Help! Desperately Seeking Solution

jpf321

at ballet..but.

please send a pic of what you are calling convector. boiler will not threaten injury. who its this plumber that needs to push a blockage, I'd send him home but wait for someone else to back me up

Getting Steamed

Drain valve location and question about rads in basement

Yes, that is the wet return-the half-painted pipe to the left of the boiler near the floor. Have hooked a hose up to it and have been draining the water. Water in the boiler is very dark, thick, and full of rust(brown) and sediment. I think changing the valves helped push more steam thru system and this dislodged dirt/rust/jcrud in pipes. My guess (and plumber's too)is that this junk somehow got pushed back into the boiler, causing the loud bangs and shaking of the boiler. Am now trying to slowly clean out the boiler by filling and draining it. Hope that the stuff didn't find its way inside the boiler itself.Any suggestions on how best to go about it? By the way, has anyone ever seen radiators like this in the basement? It looks like they are fed from a single main and tie into the return. They are located high up on the walls and are fed from the top of the radiator. In other words the pipes supplying steam to these rads are higher up in the ceiling and then drop down to feed the rads. Ever see this before?

Unknown

Be Careful,,,

Many well-meaning posters here have nothing to lose, except for making a mistake,,, OOPS Sorry!



On the other hand, well proved & respected(in their field), pay proper liability insurance to guard(or protect themselves) against stupid mistakes.



I only ask that YOU BE CAREFUL!!!

Getting Steamed

Update

Have been draining boiler from valve on wet return near the very bottom of boiler. Water level in sight glass falls as we do this, but never falls more than 1/2 above bottom of sight glass. Shouldn't all the water leave the sight glass? Why do we still see water in sight glass? Does this mean that there is some sort of a blockage somewhere? Water taken from boiler is thick and muddy. Any thoughts?

Unknown

thick and muddy

Ya man,,,, better have someone who knows what they`re doing have a look at-it!

Steam Heat in LB

hartford loop

If your draining from the wet return the hartford loop is keeping the water from draining from the boiler. You need to drain the water from the bottom of the boiler.

crash2009

flush the boiler

Is the boiler cold now?  Do you and the plumber know how to flush the boiler?  Flushing will take all that dirty crap out of there.  Make sure the boiler is not hot.  and flush it too.  If you don't know how, you hook up the garden hose to the tap coming out of the bottom and turn on the water feeder, slowly at first then rinse it out  real good.  Then close the tap and fill it to the correct level.  I dont know how to flush your wet returns but if you can figure that out it would be a good thing.   Some people have temporarily removed a main vent, put in a garden hose fitting, hook up a garden hose to the fitting, the other end of hose goes to your water spigot (maybe the washing machine?) then drained it out the place you have the hose on now.  You need 2 hoses.  I realise you guys are busy but could you post a picture of how the wet return hooks up to the boiler?

Brian_74

fresh water valve leaking?

I'm not entirely sure that I'm following you, but if you're draining water and not adding more, I would think that the sight glass would eventually go below the half way point. Do you have an automatic feeder? Is it possible that the fresh water valve is leaking? The only other possibility I can think of is that you haven't drained as much water as you think you have.



Lastly, and please don't be offended, but when I read your postings, I get a very strong sense of panic from you and your family. I can understand why. It's bitter cold here, too. But I don't think anyone does their best work if they're panicing. If it were me, I'd want a pro in there. Again, I mean this to be helpful.

Unknown

1929 Ideal Heating vapor system.

If that is the system you indeed have,, I have to wonder how any oil or gas conversion (from coal), can help a boiler that was only produced with about 60% efficiency in the first place.

crash2009

Hartford

After reading all this all over again, Your question about why doesnt all the water come out of the boiler.  Is the Hartford plumbed into the boiler drain instead of the return tapping?  This is just a wild shot in the dark, I need that picture.



If you are draining the boiler from the boiler drain all the water should come out.  Including the water in the sight glass.  Is the sight glass tapping plugged?

crash2009

Picture

The picture I need is, back in the corner behind the boiler, I need to see how that half painted pipe (the wet return) connects to the boiler. 

Getting Steamed

Picture of Hartford Loop and return

Sorry, but don't have time to take pictures of Hartford Loop and whee return connects to boiler, but if you look at the pictures of the boiler before repipe you can see picture of Hartford Loop and where my copper return connects.Pictures #1 and #5 show this.

Getting Steamed

Photos of Return and Hatford Loop

Took pictures of return and Hartford Loop. Also took photos of other side of boiler where pressure relief valve is. Hope they help.

Getting Steamed

Answering Thick and Muddy

You said I'd better get someone who knows what they're doing look at it. The problem is who knows what they're doing? The steam specialist I called in to help with the boiler short cycling just changed the thermostat back to the old mercury one but didn't adjust the anticipator. If he's such a steam pro, wouldn't he have done this? Still had same problem I had with the other thermostat. Only thru posst on this site was I helped with setting the anticipator correctly.Trouble is, here in the NYC area, most experts talk big, but when it comes down to it they send in a bunch of young kids who obviously don't have the knowledge or experience to figure out what's wrong. If I'm going to pay for a pro, I expect to get a pro. The one I called was recommended by a few wallies and is listed under the find a contractor thread.They weren't much help.Guess that integrity and pride in one's work isn't very important in NYC.

BobC

Wrong drain!

In pictures 6-8 you show the side of the boiler that has the relief drain pipe, on that same side there is a valve that is the boiler drain - use that to drain the water out of the boiler.



The return pipe drain you are using will only drain the boiler down to 2" below the normal water line because your going through the hartford loop.



