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Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

I am a homeowner who recently converted from oil heat to gas. I have a one-pipe steam system on a home built approx. 1948. Before converting, all radiators in the home heated up at approximately the same time. (I had balanced the system as described in Dan's book by replacing all of the steam valves on all of the radiators). Since the change, the front of the house is warmer than the back of the house and even though the thermostat is set to the same temperature as when heated by oil, the house feels chillier. The basement, however, is much warmer, especially in and around the vicinity of the boiler room. Recently, I noticed that the radiators on the first and second floors which are furthest from the boiler no longer heat all the way through. I have had several "experts" come to troubleshoot the problem. One raised the pressure from 2 lbs to 5lbs and said that was the problem-the pressure was set too low. Another said that the thermostat was located in a bad spot. It is located in the living room right above where the boiler is. I didn't think this explanation was correct because the thermostat's location was the same when I heated with oil and I didn't have this problem. I don't think anyone has a clue as to what the trouble is and I am beginning to give up all hope of finding a solution. All I know is that I have high bills and a chilly home. Does anyone have any idea as to what could be the matter? Please let me know.
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Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,170
    Did you change

    the boiler, or just the burner?  If you changed the boiler, make sure that all the near boiler piping was done according to the manufacturer's directions!  Be surprised how often it isn't...



    Was insulation removed from any of the piping?  If so, put it back!  For that matter, if any of the steam piping isn't insulated, insulate it.



    5 pounds pressure is too high for a residential system.  It will kill your vents, if it hasn't already.  Dial it back down to no more than 2 cutout, .5 cutin -- 1.5 and .5 is better.



    Anyway, first things to look at are anything -- anything -- other than the fuel source that was changed.



    And tell us more about it...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

    In reply to your question, yes the entire boiler, not burner, was replaced. No, did not remove any insulation from the pipes and all the near boiler piping and the steam main is insulated. New boiler is a Burnham IN-8 gas-fired. No aquastat, seperate hot water tank. Old oil boiler was replaced because it developed a serious leak. From reading other post could problem be the main vent? I have a finished basement and do not see a main vent. Do all steam systems have them? Could it be buried in the wall or ceiling? I have 3 radiators located in the basement and they become slightly warm only. Does this indicate a problem with not enough steam reaching them? I have owned home for 17 years and have never seen or changed steam main. I have been told that oil produces a hotter heat than gas and oil boilers produce steam more quickly than gas boilers. Could this be a source of my problem? It really doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Please, please help as we are cold and our bills are high. Let me know if you need more info. Thanks for your help.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    edited November 2010
    Near boiler piping

    Please take pictures of what they did from different angles so we can see what they did.



    Jamie points out the importance of the near boiler piping and that is vital. New boilers are different beasts than the old ones. Just placing a new boiler and hooking it up without adhering to the recommended near boiler piping never works out. Look at the installation booklet and compare the recommended piping to what you have.



    Venting very important and one pipe steam should have a vent on the mains(s) but some did use steam traps instead (rare). Did the installer replace any of the radiator air vents? If that system ran at 5PSI some of your vents could be toast - including the elusive main vent.  My single pipe system is now running at 12 oz and your cutout should be no more than1.5PSI.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited November 2010
    Problem System

    Hi-  To trouble shoot your system we need to take it a step at a time and learn more about it.  Since the boiler and the piping have been changed we need to check this out first.  As mentioned take some pictures of the boiler and connected piping so we can see how it is configured.  Stand back a bit so you can get the piping attached to the boiler and where the piping leads above the boiler in the pictures. If you take them in high resolution we can then blow them up if we need more detail. Take them from all sides of the boiler so we can trace the piping from one picture to the next.

    Do you have the have the I&O manual for the IN 8? If not your can download it from this link:

    http://www.usboiler.burnham.com/pdf/Independence%20I&O%202-10.pdf

    Look on page 17 as it gives instructions as to how the IN8 boiler should be piped.

