for you man. My recent problems with the aqua-stat while not as dangerous as your boiler attempting to blow its self up occasionally, were just as frustrating to solve. eventually identified a cold solder joint.



    Hang in there:



    Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Lenexa, KS
  • NH03865NH03865 Member Posts: 38
    Appears to be fixed

    After fighting the E02 fault for months it appears to finally be fixed. My heating contractor was consulting the factory during the whole process.  At the direction of the factory, he changed the ignitor once, the gas valve twice and the control board twice and it still didn't run.  The factory then sent a technicial who was very familiar with these systems to fix it.  The first visit he took everything apart and checked it and adjusted it so it was actually running so rich it was outside of factory specs.  He said that the combustion numbers in the manual were for laboratory conditions and were sometimes not achievable in the field. But everything would then work fine. I wasn't happy with this explaination and fully believed that the problem wasn't fixed.  30 minutes after the technicial left, I heard the clunk of relays as the boiler errored out with an E02 again. 

    After consulting with the factory, the technician returned the next day with the ephinany that it must be the gas valve.  There is an adjustment on the gas valve that is sealed and should not be touched and the seal on this gas valve had been broken.  This was already the 3rd gas valve in the system and I didn't believe that the gas valve was the issue.  He replaced it with the 4th valve and the boiler still didn't work.  He then started further troubleshooting and I asked a question why was the boiler turning on the circulator for heat when there was a call for DHW not heat.  He then found that the control board was operating the wrong circulator at the wrong time and the control board no longer recognized the sensor in the indirect tank.  After troubleshooting all the wiring and finding all the wiring correct he replaced the control board for the 3rd time.  He had the complete repair kit for the Triangle Tube boilers and took the gas valve and control board from that kit.  He has had the kit for several years so the control board was an older revision than the boards that had been previously used.  Everything started to work properly.  The combustion was adjusted to be right in the middle of the specified ranges.  The boiler has been operating for a week now with no problems. 

    Cautiously Optimistic
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Still E02

    Still gets E02 about every 20-30 tries.

    This is 5 fails to light off in a row = E02 hard error.

    My TT sensor on DHW tank works perfectly.

    The replacement control board that they sent me wouldn't fire off once!!!!

    Seems they are sending out KRAP control boards + after I had it for a week I got a letter saying that they were going to charge me $510

    Don't know yet if they did? I sent the "green dot" KRAP control board back to them.

    What Help, NOT!!!!

    I wish I had never bought this POS

    I think I will pull it all out next spring & put in something that will work.

    BBP
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Follow-up info

    I hope that someone at TT scans this board & will notice this.



    I know many prospective buyers do!



    Seems that they have some engineering to do.

    (BTW, I'm a retired hardware & software engineer)



    If they came up with a HIGH ALTITUDE + LP control board, I sure would buy one, rather than go to all the trouble of replacing this unit.



    BBP
  • SlimpickinsSlimpickins Member Posts: 314
    you get what you pay for

    You may well be a retired hardware/software engineer but you're not a trained and qualified Triangle Tube Prestige boiler installer. You took the gamble trying to save money by installing it yourself without training and without proper tools like a combustion analyzer and you've lost the bet. Now you're crying sour grapes and Triangle Tube doesn't owe you anything. It clearly states in the installation manual: Installation and service must be performed by a qualified installer, service agency or the gas supplier.

    Bite the bullet and get a qualified service tech and they'll solve the problem. It's not exactly rocket surgery.
  • james patrickjames patrick Member Posts: 70
    Slimpickins, thanks for the heating help

    Combustion numbers are posted above.



    TT said Solo 60 would work just fine at this altitude before I bought it, IT DON'T



    BBP
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