Lot's of fire, not a lot of heat

CharlesW

Okay, so here is my situation in a nutshell:  I have a house that was built in 1880, it has been through many iterations of heating types and the last iteration (which was in use until 3 nights ago) is a baseboard heating system running off of a Slant/Fin 100 Series Boiler (100-A-60) Liquid Propane Model.  I started noticing (after I ran out of propane and got a refill) that the flame was rolling out of the front of the unit.  My wife actually noticed this Tuesday night when she smelled the smoke at around 2:00AM.  I promptly shut the system off and called someone in the morning (who will be able to make it to my place next week some time).  I did some research and only having owned the property for 2 years decided that it was time to try again.  I did this with the same result on Wednesday (did this being, just turn it on and pray really hard that it won't happen again).  Yesterday I got smart and did some more research.  Turns out that the thing has never been cleaned.  I removed all of the covers and cleaned out between the boiler core, vacuumed the bottom, cleaned the burner tubes, removed all soot from the interior and exterior of the unit, removed the vent cap, cleaned out the vent tube, checked the chimney for any blockage... Cleaned everything out to make sure that the thing was getting proper draft.  I relit the pilot light, and let it get started.  About an hour later I had the same flame rollout situation, promptly shut the thing off again, and turned it off all the way. 



So I guess my question is, after all of that, what could be the issue causing this flame rollout, what can I do to resolve it?



I'm really tight on money given the holidays so can't replace with a new boiler right now, I do have the ability though to get one of those tankless water heater jobbies.  Would this work in lieu of a boiler?



Thanks for any help.



Charles

Jamie Hall

Shouldn't need

a whole new boiler, unless something is really messed up which seems unlikely.  This is a combustion/burner issue, and there are a number of possible causes of a flame rollout (which should, incidentally, have shut off the burner on safety?)(for obvious reasons).



Not really a do-it-yourself type of thing to fix, though, unless self happens to be a trained burner person.  You do need to get someone in pronto to look at it, who is well-qualified.  I must admit that I'm a little surprised that your propane people can't come more quickly than sometime next week -- but then, I (and my predecessors at the job) have been doing business with the same oil company for 80 years now, so I guess there may be a longevity factor at work in their coming to me!.



One of the less obvious possibilities for a rollout, though, which you might check, is the draught -- not the draught in the burner itself, but in the house as a whole.  Sometimes there is not enough outside air getting into the house -- or there is something like an exhaust fan operating elsewhere in the house (or a fireplace?) that even though things are really clean the burner just can't pull enough air.

CharlesW

Jamie,

Thanks for your reply.  If installed a draft type fan to pull air up through the flue/vent system should that work?  The boiler is about 20 or 30 years old, I don't think it has a flame rollout shutoff valve.

Gordan

It is not safe to guess

You're asking people to answer potentially life-or-death questions sight unseen. This is not a situation when bubblegum and duct tape is an acceptable approach to solving your problem. You want the issue competently diagnosed and fixed, otherwise the "solution" could be worse than the problem.

CharlesW

Very True

Gordan,



You are correct, and that was an inappropriate question.  However, the second part of the question, in lieu of not being able to afford a new boiler, would a hot water heater suit the purpose for heating the baseboards?  I have enough mechanical expertise to install one in line with the system to bypass the boiler until I can get it repaired or get someone out to let me know that I need a new one, but would like my house to have some heat in the interim.



Thanks,



Charles

Gordan

Installing it in line would almost certainly be problematic.

Tankless heaters have a much bigger pressure drop than your current boiler, so you'd wind up with insufficient flow and very little heat.

CharlesW

Flow Issue

I had considered the pressure flow, and could boost that with an inline pump that could get the water running through the system.  My other thought was getting a hot water heater (not tankless) with a 40 gallon capacity, letting that heat to capacity and running it on a closed system.  If I ran it with the right pump and the right flow valves I think I could get it up to pressure, just wondering if this is a doable thing.  Obviously it can be built, just don't know if this a solution or an added problem.  I have decided that I need a backup and thought this might be a good solution.



Thanks again.

Jamie Hall

Just don't

as I said in my first post, this is not a do it yourself job.  Nor is it a get by with something for the moment job.



This problem COULD KILL YOU.



Unless you know what you are doing with burners and controls, do NOT fiddle around.  Get someone in who does know, and in the meantime heat the house some other way.

CharlesW

Uggh

Right, I understand that fiddling with the boiler is a bad idea and that death is a potential.  That's why I'm asking if I took the boiler out of the equation completely, let's pretend that it's broken beyond repair, and I have the knowledge, skill, and know how of how to install an electric circulating pump and a hot water heater (which I do), would that act as an appropriate substitute for the boiler that we are pretending is now in a landfill not working there as it wasn't working in my house.



Again, boiler gone, new heat source in place, what's the best thing to be put in place?

CharlesW

One last question

Okay, I have just one last question... If the front panel of the unit there are two front panels, top and bottom, say the bottom panel was left off of the unit, would this cause the rollout?

Jamie Hall

Probably...

the water heater might not keep you toasty, but it would be better than being really really chilly!  Go for it...