    Where are you located? Have you checked the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of this page to see if a steam pro is located near you? The previous "experts" you have consulted are a waste of time as they obviously know nothing about steam systems. Posts some pictures and we'll go on from there.

    - Rod
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    water level considered?

    did the water line change between new and old systems? did you consider any pipes which may have been affected by a change in water line?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    Yes vents can be a part of it..

    but since the boiler was recently changed i wonder if it was skimmed..or does it need to be skimmed again..also on a side note- i would respectfully request you change your handle as its very similar if not the same as the company name of Steamheads firm whose a regular poster here on the wall..just respectfully asking so as to avoid confusion..
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited November 2010
    How to let us know where you are.

    I was a bit confused by the nickname too so I looked it up and this nickname has been a member since April 2008!  But as Mr. Gill has suggested, to avoid confusion, why don't you  under another just go into account settings and change your nickname and use the same post title  "Help! Desperately Seeking Solution" so we can easily find you again. I had the same problem with the first nickname I used when I joined this website.

    - Rod

    Edit- Thanks jpf - I corrected my post. Your suggestion is much simpler.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    edited November 2010
    test username change

    you don't need to reregister .. just go into account settings anf change nickname
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    its simple

    Was the boiler sized correctly or just swapped out?  Ask for the worksheet used to size it...If size is correct, like others said check the near boiler piping....if that's correct is the boiler water dirty, was it skimmed as many times necessary?   It is hard to think you got a new boiler and the main vents were not replaced, that there is a  no brain-er...But don't just change them and be happy, it sounds like boiler is not not sized or installed correctly...Installing means cleaning also....As far as oil heating faster I am willing to bet the oil was just pouring in at a very fast rate so the  tank could be filled more often   lol    A btu is a btu.....Mr. Dan and his books are the most useful tools in the steam heating business  I am sure there is one for you    good luck and be sure to report back....this site is also a great learnig tool    J A
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution Update and Boiler Photos

    Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving! Sorry to take so long in getting the pictures, but here they are. New update- we are still cold except for the basement. Now the boiler constantly cycles on and off. It stays on for about 5 minutes, then shuts down for 15-20 minutes, starts up again for 5 minutes, etc. It goes like this all day and night. We are using a ton of gas and still cold, especially on the upper floor. Looks like the heat just doesn't want to get there. Some days the riser to the second story is boiling hot and some days it's ice cold. Why the difference on different days? Help please! I also followed the main all the way to the end and it looks like there is no main vent. Should I have one? None of the piping other than the piping around the new boiler has been changed. Everything else stayed the same. Let me know if you need more info. Thanks.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Multiple problems

    First of all, the near boiler piping is lacking a  header. The riser from the top of the boiler goes directly up to the steam main with the equalizer tapped off the side of the riser. Definitely not piped according to manufacturers specifications. Lack of a main vent is also a concern.



    Did you change the thermostat at the same time? Sounds like the thermostat is not set for a cycles per hour setting of one or two, which is proper for a steam system. Boiler running for 5 minutes and then shutting off for 20 definitely doesn't sound right for a steam system. Five minutes of firing certainly does not give you enough time to fill all the radiators with steam. If you have an older thermostat with a heat anticipator, it might need to be readjusted for the different electrical load presented by the new gas boiler controls.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    It's piped wrong

    A burnham IN-8 is a good sized boiler (633 sq ft of steam) and it makes steam at a tremendous rate, this makes your near boiler piping critical. I hope they looked at all the radiators to size that boiler correctly, 600+ sq feet is a boatload of radiators.



    If you look at page 17 of the enclosed installation manual you will see yours is not piped anything like the installation manual states it should be. Both steam outlets should be used and the header should be AT LEAST 24" above the NWL. The piping has to be at least the same size of the steam outlets (2") and the header is specified as 3" not 2"; the pipe is reduced after it turns down to the equalizer. If the near boiler piping is not correct, the boiler won't work correctly.



