Steam vs. Hot water vs. Air

Jamie Hall

I hope I can manage this without alienating someone... I'm sure going to try.



And first, may I state my peculiar bias: mostly I have been involved in building restoration, and often in museum level restoration.  A most peculiar field.  At the present, I am the building superintendent for a National Register estate and museum in New England.  Most of my practical experience has been with steam, but some with hot water and some with solar (both passive and active).



OK.  Lately we have been seeing a debate regarding preferences for restoring (or rehabilitating, if you will) steam systems vs. converting them to hot water systems.  We have here on the wall two interesting examples -- one an excellent conversion from steam to hot water in a church, and the other a conversion from one pipe steam to hot water in an unspecified structure.  Some have questioned the conversions -- particularly the latter -- and some have praised them.



But is there a "right" way to do it?  Can we as a group here come to a general conclusion as to the "right" way?  I don't think so.  In fact, I think if we all got together we would agree that the answer would be "it depends".  On many occasions the answer will be clear: for the building I superintend, for instance, there wasn't much question.  The original vapour steam system had been well-designed and installed in the first place, the radiators had to be kept for historic accuracy, and the only real work needed was a boiler a little more modern than the original 1920s or so H.B. Smith (although we kept the steam drum as a header) and replacing some wet returns.  Almost a no-brainer.  Another building I was peripherally involved in was 8 stories and had been constructed in 1540 or thereabouts (really).  Again, pretty close to a no-brainer -- zoned high efficiency hydronic with baseboard radiation.  But how about that church?  The use of the building had changed radically over the years, and there doesn't appear to have been a question of historical accuracy.  I might well have opted for the hydronic on that one, even though the steam was there.  Frankly, I'm not sure.



Do I have a "rule" to follow?  No... I think we have to look at the condition of the system which is there, and how well it originally met the objectives, and how much the objectives and uses have changed -- and then decide whether to restore the original system, convert using parts of the original system, tear the whole thing out and start over or ... whatever.



There are a couple of general guides, though, it seems to me.  The first is to do the best we can to meet the needs of the client and the structure.  This does not necessarily mean agreeing with the client on how, but it does mean understanding the desired final result and doing the best we can to get there.  The second is to make as professional a decision as we can on the best way to do that.  We are all naturally biased towards the methods and approaches we know best -- but we have a real responsibility to recommend the best solution for the problem to hand, even if it isn't an approach we would usually use -- and, in the event that it is one we are really unfamiliar with (such as, for most of us on the wall, forced air!) recommend another professional to the client.



Do I make any sense at all?

DanHolohan

Yes, you make sense.

And lots of it. Thanks, Jamie.

Steamhead

Well, if we never questioned anything

where would we be?



Certainly not here.



Think of all the "ways we always did it" that are no longer- such as pumping toward expansion tanks, piping hot-water boilers directly to the system without bypasses or primary-secondary piping, cranking pressures up on steam systems- the list goes on. The only reason anything changed is because someone questioned something.



Likewise, think of some products and techniques that were "new and improved" when they came out, and were later found to not be so hot. We all know some of the names involved. Again, these were questioned and found wanting. But some others- like the Spirovent and similar air separators, flame-retention oil burners, probe-type low-water cutoffs- have proven themselves and are now widely accepted.



The day we stop questioning is the day we die, either physically or spiritually. Those of us who frequent the Wall are very much alive in this respect, and this is one of the main reasons I come here so often.

Timco

conversions

I think any older system can be pulled out...to any extent...and be made more efficient. Is this good for the earth? Yes. But is this always the best option for the customer? How long will they live in the house? How long will they live? (I have a 92 yr old customer) Is it always needed? A customer is sometimes very set on an option, but not always very educated. I had a customer ask for a price for a top mod con when he wanted to hook it up to a HX that heated the house that used all poly b piping. Do you suppose the boiler side of the HX would actually condense for more than 2 minutes? It seems like the customer needs to make the decision on how to pay...up front with a conversion or over time in a higher gas bill...but will they ever make the investment back on a conversion? Obviously faster if the boiler is 1910 era. as for the other two posts, seems much debate is system and radiator integrity. Hats off to the guys who have never had a rad leak as many have. I will add that Scott's conversion was beautiful work, and I did not mention that previously.  My opinion is skewed by working on old systems in old homes where the owner wants historic preservation and I am proud to offer it and really dig steam but also respect the newest innovations. Last, steam has far fewer moving parts and chances of failure. Far more service on new systems than older / steam systems.



Tim

Brian_19

Agree

I agree with Jamie's comments. I hope in the future when this topic comes up again, and it will, we can respond rationally. It does none of us any good to scare someone with claims of leaking radiators and salivating lawyers.