I still doubt that it is the boiler which is the problem; something about the burner or the air supply or the venting is, and these are much less expensive to fix than a whole new boiler.  Wait a bit for a really good burner guy before you truck it away!

mellow_3

gas roll out

anything can be done but what is the best to do? I do the same thing, I over think the problem and miss the solution. the gas problem could be (and sounds like) a simple one......... call a good gas man in to help. his time is cheaper than all the extra parts and time to change the system......... if the boiler holds water it can be fixed. a good gas man will tell you what is wrong with the boiler and can get your boiler running again. If not it is money well spent to know what is wrong with the boiler. If you just filled the tank with propane maybe the regulator at the tank is frozen or stuck...... it can be that simple. p.s. you can get service 24/7 but if you want some one awake I would call first thing in the morn.

croydoncorgi

Get an expert!

....as has been recommended several times already - get someone to work on it who KNOWS what they're doing.  If you found 'soot' in the combustion chamber / heat-exchanger, that indicates one serious problem.  The fact that flame roll-out occurred AFTER cleaning suggests more serious flue problems and/or ventilation issues in the building.



A flue-reversal caused by (would you believe it) installation of new double-glazing nearly killed a close neighbour here.



DON'T MESS WITH IT ANY MORE - get it properly fixed.

Ironman

Water Heater

If you currently have a flue problem (not sure), what good would it do to connect a water heater to the same chimney? You'd still have the same issue but might presume that all is OK and end up with CO poisoning. Don't take chances with gas - call a pro!

Charlie from wmass

Please call in a service person

it could be the boiler passages are plugged. If you want to buy anything buy a couple carbon monoxide detectors. The boiler maybe shot but if things are tight there are loan programs in many areas for situations such as yours. A new boiler maybe the best present you could give your family if it comes down to that.

CharlesW

Everyone can rest easy

Just so everyone can rest easy, and to answer a couple of posts...



1. The flue system is fine, that is what my HWH runs off of and I have checked the flue's and chimney and they are clean and clear (I do know how to do this part of things).



2. Got CO monitors as I realized that the CO was not a good thing for anyone in the house.



3. Have completely shut off the boiler.  Based on some more research and speaking with experts it appears that the heat exchanger/cast iron piece is cracked.  The flames roll out when it gets up to temp and based on  my experience with engines, when cast iron is cracked and heats that's when the cracks expand.  This explains the roll out as the water is likely hitting the flame tubes and just when hot water boils over on a stove and spreads flames, this seems to be what is happening.



4. For the rest easy part: I have completely shut that system off.  Unfortunately new boiler will not be in the budget this heating season, but I have a lot of extra heating items laying around that I plan on making use out of (pellet stove, wood burning stove, 2 gas fireplaces, 1 heating zone run off of the HWH).  I do have an extra boiler from when the house was converted back to a 1 family and am going to have that bad boy checked out to see if it can be put in place of the current one that is toast (only an assumption on the toast part but am going to pressure test it to verify).



I do thank everyone for their input, I thought that there might be an easy fix as it seems like this would be a common newbie problem (just moved to CT from FL 2 years ago and central air works way different than boilers and furnaces), but it is obviously just the risk in buying an old victorian house that my wife could not live without.



Thanks again, and no worries, I'm not going to touch the thing any more (other than with a sledge hammer Office Space style once it's removed).

Charlie from wmass

old Boilers and CT

stories do not always go well. I can not help but think of the guy who was trying to fix his own boiler this past summer. The other boiler may be an option. I did not check the age of your boiler but some boilers can be repaired, as in sections replaced but with out seeing it it is hard to say. I am glad you are being safe but I think we also do not want you throwing good money after bad. The tankless would be throwing good money after bad.

CharlesW

Old Boilers and CT

Funny you should mention that story, my wife brought that up the other in the context "remember what happened to so and so that worked on your floor at work and his boiler!"  That is the story that hit the news that you are speaking of.  My boiler is a Slant/Fin 100-A-60 I'm pretty sure it's early 80's.  I see that you are in MA, just wondering if you do any work in CT?  If so, I will be sure to look you up once I have the money saved up for a new boiler, I really appreciate all of the help and advice (even the stuff I didn't like to hear) from this site!

Mark Eatherton

Doesn't sound right....

Sounds like someone dropped a natural gas appliance into a propane setting without doing the required conversion, and that causes the symptoms you are seeing, and it is also a MAJOR CARBON MONOXIDE HAZARD...



DO NOT TURN IT BACK ON. Call your fuel supplier for help. They have qualified service technicians that can make the conversion to LP and get it into safe operation.



I do sincerely hope you have invested in a CO detector.



ME

icesailor

Not converted to LP

I agree Mark, for what it is worth. It sure wouldn't be the first boiler that came Nat Gas and wasn't properly converted to Propane.

Get someone who knows what they are doing. Someone is responsible for the conversion. In MA, it is the person who gets the gas permit. They are responsible for the gas piping, the venting and cannot pass of O detector from UGI to protect my ancient butt from accidents like this. I'll bet that flame is bright yellow.



Scary

icesailor

Soot:

If you had soot, the thing may have never been converted to run on propane. The regulator pressure may be too high and the burner orifice sizes are too big. There shouldn't be any soot at all. It is a symptom of something else.

In todays litigeous society, if you had called me about this problem, BECAUSE you had called me and I listened to you, I would have gone to your house, post haste to look at this situation and advised you to shut it off until it was fixed or made arrangements to have it looked at immediately. Just hearing about this gives me the shivers. Knowing that some liability could rub off on me. 

Sometimes, when a boiler soots up from lack of conversion, it can't be made right and must be replaced. Tell your LP supplier what you think you have and can they get someone over there right pronto like. I'll bet they will get someone over there.