    The existing house steam main should be fed from between the second steam outlet and the equalizer of the header, don't let them take the steam off between the two boiler steam outlets, Ask the installer why they did not follow the installation piping that is on page 17, there is no excuse for not following that diagram. Modern boilers HAVE TO BE PIPED CORRECTLY PER THE MANUAL; note that page specifies those values are THE MINIMUM acceptable sizes. If it's not piped like that Burham will not stand behind the boilers operation.



    As others have stated, the operation at high pressure may have destroyed the radiator vents as well as the main vents, hopefully that has been turned back down to 1-1/2 PSI



    good luck,



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    Yup

    they didn't waste eny time reading the manual. It needs to be completely repiped.



    See the signature photo in Gerry's post above for one of the best examples I've seen of how to do it right.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Well ain't that a punch in the guts!

    Sounds like there will be no simple solution.  Been there.  Might as well start planning for a re-pipe.  Where are you, maybe there is someone from around here that can come over and knock it out for you?  Or you could use the Find a Contractor section at the top of this page.  The 3rd option is the most time consuming, and that is to hit the books, get steam smart, and be your own contractor.  Carefull out there!  Good luck with your decision! 

     
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Now what

    Your new gas boiler is about as badly piped as it could possibly be and the first of December is next week. While you go through the negotiations to get it properly piped i suggest you do the following.



    Make sure that Pressuretol is set so the maximum pressure is 1.5 to 2 PSI. Ask anyone who tells you it has to be set higher to leave the house.



    Check every air vent on every radiator to make sure it is working, high pressure may have damaged them.



    The heat seemed fine before the boiler was changed so there must have been main vents at that time, find out where they were and put them back and use nice big ones. This new boiler will build steam a lot faster than the old one so venting is even more important now.



    While your looking for main vents make sure the main is sloped properly.







    You said the boiler runs for 5 minutes and then shuts down for 15 before

    repeating the cycle. Does the boiler build any pressure at the end of a

    burn cycle? Check your thermostat and make sure it is set to 1 or 2 cycles per hour, assuming it is a new auto set back model (you should be able to find a manual online) . If it is an older model try fiddling with the anticipator to get it to burn longer. Also if your venting is bad the steam can't get upstairs - steam will not go where there is air unless the vents let the air escape.



    If you can get it to burn for 15-20 minutes see how things heat up and note the pressure and if the sight glass is bouncing up and down a lot.



    let us know what you find.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited November 2010
    Piping needs to be Changed

    Hi- As others have mentioned, your near boiler piping is not properly configured and this needs to be changed to get your system working properly. Modern boilers rely on properly configured near boiler piping to remove water from the steam which is why it is very important to follow the manufacturer's piping instructions when installing a new boiler. The concepts and design is different in a modern boiler so connecting the new boiler to the steam main like it was done on the old boiler can lead to problems such as you are having. While it is rather obvious that whomever installed the new boiler doesn't know much about steam, is it possible that you could get them to correct the piping (per the installation manual) for you?  You might also tell us where you are located so we could possibly refer you to a good steam pro.



    I've attached one of your pictures with an arrow marked "A". This pipe is what is know as the "wet return", Trace this back from the boiler to the steam main as you might find the main vent somewhere along this pipe between the boiler and the far end of the steam main. The main vent will look like a silver bullet  pointing up or a small can of tuna on its side. The main vent location is most likely where the pipe leaves the floor level and goes up near the ceiling. If not there then between there and the end of the steam main. (if not attached on the steam main, close to the end)

