37 zones of radiant heat...(JohnNY)

JohnNY

C'mon, Rick ...

Don't you think on a project like this we've already thought of extension cords with lights on the ends????

Like no duh.

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Rick_92

No.......................

................I'm schizophrenic.

(The only way I could spell it was copying from your post)

JohnNY

Thanks, Rick.

I appreciate your support.

The most disturbing post in this thread is derhestmeister saying he "would have Turned the job down" if he had to install it like this. I know he's serious.

That's rich. I'll just tell my guys I had a half-million dollar job on the table that would've kept 3-4 guys working for 8 months, but I let it go and they can go home because I'm standing on principle about the pumping configuration.

That way I could feel good about myself.

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Brad White_191

Paul, the

drawings, depending on the level of service, are usually diagrammatic but of course everything has to work and fit. That is not where the "vague" terminology applies, no sir!

The "means and methods" part goes to the specifications part of a design package and specifically the execution. That is where we tread lightly and defer to manufacturer's recommendations and to best trade practices. Yes, it does put the onus on the installing contractor, for that is what installing contractors do, (last I checked ).

Details.. Ah, hit a spot with me. A certain engineering firm I know has details, mind you standard details which show up on nearly every job, that are both conflicting or just wrong. One I love is a condensate pump with the check valves and flow arrows on the check valves, pointing back toward the pump....

My in-house job (each shareholder has one in addition to normal duties) is to maintain and develop details and if I have my way, the specifications. I also do in-house training but finding time is the issue there...

Rick_92

Yes

We do what we have to do. I like to think that the $ from the outrageous and ridiculous mcmansions allow me to give my other regular customers a decent job at a reduced rate.

Always thought a good name for my shop might have been RH Plumbing & Heating.

(Robin Hood Plumbing & Heating)

Rick_91

Be nice

elite guy. be nice

Rick_91

Hey Home Depot Employee.

I don't come into the big orange box on nights, weekends and holidays and hassle you while you are counting roofing nails. Why you gotta bother a hard working guy with an actual career, jealous? I can certainly understand why. After all, who wouldn't want a full time job. Stop being a part time loser on a full time basis!

Jim Bennett

Nice work!

John,

Glad you didn't let the Boneheads get to you. I see a well laid out, professional job.

Solder joints are beautiful! Your mechanics do nice clean work.

Most of the critics here are hiding behind dummy email addresses. Very Brave.

Please don't let them dissuade you from posting future job pics.

Nice work,

Jim

Home Depot Employee

Most pros here know my Home Depot name is a joke, I didn't expect you to get it.

tim smith

John, as someone else said, thanks for going out on a limb

and posting the great looking work. I know you probably thought about it ahead of time that there would be flack about the "slightly" over pumped system but hey, you still posted it and hopefully you don't feel to overwhelmed with the fall out. I will say, I would not have turned down the job but, I mean but I would have made sure there was documented communication about the questionable oversizing of pumps. The problem with spec'd out jobs is that there is a little blurb in the design docs that say's all designs to be field verfied and if discrepancies are found, they are to be brought up to designer for review. Well, that little email I would send them would require a reply and I would have done my job and he would have to respond and if he said no do it that way, it's all on him now. All can be polite but no gray area then. No questions. If you do not document then they can put it backi on you. Tim

Unknown

5000 hour runtime ? Typical year ?

Where's that ? On Pluto ?

5000 hours is 209 days .

Running 24 hours for each of those 209 days . And we all know it's a proven fact all circs run contantly all day long . Temps are never satisfied indoors , even on the mild winter days

Tell us where a circ runs constantly for 209 days a year in North America , CY .

It certainly isn't in NYC .

Dan C.

pumps

If I could get a job like that right now I would put in 37 of these (see picture below)if they told me to. Especially if I had that many people who's mortgage payment depended on me getting work in this economy.

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Unknown

Amazing work

I wouldn't let the anonymous cowardly douches get under your skin .

Be proud of this project . I definitely would .

JohnNY

Thanks, Tim

Yeah, we actually had countless conversations and several site meetings about this job.
It's not a small amount of money at stake so every single detail of the job was scrutinized a hundred times. Believe me.
No one has to tell me how to protect myself through a contract. I'm well aware of the process.

Sometimes the job is the job.

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JohnNY

Thanks, Ron.

From you, that means a lot.

