Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

CSST bonding...

kcopp
kcopp Member Posts: 4,010
I had an inspector tell me today that when using CSST and bonding the gas line that the bonding wire needed to be stranded #6 copper.... solid #6 was not good enough.... I could not find anyting that mandated this to be true in the Tracpipe manual.

ty,kpc

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,900
    Solid Copper

    If # 6 solid copper can ground a service, why would it not be sufficient for csst? I'd politely ask the inspector to cite the code section for that.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Solid vs. stranded.

    I am not a professional and do not know the code. I point that out, because I sure do not want to mislead anyone.



    My experience with electrical work (electronics, actually) is that when removing insulation from  wires, it is relatively easy to make small nicks in the wire unless you are using a hot-wire stripper. This applies to both solid and stranded wire, though it is easier to see with solid. If these nicks are small enough, and there is no disturbance, nothing happens, at least right away. Later, they break. Now with solid wire, if it breaks,  you lose the connection. With stranded, you still have some of the conductors to protect the circuit.



    Now with 16 gauge and finer wires, this is quite important. But the larger the wire (and #6 or larger is certainly large), the less I think this would matter. The trouble is, with something like a safety ground you do not necessarily notice that the ground is open when it breaks. It is not something that is inspected every few months. If it were a power wire, you would notice because, for example, the lights would not work, but for safety, you would not know it until someone got shocked, or a gas line exploded.



    I have no idea what the code says about any of these things. Code or not, I do not really know if it matters on a wire as big as #6. But it might be what that inspector had in mind.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    CSST and code?

    When my new gas-fired boiler was installed to replace an old oil burner, the gas company had to run a gas line from the street to the house. The main in the street is plastic. The line to my house is plastic. A few feet down in the ground (perhaps 3 feet)  it is connected to a metal pipe that rises from the ground to a valve, regulator, meter, and another valve. That goes through a hole in the wall into black pipe stuff that raises it to ceiling height. None of this is explicitly grounded. At that point, it connects to yellow CSST that goes over to the ceiling just over my boiler. Then it turns to black pipe again and goes through a gas valve, and stuff down to the boiler itself.



    I wondered why they bothered to use CSST at all, since a straight length of black pipe would have done as well.



    But there is no explicit bonding anywhere. The CSST connects to the black pipe at the meter end, but there is so little metal in the ground there that I doubt it is an adequate ground for anything, especially lightning. Similarly at the other end, the only grounding is through the black pipe into the boiler.



    I do not know if one can rely on the connection between the CSST and the black iron pipe to adequately ground the CSST in these circumstances. I know one is not supposed to ground things through the hot water pipes; I can only imagine that grounding something through a gas pipe must be worse. Did the gas inspector miss this? Or does the code not require bonding of CSST everywhere? I wonder how the bonding should be done (not that I would do it myself). A large ground stake at the gas meter end and to the water pipe at the other end?
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,216
    Why Csst is bonded

    The reason for bonding CSST is that with out proper bonding if there is a lightening strike that effects the system it leaves pin holes in the gas lines. This was an issue in the Cape Cod area of my Fair State. This is why CSST was temporarily banned in Massachusetts. JDB if the piece you have is not boned look up the Manufacturers installation manual and bond it as they require. As far as solid vs. stranded check the code book. I have one town they make us put Tee handles on the ball valves for gas even though it is no where I can find in the code. They sell a lot of Tee handles in that towns F.W.Webb. They do not stock many in other branches.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Why stranded rather than solid for bonding.

    I was looking at this in the installation manual for one brand of CSST (not sure if it is what I have), and it says, in part,



    "b. Lightning induced voltages seeking

       ground are subject to impedance;

       consider utilizing a braided or strand-

       ed bonding jumper for greater surface

       area, rather than solid wire."
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Bonding requirements...

    MY piece of CSST is not bonded. The inspector passed it. I wish I knew if my local code does not require bonding (seems dumb) or if the inspector did not pay enough attention.