    - Rod
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

    Thanks guys for all your help. I was beginning to suspect the piping was the problem all along. As far as the main vent goes, I've located it and will change it ASAP. The thermostat is a new Honeywell RTH6400. Does this thermostat have an anticipator? Is there any way to set the cycles per hour? Manual that came with the thermostat doesn't say anything. Should I put back the old Honeywell mercury thermostat? I still have it and it worked fine. If I do put it back, do I need to adjust the anticipator? Is it compatible with the new gas boiler?As far as having the installer re-pipe the boiler, I would rather get a steam pro to do the job right than argue with him. I am located in Brooklyn, NY. Can you recommend any good steam pros that can fix the piping? None of the other plumbers who came out to look at my boiler have mentioned anything about the piping and I don't trust them to touch anything. Thanks so much for all your help. At least now I have some hope that this problem will be resolved soon and we will be nice and toasty for the winter. You guys rock!
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

    Sorry, forgot to add that right now when the boiler runs for it's 3 minutes, the pressure gage doesn't read any pressure. Since it cycles on for only about 3-5 minutes at a time, it doesn't have enough time to build pressure. Is this a problem with the thermostat or the piping? When I manually raise the temperature setting on the thermostat 4-5 degrees the boiler heats up and begins to build pressure right away- within 15-20 minutes. So the boiler is quite capable of producing enough steam to heat the house (19 radiators total, so it's sized correctly) but when left alone without this constant raising of the thermostat, it just doesn't seem to work right. Because the new thermostat only needs to fall one degree below the set temperature before calling for heat, it seems to become satisfied before the boiler produces enough steam to heat all the radiators. Old mercury thermostat used to have difference of two degrees before it called for heat and the old boiler would run longer to produce 2 degrees of heat. Could it be that the one degree that the new boiler must produce is not long enough time to build enough pressure? Can I adjust the new thermostat to fall 2 degrees before calling for heat like my old one or does it have to fall only 1 degree? Any feedback would be appreciated. Just kind of thinking about things. I could be wrong.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Honeywell RTH6400

    http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/PackedLit/69-2210EF.pdf

    Yes it has an anticipator look on page 17.  They call it the heating cycle rate, steam should be set to 1.  Keep the old thermostat safe for now.  I think there is someone around here that services Brooklyn.  Whats the zip code?  I'll see if I can find someone that I recognise.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    try gateway plumbing

    you can google "gateway plumbing brooklyn" to find then. john has posted here before as well
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Thermostat

    Sounds like the thermostat is your immediate problem. Honeywell thermostats come out of the box set for 6 cycles per hour, which is appropriate for hot air systems but certainly not for steam. The problem of cycling you describe sounds exactly like a thermostat set for 6 cycles per hour. Reset the cycles setting as Crash describes and the system should run fewer but longer cycles which is what you desire.
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

    Thanks for the suggestions. Will try Gateway. My zip code, by the way, is 11228. So if you know of any other good steam pros please let me know.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited November 2010
    New Hyde Park?

    Hi- Are you close to New Hyde Park? There is a really good steam pro there by the name of Matt Sweeney.  Here's his website. http://www.triplecrownonline.com/

    He's also listed in the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of this page.

    - Rod
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    triple crown won't

    come to queens so I doubt they will come to brooklyn
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution Update

    Just wanted to let everyone know that I did as suggested and had the boiler repiped according to boiler manufacturer's specs. I will take photos and upload them as soon as I can so you can see the job. I also located and changed the main air vent to a Gorton #2 from a Dole #1933. Main is approximately 50 feet long. In the meantime, I am still suffering from the same problem I had before the repipe. Boiler runs all day and night for short intervals of only 3-5 minutes maximum if I set thermostat to desired temperature and leave it alone. Basement is stifling because boiler is hot due to constant cycling on and off for the 3-5 minutes, but rest of house is cold.In order to push heat upstairs I have to manually raise the thermostat a good 6-10 degrees and let the boiler run to try to make up the temperature . When I do this, all the radiators get hot and boiler builds pressure according to the guage .However, when I leave the thermostat to run on its own, the heat never reaches the rest of the house because it runs every few minutes for only 3 minutes or so then shuts off as if it reached temperature. I have replaced thermostat 3 times already and still have the same problem. The steam pro you recommended came out and told me that a steam system does not run right using the new digital thermostats because they are made for hot air systems. He said he preferred the old mercury types. I told him I still had the old Honeywell mercury thermostat which was used on the old oil-fired boiler and it worked fine. He swapped out the thermostat for the mercury one and charged me $300 for his trouble. House still has same problem as described. I am wondering if the anticipator setting has anything to do with this problem? Now that I am running on gas, what should the anticipator be set at? Does it make any difference now that I am no longer heating by oil? Please help me figure out what is happening as I now have a repiped boiler and have changed 3 thermostats but still have no heat on the upper floors,and large gas bills. Oh, and I am also out several thousand dollars for the repiping.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Short cycling and anticipator setting

