Hydronic heating system - how long will the pipes last?

sbmfj

Hi guys,



I have to update my heating system, as the boilers, oil tanks are getting old. Im located in Montreal, Quebec where hydro electricity is very affordable. So Ill be going electric.



Anyhow, here is my question. What is the expected life expectancy of the "flow and return" pipes for the system? See below for a picture of my furnace. My home was built in the 1920's, and Im pretty sure this is the original system. Im worried that some of the pipes may be geting old, and perhaps could rot through? I have ordered Dan's book, and read the entire section on Hydronic gravity systems. Im pretty sure my system is 'closed' and uses a compression tank (not expansion), as I dont recall seeing an "exit pipe" on my roof. the book did talk about corrosion of the pipes, but it seemed to suggest that that will just build up debris in the pipes and slow down the flow or pressure.



So, should I be worried about these pipes slowly leaking? Plan b is to rip out the entire system, and install baseboard heaters. I realize that if I install electirc boilers with circulator pumps, ill have to upgrade my electric panels for both units( its a duplex, I live in the ground floor unit). Should I alos be worried about the life expectancy of the cast iron radiators? Last thing I wanna do is upgrade the furances, and then have to deal with upgrading pipes and radiators.



Also, how 'trouble free' will a new electric boiler be? Ill be getting married in the fall, and the family will be getting larger over time, and ill eventually have to move out, and both units in the duplex will be rentals. I definitely want a very user friendly system, that will be cheap to maintain (upkeep etc..not the electricity portion or bill - tenant pay for their own heat). Also, as mentioned, Im worried about the pipes corroding over time, which could in turn lead to water damage, and more headaches...



As I mentioned, Plan B, was to rip it all out, and install baseborad heaters. Here, I have removed all variables, as there are no boilers, circulator pumps, or cast iron rad's and pipes to deal with.



Im pretty sure the cost for either project will be quite similar, as regardless or boiler or baseboards, Ill have to upgrade my electric panels. Only difference is if I go with plan b (baseboards) ill have to rip out the old system, and incurr the costs for that work (will do lots myself with my plumbing buddy)



Sorry for the long rant. I appreciate any help or feedback that you may have.



Here's a pic of my boiler. Any idea what year its from?



<img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/sbmfj/001-2.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="" />



Cast iron rad's...



<img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/sbmfj/furnace003.jpg" width="600" height="800" alt="" />

jp_2

Isn't that a gas meter in the upper pic?

why not a gas boiler?

sbmfj

gas was for previous owners gas stove.

old owner used to have a gas stove. I want electric. Electric is dirt cheap in Montreal. Easier to rent, as only one utility bill.



Any ideas on the pipes life expectancy?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Original

That looks like the original boiler-piping-radiators.  The boiler was originally fired by coal.  Ninety-one years old - I'd be proud.  To answer your question, your system could last up to 20 more years, but given that you don't want any future problems, can do some of the work yourself along with a plumber friend and the energy savings you would get with a new system, I would remove everything and start over.



Baseboard may be economically feasible, but with kids and pets in the house, it will be destroyed on short order.  Borrow money from the parents and get some nice panel radiators and towel warmers.  Also, insulate the structure as much as possible for additional savings.



As far as electric boilers, I have very little experience with using them for heating.

Xray

Old Pipes? OK!

Given the fact that this is a closed system (even a bladder tank, God bless!), and is also probably almost exclusively iron, I'll bet the integrity of the system is better than you're giving it credit for--unless there is evidence of long-standing leaking which would give our arch-enemy, Air, opportunity to invade your system.  If you were to drain it and slice a pipe, you would find it to be delightfully rust free.  How cool is that?  Cast-iron radiators will give you wonderful heat.  I hate to see you rip all that good stuff out and replace it with a system of lesser comfort or spend a small fortune on components which would merely mimic the groovy stuff you've already got. To be sure, the panels are flatter and less obtrusive.  Finally, the electric boiler would give you the opportunity to utilize outdoor temperature reset which would give you consistant & even heat, even on those days when you re not freezing your buttocks off in the Great White North!