    One of the requiements for bonding says,



    "a. If possible, avoid running the bonding

       jumper a long distance through the

       building. The connection should be as

       short as possible. Gas meter should

       be near the electrical service if possi-

       ble. If not, the bond can be connect-

       ed at any point near the electrical ser-

       vice per Figure 4-21."



    Gas meter is about 50 feet from electrical service panel. To make matters worse, the service panel is about 20 feet  from the 3/4" copper tube where the water enters the house and is one of the grounds of the system. It is about 40 feet to the first of two ground rods that is the other ground for the system. So bonding at the near-meter end of the system is going to be a compromise in any case. I would be reluctant to have a ground stake near the gas meter for fear of hitting the plastic tubing from the street to the meter. If the stake were far enough from the house to be sure about this, it would risk getting cut or damaged by lawn mower or other near-home hazards. Also, if the grounds at each end of the CSST do not go to the same ground point, there could be a difference in potential between the two if there is a nearby lightning strike, inducing large currents through the CSST. Probably not a good idea. I guess all the bonding wires should go to the same ground point.



    At the boiler end of the CSST, the bonding wire could go to the power panel, though the bus bars there, if I remember correctly, would not take anything as big as #4 wire. There may be a few larger holes in one of the bus bars.



    Then the manual says:



    "c. Upon completion of the conventional

       yellow-jacketed TracPipe® Gas Piping

       System installation and prior to gas

       service initiation, check to see if the

       bonding has been completed."



    This was not done. Nor did the inspector notice it -- unless the code around here does not require it.



    "d. Routing of gas piping should be as low

       in the structure as reasonably possible

       for best performance."



    This could not be run low, or my car would drive over it, and people would trip over it. Hence, it was installed 8 to 10 feet above the garage floor.



    I want to be clear that I am not going to do the work that I imagine should be done. I just wonder if I should get my (new) heating contractor, and electrician, a plumber, or the gas company, to do this.



    My guess is that my risk is relatively low. The CSST goes across the garage (inside) at the level where the ceiling would be if the garage had one. There are no pipes, wires, etc., any where near it except for the PVC pipes for air intake and exhaust from the boiler, so the risk of arcing from the CSST to something else is relatively low.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    CSST Bonding

    I don't know what state you all are in but in MA where I work, the only CSST we can use is Trac-Pipe "Counter Strike" pipe. There are specific ways that it must be grounded and what started as a small problem, turned into a huge one. It was jusisdiction over the bonding. Some electrical inspectors had one idea about bonding and others had other ideas. Common sense was not a monetary value on this one. The electricians were the ones that were supposed bond the stuff and take out a permit. They wouldn't because they couldn't find a fitting to clamp around the tube with the plastic. One was grousing about it in a supply house and I whipped out my copy of what you are supposed to do, CLAMP THE FITTING, NOT THE INSULATED PIPE!!! (you idiot).

    It is sort of a power play by Trac-Pipe because they hold the patent for the high carbon jacket that will carry the lightening load. Which I doubt.

    Look at your install manual from Trac-Pipe to see what is now required. We/I had to get recertified on Counter Strike trac pipe.

    If I was home in MA, I could tell you. Maybe there is something on the Trac-Pipe Web Site or the Comm of MA, Plumbers and Gas Fitters Board Web Site.
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,010
    I am In New Hampshire.....

    I have looked at the Tracpipe and the Wardflex books and they don't specifically say stranded manditiory.....Just #6 . Trac does say to "consider it" but not HAVE to. He was "quoteing"  was Trac pipe.... Trac pipe does use NFPA70  as a referance. (i have no idea what that is...Another thing he was saying was that if a 200A panel was in there you were required to run a #4 bonding wire.                                                         Here is the big thing is that I just bought 300' of #6 solid.....OUCH!

     I don't do a ton of gas piping but I am leaning to doing more and more all black......
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    I am in New Jersey.

    I looked at TracPipe web site and I do not have CounterStrike (black) CSST. Mine looks like the regular TracPipe (Yellow), though it does not have TracPipe printed on it. It has lots of stampings. One says Fuel Gas 5 psi. One says ANSI ???-2005. One says CSA something or other. This by memory.