    You can easily adjust the anticipator of the old Honeywell thermostat. If you take off the cover ring, you will see a graduated scale from .4 to 1.2. Set the slider at the 1.2 end and see how the system operates. It should now run much longer before the thermostat is satisfied. The anticipator operation depends on the electrical current draw of the boiler controls which have been changed with the new boiler, and are now much different than they were with the old oil boiler.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    slow down the venting in the thermostat room

    I think you might need to slow down the venting in the thermostat room.  Is it warm in the room that has the thermostat?  Just for a test, turn off the radiator in that room.  This should allow the rest of the house to warm up normally.  If the test helped to warm the rest of the house, show us a picture of the radiator you shut off for the test and we will figure out what it needs.
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution Update-Anticipator Setting

    I was advised by several plumbers who were waiting to pick up parts at my local supply house that the anticipator should be set to match the number on the gas control valve on my boiler. The number on the gas control valve reads .70. There is a .70 setting on the thermostat. Am I correct in assuming that these numbers should match or am I being advised incorrectly? Please advise. Also, in regard to the suggestion that I shut off a radiator in the room where the thermostat is located to slow down the heating time, please be advised that I have 2 radiators in that room and BOTH RADIATORS ARE SHUT OFF via the supply valve. There is an open archway that separates the room where the thermostat is located and the living room, which has 2 radiators. These 2 radiators in the living room are OPEN. Actually, to be more precise, I do not have radiators, but recessed cast-iron convectors like the ones pictured in Dan's book We Got Steam Heat on page 104. If I am counting correctly, they are both 8 section, just like the ones in the photo. Maybe this info will help find a solution.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Anticipator setting

    The plumbers are correct that the anticipator setting should correspond to the number on the valve. This is just a nominal value however, it does not take into account the specific characteristics of your system. In general the higher you set the number, the longer the boiler will run before the thermostat is satisfied. You can try it at .70 and gradually increase the setting towards 1.2 until to get the cycle length you want. Dom't worry, you cannot damage anything by adjusting it higher. If set at 1.2, the anticipator is basically out of the circuit and has no effect at all.



    The principle behind the anticipator is very simple. Basically it is a little electrical heater underneath the thermostatic spring, which heats it up before the heat from the radiator arrives. So, basically it "fools" the sensor into thinking that the room is up to temperature before it actually reaches the setpoint, so you dont overshoot the setting and overheat the house. If set incorrectly, it can shut down the boiler prematurely, causing short cycling as you are experiencing. Setting the antiicipator ll the way up at 1.2 effectively bypasses it, and the thermostat responds to the room temperature alone.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    edited December 2010
    test

    Mike knows more about this stuff than I do.  What he says makes sense to me.  I don't know if the supply house is right or wrong in what they told you.  All I do know about old Honeywell thermostats is that they should be set to 1.2 for steam.  When I set mine, I needed a magnifying glass to read the 1.2, If you dont have any results with setting the anticipator you could try the following.