 Keep in mind many of the folks who view these post may be a potential  customer for some of us. It would be a shame to lose a nice job because of such harsh claims.

 

Steamhead

Uhhhh, Brian

There are several of us who have encountered that very thing, as has been stated before. To not bring it up would be a disservice to our customers. 

Mark Eatherton

This battle will most probably NEVER end....

Having been an active member of this site from the day it was first brought on line, I can say that without a doubt, opinions will always differ as to the best means, manner and methodology of providing comfort, and bottom line, we are ALL in the comfort business, no? The one good thing tho, is that when these disputes pops up, I learn something, as hopefully most people do.



Some of the brightest minds in steam, forced air and hydronic heating come here on a regular basis, and each one of them holds dearly the trade they have chosen to perform. Some of these people understand and do it all. Steam, hydronics, AND forced air.



T'was a time, not too far back, that forced air was considered the ENEMY. If someone showed up at this site and asked a forced air question, they would have been flamed into non existence.



My good friend Robert Bean changed all that in my minds eye by making me realize, that in order to deliver full spectrum comfort, a person MUST move air. It doesn't have to deliver the heat, but it is a necessary component to delivering comfort, and I think that most people attending this site understand that principal.



When it comes to steam, so FEW technicians understand ALL of the nuances that come with each system, and out of pure frustration resort to sawzall surgery to rectify the situation by converting it to something they understand, that being hydronics.



Our gracious host has put many daughters through school, and weddings trying to correct that ignorance, and people like Frank, Gerry, Terry, Mad Dog and their respective partners (and who ever else I forgot to mention by name...) make a living out of undoing what the unknowing knuckleheads have done over the years. As Dan is wont to say, doing one stupid thing will cause you to do two or more stupid things...



I envy these guys for their knowledge base, and give them accolades for sharing their experiences and knowledge in this format.



And this battle of trying to educate people as to the correct install, set up and operate and trouble shoot these beautiful steam systems will NEVER end, so long as steam is alive. Their jobs are not in jeopardy. Some of these guys have even been known to install steam/vapor systems in NEW HOUSES (GASP!!!) Why would they do something that crazy? Because they knew what they were doing, and it works like a champ.



Heck, I've been doing what I've been doing for over 35 years, and every time I step into a steam boiler powered mechanical room, I have to start all over again, thinking out loud, "Steam and air con not occupy the same space at the same time, and in order for steam to flow, there MUST be a pressure differential, and on and on..."



AM I intimidated by some of these systems, HECK YEAH, especially the ones that have been knuckle headed and bastardized. The only people I know who WOULDN'T be intimidated by these systems are the same people I just mentioned, and to step into one of those rooms with any one of those guys would be a dream come true. The ULTIMATE educational experience. Can't tell you how many times I almost flew Frank or Dan out to Colorado to explain to me what it was that I was looking at, and how it was SUPPOSED to be working...



As for me, my preference has always been hydronics, but that is because I have a good handle and understanding of that technology. But early on, before I discovered the Lost Art of Steam Heating, my first thought was to rip it all (steam) out and convert it to hydronics. Fortunately, I only did it once or twice, and in both cases, keeping it steam was not an option due to relocation of mechanical packages, basement remodeling, etc..



So, in short (guess its too late for that eh...) we will always agree to disagree, and we will always continue to learn from the masters, right wrong or indifferent.



Thanks to all for teaching and sharing, and treating each other with the respect each other deserves.



ME

Brian_19

Frank

There are also even more of us who have not encountered that very thing. It is a disservice to the trade to make statements like "when one of your conversions goes bad- and it will" or "if the radiators don't leak they will".

Timco

Claims???

Wow, you sure are something, Brian. Claims? Can you be any more disrespectful and ignorant of my real life experiences? Get over it. I had a 1-pipe steam radiator leak when it was converted to hot water...it happened. Is there any particular reason you doubt this and the others with similar experiences?



Tim

Charlie from wmass

well said

The thing people forget is the answer is often "It depends" I will work on converted systems I just will not onvert one if I can make the steam work. I also know that the warm air systems have there place ( not in my house). Humidity control for special enviroments is hard to do with steam.

Tim McElwain

Ever learning

but never coming to the full knowledge of the truth. We learn by doing things never done before and then wait for someone smarter than we are to say you did a good job.



I have been outside the box so many times that I get bored when I have to get back in the box.



At 70 years old this November 30 I am still having fun with all of this.

Dennis

I am guilty as charged!

Two years ago I converted a Gothic nightmare of a steam system to a zoned hot water system. The church was the one I have attended for 25 years, serving as head of the property committee for 10 years.



I will be forgiven for this terrible sin, I was justified as many evildoers preceded my arrival.