    I had to pay $395 for permits that is supposed to cover inspections. I wish the gas guy or the electrical guy would have noticed lack of bonding for that.



    I still wonder if I should ask my new heating contractor, an electrician (who probably does not know about gas) or a plumber (who probably does not know about electricity) to deal with this.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,900
    Grounding vs Bonding

    Grounding and bonding are not the same thing.



     Bonding: "The permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed." - NEC Article 100



    Grounding Conductor: "A conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode or electrodes." - NEC Article 100

    Though bonding helps to achieve grounding, it by definition is not the same thing. The tables for grounding and bonding are different in the NEC. Bonding means making electrically continuous. Grounding means connecting to the earth.



    "...that portion of the conductor that is the sole connection to the grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger than 6 AWG copper wire..." - NEC Article 250.66(A)  This is referring to the ground wire between the service and the rod.



    You should be able to return the remainder of your wire or sell it to an electrician who uses it all the time to ground services.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,900
    Bonding

    I would have your electrician to bond it. A standard split brass ground clamp on the csst fitting (not the tubing) plus the # 6 copper is all you need. You can choose whether you want stranded or solid.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Electrician bond it.

    Bond it where? I assume the clamps go at the fitting at each end of the CSST where the CSST connects to the black pipe. I guess I would opt for stranded wire (#6 or maybe even $4 if the fititng will take it). But then the bonding wire has to go a long way to get to the actual ground. At the gas meter end, it has to go all the way across the garage, then the width of the house, then the height of the house to get to the power panel. Then the power panel is a long way to get to the actual grounds (water pipe and two ground stakes). Makes me wonder if it will do any good with lightning near hits. It would be OK as far as a safety ground is concerned, but for a fast transient, such as a lightning strike, I fear the impedance of the ground wire would be too much. I wonder if a new grounding system for just the CSST would be better. One near one end of the CSST. But it would be far from the grounds of the rest of the system, and that would induce common-mode problems from the point of view of lightning. I wish I thought the electricians around here knew about such things. They would follow the codes as they understand them, but I have my doubts if they understood the principles involved. If the inspector for my job did not even check if the CSST was bonded or not, I wonder how much CSST gets installed around here. And if any of it is bonded.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,900
    edited November 2010
    JDB

    CSST bonding is something that alot of jurisdictions have recently began inforcing in the last 2-3 years. Yours was probably installed  before they started requiring bonding



    You only need to bond the csst at one place. As to whether you need to go all the way back to the  service, that is a judgement determined by the AHJ.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    OK

    The CSST was installed in May, 2009 in New Jersey. The inspector found nothing wrong with the unbonded CSST. My guess is that my new heating contractor (not the one that installed the boiler and the CSST) would be better informed than the electricians or plumbers around here.



    I used to do electronic engineering, and in my case, I am not even sure if bonding would make the CSST less likely to receive a lightning discharge.  There are no electrical conductors near the CSST except for the iron pipe at each end. Bonding might actually make the CSST more likely to receive a discharge. But I did not specialize in lightning protection and am not competent to decide something like this. My new contractor has licensed electricians on their staff, and I cannot believe this is the first installation of CSST they have ever seen. I think I will give them first chance at this.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    CSST Bonding:

    It was always required to be bonded, just not enforced. I think enforcement started through a large political lobby that didn't like how easy it was to install over iron screw pipe. Someone claimed to have found holes in it after an electrical storm.

    At the PHCC trade show last Spring in Marlboro, Trac Pipe was there with their counterstrike stuff. They had a sample of damaged pipe. It looked like defective pipe with a "pin hole". The other looked like it had come in cotact with a 400,000 transmission line.

    The thing that became a problem was that no one wanted to accept jurisdiction. And who was responsible for the bonding. It was left to wiring inspectors to decide. Where I work, the wiring inspector outlawed it because there was no drawing in the NEC code book showing how to bond it. So the electricians refused to bond it. And we couldn't use it. Though it was used all over Massachusetts except in select locations where inspectors refused.

    Trac Pipe owns the patents for Counter-strike which is just a high carbom plastic like on my electric fence. My supplier changed to Trac Pipe and we all had a lovely luncheon, took a test and became certified in Counterstrike. Even though I was already certified with the yellow stuff.