    What I am thinking here is that the radiation surrounding the thermostat is working OK, and because its working OK, Its telling the thermostat to shut off the boiler before the rest of the house can get any heat.  So, if we shut off the heat near the thermostat, the rest of the house should warm up.  You might be having the same problem as I had recently.  Can you see in my diagram the boiler, then the first line to 3-B and 2-Bath.  My thermostat is installed right beside 2-Bath.  When the boiler starts running 3-B and 2-Bath are the first to be heated up.  Once they get warm they dont give a dam about the rest of the house so they tell the boiler to shut off, and the rest of the house stays cold.  This went on over and over until I slowed the venting to 2-Bath.  2-Bath has a small convector in it with a vari-valve adjustable 1-8.  It was set to 8, now its set to 2. 



    Getting back to the test mentioned in my last post.  Can you turn off all radiation that could directly warm up the thermostat.  Both rooms on each side of the arch wall.  I am assuming these rooms are warm enough right?   If you shut them off and wait an hour or 2 does the rest of the house warm up normally?  If so get me a photo of the air vents on the radiation surrounding the thermostat and we will go on from there. 



    I used the wrong name, I do not have a vari-valve, I have a Ventrite adjustable 1-8
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution-EMERGENCY!!!-New Problem NO HEAT!

    HELP!! Thanks everybody for the help on the thermostat. I think I solved that one-it was the anticipator setting. Last night and this morning she heated beautifully. Then I decided to change the air valves on the radiators because high pressure boiler had run on (5 lbs. before I was told to crank it down) may have fried them along with the main valve. I cahnged main valve to a Gorton #1 from a Dole #1933. I have a finished basement with 3 radiators mounted on the wall above the boiler water line that were not heating. I decided to change the air vents and found that they were full of dirty, gunky black water. After I changed the valves, the boiler kicked on and began to produce heat. I figured this was a good time to see if the rads would now heat. I heard some faint hissing from the new valve on the first rad closest to the boiler and then some faint hissing from the second rad from the boiler. Then there was a succession of fairly loud banging coming from the wall before the first radiator. The boiler suddenly shut down. I went into the boiler room and looked at the pressure guage and it looked like it had hit pressure. When the pressure dropped, the boiler started up again and within a few seconds it seemed like, there was a bunch of REALLY LOUD banging from the piping that must run to the rads behind the wall and the boiler shook violently. I immediately shut the boiler down and now I"m afraid to try to start it up again. It looks like the steam is backing up into the boiler and has nowhere to go.HELP!!!WHAT DO I DO NOW? I had assumed that I only had one main running from the boiler, but I think that by changing out those radiator valves I inadvertently discovered that I may have 2 mains? One feeds the first 2 rads in the boiler and then connects down to the wet return below? Does this sound plausible? Is there a blockage somewhere before these 2 rads or are the rads themselves filled with water and causing this? Should I try to drain the wet return? What should I do because now I can't run the boiler at all and it's in the 20s here in New York. Please advise as soon as possible. I will be awaiting instructions as I wait for a plumber to show up. It's real hard to get ahold of anyone right now. I will also try to take some pictures of the basement and the rads in question and upload them.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    pictures

    Lets start with some pictures of the boiler so that we can see whats going on.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    please call me ..

    i sent you a direct contact yesterday .. and i am sending one again immediately after this .. please call me my number is in the direct contact. 
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution-EMERGENCY!!!-New Problem NO HEAT!