The system once a vacuum system had been adapted, the vacuum pump had been exorcised, but would not fit past the boiler so there is lay in limbo. An undersized boiler feed system had be jammed behind the boiler a Number 94 Weil Mclain firing 3.5 million btus of NG.

But the scene was much worse some demon had cut away the top corner of the boiler jacket to make room for a 500K btu tube in shell heat exchanger as a zone to heat the new school building with hot water fin tube. Everything was given a nice thick coat of asbestos over a chicken wire base frame.



Normal operation consisted of 1/2 hour of banging from the depths of hell, followed by 50 gallons of rusty water spurting out of the feed tank vent. This noise was regarded as a sweet chorus of angels proving the system was in fact working and soon to provide heat. Which in most cases did not happen, requiring the pastor to venture into the depths of hell to push the reset button.



Later that same pastor saw a lost sheep at a theater in Pennsylvania, he too had been dragged along by his wife. After finding out that I was the owner of a local HVAC company, lived near his church and was looking for a church to attend, quickly invited me to attend all without letting the cat out of the bag.



Later after becoming a member of this church I was sent on a crusade to slay the dragon in the boiler room. Number 94 and I had a long relationship, mostly of slapping on patches as the elders of the church did not believe in spending money at all.



I was able to quiet the banging from hell, with knowledge from The Lost Art of Steam Heating, I lowered the steam pressure from 15 psi to 3 psi. The pastor no longer had to push the little red button on the primary control, as I found out he was first reseting all of the safety controls as well. He had been instructed by a previous heating tech, that it was how the system was supposed to work. The problem was an out of level mercury control, that baby would vibrate causing the mercury to just move away from the contacts but not enough to trip the reset lever. Just enough to cause the primary to lock out on a break in the signal from the low gas pressure control.



There were trumpets from heaven when the little red button behaved itself.



Well all that fresh water did its job, finally rotting out all the wet returns, most of which where buried in the walls and floors.



I informed the elders the replacement of the returns would be more money than they had saved pinching pennies for the previous 90 years. There was great wailing and gnashing of the teeth.

As the Lord provides one of the elders died, he had changed his will requiring his estate to deliver a sizable sum to the church under the condition the church use it to replace the heating system, with one of my choosing.

I was also required to consider extreme penny pinching in the design and install of the new system.



My penny pinching idea was to reuse the steam supply piping, and the dry returns. These were reconfigured in a reverse return arrangement for the office areas.

The sanctuary piping was also reused, a challenge as it was encased in thick layer of asbestos. The steam main was 4 inch black pipe, but the dry return ended as 1 1/2 inch pipe, a challenge to figure the pump size. We removed the drips, the elements from the steam traps and the seats, drilled the rads for air vents.



Believe it or not only one radiator in the sanctuary had a leak, which some previous genius had fixed by drilling a hole in the floor under the radiator and fitting a copper funnel into. No problem the condensate just dripped into the crawl space for the last 90 years.



The school was a bigger problem, built in the 1960's , the hot water lines from the heat exchanger were buried 8 feet underground, had developed a health leak. Either way they had been cast into the concrete slab.

Weil Mclain Ultra to the rescue, installed in the pump room, which lacked a drain and a water supply to fill the boiler, but we had two 2.5 inch lines from the boiler room in the main building. One to carry a pvc condensate drain, and the other to carry a pex water line.



The church lost a steam system but gained a 80% fuel savings, and when from an average $8000 in maintenance to $500.



The main system is three cast iron Dunkirk boilers totaling 700k btus, with a staged reset controller. The 75 gallon gas water heater was replaced with a 40 gallon Triangle Tube DWH.



To pinch every last penny, I made all of the manifolds with my T Drill.

One of the elders knew a scrap guy who took the boiler out for free for the scrap.

The asbestos on the boiler was removed by the pros, I don't want to die a miserable death after working this long.



I hope God is not a fan of steam.

Jamie Hall

Dennis --

I love your story!  As someone else said above, the answer to what to do is so often "it depends"!  And when a system -- of any kind -- has been as mangled as the one you describe, very often the only thing to do is start all over from scratch.  But you did have me chuckling!

ScottMP

May I just say

I have never seen a steam repair on this site where myself or others questioned the company's intentions as far as the customers best interest or the integrity of the work.

I posted a picture of a renovation from steam to hot water and half praised the workmanship while the others questioned whether I had informed the customers of all the alternatives. Was I aware that with out proper maintenance that the customer would not see a proper R.O.I. 

These comments, that are read by potential customers, insinuated that my company and myself might not have done the right thing for the customer... with out having ANY understanding of the particulars of the job.

Some comments even stated that the job Would have problems. No Question.

I would say that it was not very professional and certainly calls into questions others agenda.