    You can clamp on the adapters. Or, the pipe. But NOT on the carbon/plastic cover.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    CSST Bonding:

    Here's the poop on Counterstrike:

    http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/why/learnmore_CounterStrike.php

    It is bonded like anything else.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,216
    I just run black iron

    I find it puts the same dollars in my pocket as CSST but less in my wholesalers pocket. Sorry you know I love the guys at the wholesalers and they treat me well, I simply work for my living though. The question was solid or stranded I say I am not qualified to answer as I am not an electrician or manufacturer. If asked to change that I would ask where it is stated as nice as I could. If he can show you then change it to stranded if he can not then see if you feel like fighting it out. Thats a lot of copper wire to keep as a paper weight though.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,216
    Here what NH has to say

    http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/firesafety/building/mechanical/gasfitters/documents/TechnicalBulletinonCSST7-16-09.pdf

    I must admit between chasing the boys around and eating turkey I did not read the whole thing. But what ever it says I guess is what you are now required to do. I go black iron only. The regs for it stay pretty much the same for the past 30 years or so.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    CSST Bonding:

    Charlie: (from WMass)

    Very informative and a history lesson on CSST. I have two certification cards from the mid '90's. And one from Trac Pipe from 08/2010. Guess that keeps me OK.

    As far as the wire size for bonding, it doesn't say anything about stranded or solid. But, inspectors like police officers, are always right. It's easier to do what they say than spend the money and win  a battle when they will win the war.

    It always seemed quite simple to me. The whole house is to be "bonded" that includes the gas system. The problem was with guys who couldn't figure out or accept a bond clamp on the plastic. Why would you put it there? One guy I spoke to was asking for a specifically approved clamp to go on the CSST tube. It goes on the pipe or fitting (dummey).
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,010
    well that does.....

    help. I think they are still trying to figure this out.... Black Steel it looking more and more the easier way to go. What was old is new again.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    Ok I got lost in some of the responses.

    In Maine, the state electrical inspector quoted NFPA 70, which is the National Electrical code.  It is requiring a #6 bare stranded wire be connected to the first fitting at the building entry and it must be connected to the same grounding rod as the buildings electrical system.  The electricians I work with usually bond it for me and normally daisy chain a ground at my gas manifolds, catching the first fitting headed to all the appliances.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,216
    Ice sailor sorry to say

    The old cards are not OK anymore. You need to be re-certified by each manufacturer. Yes that is another reason to go black and stay there.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    CSST and grounding...

    "It is requiring a #6 bare stranded wire be connected to the first

    fitting at the building entry and it must be connected to the same

    grounding rod as the buildings electrical system."



    Hard to do around here. According to the electrician, the electical system must be grounded to TWO grounding rods, separated by six feet. It must use #6 green grounding wire (seems to be 6 strands). It is ALSO grounded to the water pipe with #4 black grounding wire. I did not check if that is stranded or solid. So to meet the code around here, unless the electrician was wrong and the inspector asleep, it is impossible to meet the requirements in Main and New Hampshire. For better or worse, I am in New Jersey.



    I checked and there seems to be a dielectric union at the output of the piping leading from the gas meter as the black pipe leaves the meter. This came with the assembly supplied by the gas company to which the meter (and regulator is attached. So nominally, there is no ground there. I am sure a near-hit from lightning would just flash over that union though. It will be a pretty poor ground, because less than three feet into the ground, that metal pipe switches to plastic to go out to the street, where the gas main is also plastic.



    If, they put a clamp at either end of the CSST and run it to the power panel, there will already be way more than 10 feet of ground wire (probably more than 20), and from the power panel to the nearest ground (the water pipe entering the house) will be at least 20 feet more. I read some code once that said the ground must be 10 feet or less from the power panel. Well that seems impossible. 15 years or so ago, I had a 100 Amp power panel put in and the electrician said I needed a second ground, not just the water pipe, so he put a hole in the wall and ran a green wire outside, and drilled a hole through the concrete driveway for a ground stake. The hole had to be about a foot from the house (because otherwise he would have had to drill through the entire footing for the house). Well the inspector approved that. I guess 2 grounds were enough back then.