    As promised, here are photos of basement and newly repiped boiler. Boiler is a Burnham IN8 and feeds 19 convectors on first and second floors of home and the three radiators in the basement. I forgot to take pictures of the 3rd rad in basement, but it's located to the left of the door you see in one of the pictures. This door is the back door from basement to backyard. Moving to the right of the back door you come to what I call the 2nd rad from the boiler. 1st rad from boiler is the big one to the right of basement window. Picture showing basement window at the extreme right (up against end of wall) depicts where basement living room ends and boiler room begins. Boiler room is located behind the wall where you see TV.Banging was heard coming from the long wall to the right of the 1st rad, the big one. I had originally thought that I had 2nd main from boiler to these rads, but now I don't think so because I don't see a second main coming from boiler. I tried to take pictures of piping above the boiler to show how they run from boiler. I don't know if you can see well.Above picture with 2 gas meters( house is a 2 family home) you see 2 takeoffs that go up (wrapped in insulation-sorry didn't think to remove it to see better). I believe they feed the 2 convectors in the 1st floor living room because they are in this general location. Main continues along to the right and makes a 90 degree turn into the finished living room.Banging seemed to be coming from left side of boiler.As mention before, I heard hissing from the 1st big rad, then hiss from 2nd smaller rad before banging. I tried to put boiler on for a second again then shut off immediately. Took air vent of bigger rad and it was clean & no water. Took vent off 2nd smaller rad & found it was full of black, thick water and crud. Don't know if any of this makes sense or helps. Not thinking straight right now.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    as a test...

    flip the vents on the basement rads upside down .. and fire boiler .. please report back. I am headed out at 4PM .. and unavailable for several hours. if you want me to stop by tonight sometime after 10PM i can. i left you my phone number in a "direct contact" email.



    my fear is that although the wall rads are above water line while boiler is at rest, the are below water line when you have system pressure (water rises 28"/1psi)



    when you say that you are getting black water from the rads? is it POURING out the rads? or just a few tablespoons in the vents? what type of vents are installed on basement wall rads?



    with convectors, you need very very very little steam to fill them. are they 1-pipe convectors or 2-pipe? do you have other "RADIATORS" in the home as well or only the ones in the basement?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution-EMERGENCY!!!-New Problem NO HEAT!

    There is no water pouring out of the rads when the boiler is off. When I removed valve water began to leak from the valve which was full- about a few tablespoons. Nothing came from the rad. I have not tried to run boiler because she shut down because pressure inside boiler built up right away-withinn a minute or so. Seems like steam is backing up back into boiler.Boiler shook violently as well as LOUD LOUD banging in long wall to left of basement window just before(to right of) the big rad you see in my pictures. Seems like steam travels to this rad and problems start. What can I do?
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    edited December 2010
    skimmed?

    was boiler skimmed after repipe?

    also is that Equalizer 1-1/2" pipe as called for by the I&O manual?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Help! Desperately Seeking Solution-EMERGENCY!!!-New Problem NO HEAT!

    Sorry-I have 1 pipe steam. The vents on these rads are Gorton C valves. Yes, equalizer is 1 and 1/2 inch pipe as in specs. No, boiler was not skimmed yet. Just repiped yesterday and was late. Needed heat overnight. Am thinking I should drain boiler and drain return. Will this help?All of the rads in the house are recessed convectors except for 3 in basement. They are pretty high up there on the wall. Please see my pics. Standing by to hear your reply.
  • Getting Steamed
    Getting Steamed Member Posts: 21
    Can Boiler explode if I try to run it?

    Can someone please let me know if I have a life-threatening situation on my hands? Plumber thinks we should try to run boiler and see if steam will force trapped water out somewhere. Says banging in pipes is water hammer. Says size of boiler and new 3" header is pushing a lot of steam. He says we have to try to "push" the blockage. Thinks the vibrations in the piping from boiler re-pipe loosened years of rust and crap in pipes. House built approx. 1948. Is this sound idea? HELP!!!!!!!!!! Family is hysterical.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Is there a drain valve some where?

    Isn't there any way to drain the wet returns?  Where are your returns?  I cant see them in any of the pictures.  What about that one thats half painted, between the floor and the wall.  Isn't that a return.  How does it hook up to the boiler?  Doesn't it have a drain on it somewhere? Maybe behind the desk or over to the right.  Theres gotta be a drain somewhere.  If there isnt put one in.
This discussion has been closed.