radiant heating problem

Gordy

sip loses

Not to be confused. I stated that YOUR house on average was using about 11 btus a square foot with the size boiler you have, and the run time you gave of 3 hours, and the propane used per day.

I retract that statement because you are heating the other zones with electric heaters.



Gordy

Gordy

Your right Ironman

 I was using the input btus of 230k to his propane usage of 9 gal. per day.



His output usage is skewed with zones off which could make adjacent zones work harder.



Still would like to know the floor coverings. If they are an r value higher than bubble foil insulation the btus are going down instead of up.

broke

Hi guys

Gordy I have carpet with the styroform pad under it in all bedrooms in house tile in front of doors and wood laminante in the rest. The laminante has a 1/8 inch foam mat under it. When we first moved in we had no flooring in house but the boiler was plumbed wrong so I have no idea if I am making this worse with the flooring.

Ironman

R Value

Gordy's right. If the R value of the floor covering is higher than the bubble wrap, you're in trouble. The R value of floor covering should never exceed R-2 with radiant floors.



What about your slab's perimeter? Is It insulated? 40% of a slab's heat loss is through the perimeter.

broke

boiler

JDB my boiler must be different than your it is an ultra 230 but the front on yours must be newer mine is apox. 3 to 4 years old I dont have a screen like I think yours does my says nothing except 3 for heat and the boiler temp there is a temp. mech. temp gauge and a mech. pressure guage thats it as for the test on the return lines the boiler feeds secondary pipeing and on the sec. piping I have pumps One for each zone I have checked all the returns and they all come back the same.

broke

isulation

 I have 2 in. blue board around per. inside the slab to wall. Also someone said that by changing the water temp on the  boiler doesnt change the cons. I have changed  it many times to see if I could find the sweet spot same everyday. One thing that is puzzling me is last weekend I left It was supposed to be warm all weekend so I tured the boiler off when I got home the floor was still a little warm to the touch. If the slab was no good should it have been cold alot sooner. I havent had boiler on since then trying to fix this problem if possible so I dont burn more fuel. In Montana you cant prebuy fuel like some other states wish I could though.

Jean-David Beyer

my boiler must be different than your

It is different. Mine is an Ultra 3, and judging from its age, I infer yours is an Ultra 2. Their front panel is different, and the controls are different. But yours should be managable if you have the manuals:



Boiler Manual: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultraboilermanual.pdf



Control Supplement: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultracontrolsupp.pdf



Converting from natural gas to propane: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultranattopropane.pdf

Gordy

fly wheel effect

Your slab was charged it takes a while to get up to temp because of the mass. It also takes a while to cool off because of the mass.



No one said your slab would not work. obviously it does. Its just not as efficient with the insulation not being there.



Gordy

broke

problem

Any ideas on improving anything with system such as storage tank or any other ideas?

Gordy

Ironman

Is willing to help you see where the btus are going if you can do what he is asking in the thread above.



A side from being sure the boiler is wired, piped, and combustion set right. Sensors in the right location ect. Pumps sized correctly. 



Your commited on the emitter end of things. As far as proper slab insulation, sounds like the perimeter insulation for the slab is there if I understand you correctly.



Someone should have mentioned floor covering details, and how rvalues matter.



In the end a btu needed to heat the space is a btu that needs to be made by the boiler.

Its all about how efficiently they are made, delivered, emitted, and contained that makes the whole system truly efficient.





I think maybe what Ironman is trying to show you is in the end even though the boiler may be oversized, you would still be burning the same amount of fuel if the boiler were sized correctly. Your probably in a range of modulation where both boilers would cover the btu need.



Whether the boiler runs for 3 hours with a big one or 6 hours with a smaller one in a lower range of modulation the btus need, and made are the same aside maybe with a little condensing efficiency added with the smaller boiler.



Pics helpful if you can.



Gordy

Jean-David Beyer

Grasping at straws?

In my non-professional opinion, you should discover what the problem is before making changes. Putting in injection mixing valve without knowing what the trouble is was probably a mistake, in my opinion; you may even want it removed at some point. Similarly, why would you want a storage tank? In some systems, they are helpful to combat short cycling. But if your boiler only runs once a day, you do not have short cycling. Maybe when you get to the root of the problem and fix it, then you might find your boiler short cycles, but it is not doing that now, so it would be a waste of time and money to add one now. And it would be one more complicating factor that would hinder your discovering the real problem, whatever it is.



As Ironman suggested in his post of November 4, 2010 @ 9:07 PM, try the tests he requested. Until you get answers, there is little point changing anything. That heat must be going somewhere.

Gordy

From the begining

You need to start from the begining to get to the end of this.

First thing is a room by room Heatloaa calculation for your home. Thats always first. Guesses are headed for disaster. You should know what the heatloss is for each room, and this dictates piping centers needed, and flow rates for the loops. At this point you will determine if the radiant can handle the load itself or if supplementle heat is required example being panel rads. Decisions need to be discussed on what you will use for floor treatments at this point. Low r value carpets, and padding are a must.



Once you know your heatloss then you size the boiler. Then you know where you stand if it is all installed correctly.

But in your scenerio You will see how the boiler you have sizes up to the heatloss.



Gordy

Right now your installer guest 35 btus sf. I will bet its a lot less but a heatloss will tell.

ak907

wrong part of the thread sorry

ak907

Just a thought

Is it at all possible that the installer did not purge the lines properly/entirely??