    But when I remodeled the kitchen, got an electric clothes dryer, microwave oven, diswasher, etc., and still had an electric hot water heater, the electrician said I needed a 200 Amp power panel. By then I needed a total of three grounds, and I cold not use the one right next to the house because the green wire was exposed and could be broken off by accident (unlikely, but true). And the inspector approved it like that.



    I cannot have just one ground for the system as seemingly required to ground the CSST (and seems to be correct from the point of view of lightning currents in the earth ground), and multibple grounds seemingly required by the electrical code around here from the point of view of the code for safety.



    I am reminded of the adventures of a friend who opened a restaurant around here. Two problems. She was required to have smooth tile on the floor of the kitchen to comply with health code, and rough tile to comply with OSHA. Her lawyer said (not in writing) that she had to bribe one of the inspectors. Same thing with the septic system. One inspector required one size tank, and another required another size. She figured no problem, have the larger size installed. Failed inspection. The one inspector said it was too large. She had to bribe one of those. She is an honest person and would never have though of bribing an inspector. But her lawyer said there was no other solution to these problems.



    I guess I should just have the CSST ripped out and replaced with black pipe. But I cannot imagine anyone other than me will get to pay for it. Not a do it yourself project for someone with no plumbing license, and no training in gas fitting.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Intent of the grounding requirement

    Regardless of the specifics of the CSST code grounding requirement, the real intent is to assure that there is little difference in voltage occurring between the CSST and the nearest grounded metallic objects. From what I have read, the failures of CSST were caused during lightning strikes when arcs occurred between the CSST and adjacent grounded piping or conduits, therby perforating the thin gas line. This is not a problem with black iron since the wall diameter is so thick that a momentary arc will not burn through the pipe. Thinwall CSST is a different story as the very thin wall can be instantly heated and melted by the arc. If the CSST is grounded at both ends to the nearest electrically grounded metallic oblects, then the possibility of a high potential being developed betwen them is reduced.



    In your case, I dont think to have too much cause to worry since I believe you mentioned that there are no nearby grounded metallic objects adacent to the whole run of CSST. If there is nothing the CSST can arc to there is little possiblity of perforation anf subsequent failure.
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    this is a safety issue ....

    exactly the same as any other clause in the gas code. In our area stranded is preferred as 6 solid and 6 stranded are vastly different in their current carrying capacities. Black iron (A53) must be bonded as well - 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I would suspect that every jurisdiction has a clause specifying bonding or is about to introduce it. So whether you install CSST or black: bonding protects the occupants and more importantly - the gas piping system.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    CSST bonding:

    Mike,

    There is another part to the CSST equation that is never, ever mentioned. And that is the conductivity of Stainless Steel. It $ucks. Silver wire is the best but too expensive. Copper is the best practical but expensive. Aluminum is a good choice but it  doesn't have the conductivity of copper and so you must up-size the wire size for the same load as copper. Whatever carries electricity well, also transfers heat or cold well. Copper coils with aliminum fins. Steel fin tube radiation has a much lower BTU output ber foot than copper fin tube of the same size.

    Stainless steel is a terrible conductor. They came out with SS CTS tube in the late 60's and a lot of guys used it on heat. You could hold your hand thre inches from where you were soldering and not feel heat. The solder didn't stick and the back of a fitting wouldn't get hot. Hence leaks.

    It is a terrible conductor of electricity. Ever see overhead SS wire?

    Lightning likes to travel on things it likes. I'm not questioning the bonding requirements. But judgeing its poor conductivity and being insulated, I wonder about the kerfuffle.

    Besides, I always thought that the NEC required that anything connected to an electrical appliance had to be "bonded" to the electrical system. A gas stove, connected to a 3 prong outlet doesn't constitute as "bonded" if the gas piping system isn't bonded to the grounding system.