Scott







 

Steamhead

You don't mention

how much less fuel it used after the red-button problem was solved and before the returns rotted out. Care to elaborate? 

Steamhead

Oh, it happens

and we've also had some who ask why a mod-con was not used on a hot-water boiler replacement, if a cast-iron boiler was installed. Sure we ask some hard questions- that's why we're here. But as long as there's no malice, I don't have a problem with it.

Dennis

RE: you don't mention

SteamHead, fixing the red button caused the utility bill to skyrocket, believe it or not some folks did not have a problem with the pastor reseting the primary each morning at 5 am, and on Sunday morning at 2 am. It was the ultimate reset controller.



I would bet when the system was a vacuum system it was very efficient, bet before the hacks beat this system up, it was fine art. The original congregation was made up of the who's who of Philadelphia robber baron's, to be an original member one had to be on the social registry.



I will tell you that in lowering the steam pressure to 3 psi the boiler room temperature was reduced by 50%. It is hard to remember but the treasurers report showed a sizable reduction in the utility bills, but this was offset by repairs.



The system just did not work as designed, because of the massive changes to the original system, failure was engineered in with these changes.

The school building should have had it own boiler, this would have eliminated the need to zone the old building, from the new building.

The older part of the building was more less vacant during the week, the steam was great as the radiators and piping contained no water, to freeze.



Installing a heat exchanger to heat the new building required the zoning of the entire system to keep steam from heating both areas. Imagine running a 3.5 million steam boiler with a 20 inch breach to heat a building that I am now heating with an Ultra boiler firing 250k.



The only figure I can give you is the reduction in the overall gas bill, from when the system was operating in the screwed up condition as it was altered.

The gas bill was $10K in February of that year , and the next year in the same month it was $2700. I do not see the actual bills, what I see is the payments made by the treasurer on his report, but if you like I can ask him to see if he still has the actual bills.



I will tell you that it is rare to see all three boilers firing at the same time even on the worst days.

I was also able to add more zoning to the system and add radiation to areas that could not be heated with the old system. These areas were below the original water line of the boiler, bathrooms in the basement.



The system as it was dropped into my lap, was dysfunctional, but don't get me wrong

I would have saved it if it made some fiscal sense to to so.



As to why I did not install modcons in the old building, well you have to think long term when you do churches. The cast iron boilers will have a much longer life cycle and the maintenance will be minimal, compared to the modcons. The cast iron boilers have vent dampers and electronic ignition making them 82% AFUE, they will basically stay in this state with little maintenance. I cannot say the same for the modcons.

The old building is made up of high temperature zones, and a DWH. The new building was over radiated with commercial fin tube, and there is no DWH to deal with so a modcon was the way to go, beside the new building has no chimney.



I have a customer in the suburbs of Philadelphia, she has a vapor system, it still has the original boiler from the 1800's. It was converted to oil sometime in the 1940's. I gave this boiler a new lease on life with the replacement of all the internals in the steam traps, and the replacement of a few of the pack-less radiator valves which had cracked bellows. The little old lady who owns this ancient system was delighted that her bill was reduced, all of her rooms now had heat and dirty water was no longer squirting out to the vent above her boiler.

It is just amazing of how well the original system has held up.

But fuel must have been just about free when this unit was first installed, the original radiator in the garage is still hooked up and working, it has to be 30 feet long. The old bitty likes the built in snow melt system for her car. She keeps the garage a toasty 75 degrees.

Charlie from wmass

Dennis this is a story of where it reaches a breaking point.

I know every steam system is not worth saving. I also know that one pipe steams were installed to pinch pennies not to provide the best of heat. Gravity hot water was the most efficient heat they had for fuel usage in those days. The size of the distribution piping and engineering to make them work well was more money than to install steam. I stand by my reluctance to convert a steam rad to hot water. Simply because if they were not maintained then they were not maintained. I have just gone through a string of hot water rads that leaked after being sand blasted and refinished by an unnamed expert. The person did a great job and stood by his warranty. I can ask no more of him. What I found was the rads had been brazed many years back. maybe even from the day they were made. When they were cleaned up the brazing fell off and they leaked. This is why we for years took out old rads and simply scrapped them. It was new or nothing for many years. Do we use old rads now? yes we do. have I had to use dual purpose rads for hot water? yes I have. Do I pressure test them for longer and higher than I need to? You better believe it. We always need to measure what can we do to what needs to be done to what the customer can afford. Many steam systems just need a little love. I have seen heating system of every ilk that simply needed a Saw-Zall. While I understand the desire to reuse the steam parts I would try many different approaches to not use them. I am sure you will not get introuble with the all mighty for removing that steam system. To good heat where you can find it.