Ironman

Heat Loss Calc?

Have you done an accurate heat loss calculation? If so, what's the btu requirement at design temp? If you don't know this, then you won't know what size boiler to put in and you won't know the size of electric service required.



A 40 or 50 kw boiler is gonna require a 300 amp service with the rest of your house's load. Can your power co. supply this? You may need 400amps depending on the boiler size + your house load. Know what you're gonna need before you make any decision.

D107

electric costs

I'd like to know what your actual electric rates are now per kilowatt plus any other delivery, tax or other charges. And if they're scheduled to go up soon. Have to compare apples to apples. Then, as others have said, figure your heat and domestic hot water loss, electric usage for that loss, new system cost, etc. 

Jamie Hall

Your're probably

good to go for a long time yet.  I recently had the chance to go over my son's place (Notre Dame de Grace district, just off Sherbrooke, near the Vendome metro station) and he has a system very like yours, only gas fired.  Both the pipes and the radiators appear from the outside, and to a hammer tap test, to be completely sound.



I agree that electric is the way to go where you are.  There's a lot less to worry about, the price is right, it's dead simple and almost tenant proof.



I also completely agree with SLO-115 (except that I can't write French -- only read it!), as the electric service in my son's place would have to be extensively upgraded (for that matter, it should be anyway -- but he's the tenant, not the landlord, so... ) so I might expect yours to need some help, too.

VictoriaEnergy

Keep your options open

Electricity may be your least costly energy source today. but for how long?



There are huge issues simmering away with the whole North American electrical supply.



The ongoing problems they are having with the nuclear accidents in Japan have serious ramifications closer to home.  There are several US and Canadian nuclear installations that are nearing the end of their design certified life.  (Fukushima unit 1 was scheduled for shut down this year and was running on a 10 year extension)  The industry has been quietly applying to regulators for permit extensions.  I'm not so sure the public will have the appetite for this.  Several utilities have plans on meeting pending demand with nuclear, with newly invigorated opposition, these plans are at least going to be delayed. maybe by a decade.



Another issue is smart metering.  With smart meter technology many electric utilities are introducing; you will be billed at a higher rate for power consumed at peak demand times.



If you remove the rads and put in baseboard electric, you are effectively tying yourself to the electric utility since the future cost to go back to some form of fueled central heat will be very costly.



Radiators are generally regarded as a superior and more comfortable heating system, and to many people, add value to your home.  Opinions towards BB electric vary from, at best, neutral to a significant detriment to the value of your house.



So I'd say go electric, but absolutely keep the hot water heating.

Robert_25

Hydro Quebec = Cheap power

I live about 45 minutes South of Montreal, and I know how painful your fuel bills must be.  There are plenty of old houses in my area with electric boilers installed, and the owners love the quiet steady heat of the electric boilers with cast iron radiation.  The black iron pipes will probably outlast you, I would leave them in place and spec. out an electric boiler.

sbmfj

you guys are the best

Thanks. Im thinking of simply keeping the rad's and have the electric boiler instaslled. Jamie, your son and I are probably neighbors, im in NDG as well, 10 minute walk for Vendome. Have you been to Chalet BBQ on Sherbrooke off Adington? If not, take your son there next visit. Best rotisserie chicken EVER!!!



I have met with a few electriciens, and am currently getting quotes to update both service panels to 200amps (should be sufficeint for the boilers)



Here are 2 other questions that hopefully you can help me out with.



In order to determine my BTU needs, or the KWH amp needed from the boiler, how do I go about this? Heat loss calculator?



Whats the average life of one of these electric boilers? Is there an actual tank in the boiler? Any good websites that you may know of that explain how they work?



Ill keep updating this thread as I go along. Hopefully this could help out other members.