    My new home (2000) has a hole drilled through the concrete floor with a rotary hammer and a 10' ground rod driven into the ground. Under the 200 Amp panel with the panel ground run out the bottom of the panel and directly connected to the ground. Connected to the neutral bar in the panel. How easy is that?
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,766
    csst bonding and lighting

    Personally i was cert. many years ago when i believe it was wardsboro type csst became popular ,it supposes use was to be able to run higher pressure gas through smaller diamter csst then install a maxitrol valve and reduce pressure i found that to be total BS and so did my bosses we never used it because of the price of the maxitrol and then running vents lines for then ,but on this bonding issue and the lighting this is not bull i personally have seen it and repiped it in steel at a friends parents home where lighting had stuck a tree in there front yard after wards they smelt gas called pse&g and they shut the line off i went and checked it out and found a hole throug the jacket and  tubing right next to a galv 2 hole strap ,i did not install the tubing a insert fireplace ompany did i just repiped in steel this is going bak at least 10 years ago ,my lic plumbing buddy who installs miles of this crap did not believe me when i told him about this and stated that it must be isolated incindent and that he has never had any promblems beside some one had a picture and drilling throug it ,well well well about 1 month ago he called and stated long behold the clamm did not lie he had it happen to one of his jobs ,lighting strike across the street blew out a hole in some csst HO had him remove it all and repipe in steel enough said ? No really here in jersey i have yet to see 1 csst system bonded and yet about 2 years ago there was some info on the counter of a local supply house but i made no difference  miles of this crap gets installed in jersey and i have yet to see on bond at any job i have been at it seems like a crime and witnesses nobody see anything or maybe by the time you factor in all the BS  approved nail plates ,termination  plates and paying the electrican and more permits it is not cost effecitive so why bond it .All i have to say is i have never used it recommend it nor would install it it seems like a great product that cuts time requires very little skill and make GC,s a bit more money another shot at a job that anybody can do and since the csst manafatures have sent out all this BS info they are off the hook and so are the towns inspectors and GC's so when the lawyers are fishing for some one to sue it looks like the installer will be getting a hook set in there wallets.In closing it does not take much for some one to drill a hole in the sheetrock to install a anchor and drill into a piece of csst and create a leak ,it takes a bit more work to do that to a peice of sch 40 black pipe no.Ok i'll get off my shoe box and how i feel about csst  just telling the truth as i see it .Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Code and bonding?

    "From what I have read, the failures of CSST were caused during lightning

    strikes when arcs occurred between the CSST and adjacent grounded

    piping or conduits, therby perforating the thin gas line."



    That is what I meant earlier. If I try to bond the CSST I have, the ground wire will run right next to the CSST on the way to the system ground (eventually), providing a pathway for arcing between the CSST and ground that would not exist if I did not put in bonding wire. Thus, ignoring the code, I would be inclined not to bond.



    Furthermore, it seems to me that the CSST is connected by the fittings at each end of the CSST to the black pipe. So most of the way. Now the black pipe is not grounded at all unless the connection between the black pipe and the blower and mixer valve and on to the block of the boiler are all equivalent to  #6 gauge wire, and I doubt that. Because once it gets to the block, it is connected to copper tubing back to the water system and it is grounded. There is a long run of 3/4" copper pipe out to the street. I think it safe to assume that my gas lines are essentially not grounded at all. Can it be that in NJ there is no code requiring gas systems to be grounded? Because if the code requires grounding, my problem is bigger than the section of CSST: none of the gas piping is grounded.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Back to iron pipe?

    Maybe the best solution is to just be done with it and install good old iron pipe. JD, in your case, seems like the ground situation is more complicated since the incoming end of the gas service is floating with respect to ground. To me, the best place to ground would be at this point of entry, with a separate ground rod located as close as possible.



    To lightning, running 40 or 50 feet of wire back to the electrical service ground is like having no ground at all. Because of the fast risetime of the lightning strike waveform, the inductance of all that wire would introduce appreciable impedance into the current path, making grounding pretty ineffective. Although it might satisfy the code requirement, the effectiveness for lightning protection would be pretty questionable.



    After reading the attached failure analysis of CSST lightning damage, I am pretty sure I would not want it in my own home.
This discussion has been closed.