Get that drain hose over to the boiler drain and feed water into the boiler through the fill valve and you will be able to flush the boiler.



Bob 

Getting Steamed

Wrong Drain!

Thanks Dan! Will begin to drain boiler from other side. While your'e at it, any thoughts on what else I can do to fix this problem other than draining and cleaning?

BobC

Wrong drain

i really don't know what else to tell you to try. It looks like the only thing your guy did was to hook the second riser up to the header so crud in the boiler water seems to be the likely problem, of course it's hard to tell without looking at it in person.



If you can flush the boiler out till the water seems reasonably clean, hopefully it will let you get some heat back in the house tonight.



good luck,



Bob

jpf321

sometimes the best help is free

I've offered help and visit. I'm available now if you want me over. I can bring a hose.

JohnNY

Getting Steamed,

I am the owner of Gateway Plumbing and Heating. My guys were there on November 29th. Thank you for your call. I understand they were at your home for quite a while as they called me several times and sent phone pics from the site with many questions about your system. I'm sorry to learn *here* that they were not ultimately able to provide a satisfactory result.



First of all, I'd like to comment (assuming others are not because it's heartbreaking to witness) that your repipe is wrong too.



Second, since the service I provided didn't seem to help you, and you paid me for it, you were well within your rights to give our office a call back to discuss options. With that in mind, I would like to at least offer a site visit where I may see the system myself without further expense to you. I'm certain if there is a problem, I will find it.



If that seems fair, please call my office at 718-980-0909 to arrange an appointment.

crash2009

"boiler drain photo"

Thanks for getting the other pictures.  I thought the "boiler drain photo" photo would show up for us to see, and point it out to you.  You guys flushed a lot of mud out of there didn't you?  Hopefully you got it cleaned up enough to get some heat last night.  There will likely be a lot of residual muck coming back to the boiler over the next few days.  You will need to clean it again.  If you learn how to "blowdown" and "skim" the boiler, and also how to maintain the wet return, you will save a lot of money and will never be without heat again.  I agree with you about hiring a professional, I would expect when I pay someone thousands that they should at least get it circulating correctly before they leave.  I have been corresponding with JPF for about a year now.  He is not a mugger coming to get you.  He is just trying to help, and he knows a lot about steam. 

Steve_210

in my opinion

that seems fair. alot of the other guys while meaning well, do not do this for a living and may not have the on site expereance

Steve_210

I was

refering to gateways post

JohnNY

Ahhh. The plot thickens.

My partner refreshed my memory a moment ago.

He (and my brother is no "kid") was in your home about a year ago for two hours and gave you a proposal for an IN8 and the necessary upgrades. You took the information in that proposal and farmed it out to the lowest bidder. (Did you mention your nephew?)



When my guys mentioned that to you last month, you claimed we were never there but we quickly produced the paperwork.



I'm afraid you've gotten as much of my time for free that you're entitled to.



I'm sorry you're having these troubles, but all I can do is wish you well.



John Cataneo, LMP

VP

Gateway Plumbing & Heating

www.GatewayPlumbing.com

Getting Steamed

Help! Desperately Seeking Solution- Recent Events

First off, in reply to Gateway, you claim the boiler repipe is wrong? How? Boiler was repiped according to Burnham specs. Are you claiming that Burnham's specs shouldn't be followed? I respectfully must conclude that you are now talking out of the other side of your mouth and just want to cover your tracks because your guys did nothing for me. If they were truly boiler pros they would at least have had some idea what my problem was. They concluded that it was the thermostat and just swapped it out. They didn't even provide the thermostat-they used mine. According to them, my problem was solved. It wasn't. I think that all the stuff you are now saying about the problem being the piping came from the threads here on The Wall. You just parroted what the other guys were telling me after your service call. If you really cared and it wasn't just about the money the guys would have mentioned that the piping was wrong as soon as they saw the boiler.They did not. The only mention of wrong piping came after they placed a phone call to you.Shame on you! And as far as your "offer" to come out again for free, pardon me if I am a non-believer as you were so hungry for an extra $44 for "overtime" charges that you demanded from me. I paid you even though when I placed the service call no mention was ever made of any "overtime" charges, just a flat fee of $250 for a service call. You can live with your own conscience, mine is clear.

Now to update, thanks for all the free advice and help from all you pros out there who love their jobs and take pride in what they do. You guys are rare indeed! I have now flushed the boiler several times and it seems to be working fine now. I will continue to drain and clean the boiler water and try to clean out whatever gunk gets into the boiler water. I will keep those of you who might actually give a darn abreast of how I am doing. Again, thanks to all!

JohnNY

Have you seen the specs?

You've got no swing joints, lady.



My guys surveyed your system, we discussed what they were looking at and they reported back to you. That's how we do it when they're looking at a mess.



You can have the last word, and I'll concede this: we definitely stopped short of spending a lot of time on your problem... once we realized where we were and the fact that you still had our proposal.



Again, good luck to you and enjoy your holidays.

jpf321

glad everything is getting better...

my visit offer still stands .. it never hurts to have another pair of eyes, even if just to explain or clarify things here on the wall .. not to mention the addition of at least part of my brain. do let us know how things move along. 

Mike Kusiak_2

No swing joints

John is correct, the piping is not to spec. The risers should not be connected directly to the header. There should be at least elbows and a length of pipe between the risers and header to absorb the expansion of the header and piping when heated. What you have is a pretty sloppy job of pipefitting.



No one wanted to break this bad news to you last night when you were having all the other problems, but nonetheless it is true.