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Dan Foley

Workmanship

JohnNY,

When you post photos of your work here, you will never please everyone. There are always the negative types who take pot shots at your work. It is funny how they never post photos of their work.....

Keep up the great work. I know the pressure of having to make payroll for 18 people every Friday. Your employees are relying on you to make the tough calls that affect everyone in your company. Keep your chin high - you have much to be proud of! - DF

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tim smith

John, I am sure you are better than I in these contract issues

I just wanted to say what you probably already knew. Again, looks like a great job and yes we all do need to keep our guy's busy and that's a great one for that. Tim

Leo G_103

Hey JohnNY

WOW!

Leo G

Mad Dog_2

NO GUTS NO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU Armchair Quarter backs REALLY make me laugh. You remind me of the so called football experts...you know the guys that know it all....know every stat including what size jock Namath wore in the '69 Superbowl....what kind of razor the barber used to get Johnny U's Flat top just so....yeah you know the type....they are at EVERY bar and every Superbowl party... These same "experts" after a little questioning stopped playing football after they broke a collar bone in the 7th grade....or better yet NEVER even played.....'uh well....we used to play in the street.' Most of You'll hide behind pseudonyms OR NEVER seem to show us here at The Wall YOUR!!!!!!! work. Constructive criticism THIS IS NOT....you are lambasting a really good man with a great company....Gateway's in the Big Leagues Boys...NYC...getting the nice jobs and contracts...what are YOU doing? Lets see YOUR work for CRITIQUE!!!!!! We ALL have alot to learn and on each job we aim higher. Some of the effite, elitist heating snobs here will have us think that ALL their work is Magazine-quality...they only do....(fill in the blanks), or This or that product. That's bull. I, and I'm sure Johnny NY have no problem with Legit critcism from a legit source:
Real name, real email, and someone who HAS and CAN do better, i.e., SHOW US SOME PICS......NOW!!!!! I can't WAIT To see what you can come up with. Mad Dog

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Unknown

circ run time

Hi Ron jr.
I have a site with 27 buildings with 12 apartments each, with Taco 1600 circulators that run 24-7 365 days a year.

These are fan coil units, specifically two pipe Whalen units that constantly run hot water through the loops from September 15 to June 15, then run chilled water through the loops during the summer.

Rick_91

Doesn't make you any less

of a ****. You probably are unemployed, ****

Unknown

I think you could agree

a setup like that is the exception to the rule ?

If it was heating only , like on the job that John showcased , how many hours would your circs run ? Figuring warm weather shutdown times , of course .

Jim K in PA

Great thread

I am mostly a lurker here, but post occasionally. This thread certainly has brought out the "Rainbow" of comments (no sexual orientation offenses intended).

At great personal risk, I confess to being of the engineer persuasion, albeit without the "P"rince "E"gghead after my name. I learned pipe fitting long before I learned about Boyle's Law. There are a lot of flavors of engineers, and most that I respect learn as much as they prea . . . I mean teach.

The pump angle? Feh. They're fine. Right between the "normal" orientation and the "allowed" orientation (does that make them biangular?). Anyway, from an ME point of view, the thrust loading should be near neutral with the stated system pressure. Then again, my opinion on this is as relevant as Britney Spears'.

My only "advice" for JohnNY is with respect to the changes he convinced the original PE were necessary. Document them with ECOs to CYA. I have worked in the forensic engineering field for over 20 years, and a LACK of documentation is often far more damaging than an abundance of it. If there are problems with the system later on, and fingers start to get pointed, any changes from the original design will be YOUR changes, regardless of what the original designer agreed to, unless you can prove that he/she concurred with the changes.

I hope you use a yellow extension cord - LOL (loved that).

Jim K

hot_rod

No question

the workmanship, planning and installation is first class. The installers should get a raise, at least a dinner. It's nice to see the big smile on a job well done.

If John explained his case regarding the wall o pumps, and the engineer made the call for the GC and owner, so be it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't always make him drink The engineer may not be aware of delta p pumping, or perhaps not comfortable with the concept?

The point for me is not the electrical consumption, which if it is controlled with outdoor reset control could be pretty much constant pump operation when temperatures drop below 68F.

The bigger issue the engineer may not realize is the amount of work accomplished for the energy consumed.

On a good day mid to high 20% efficiencies for wet rotor circs (wire to water) If some circs are running way off curve they may be turning 10% or less of the electrical energy into fluid movement. That's where it starts to look silly.

At the end of the day, I'm sure the building will be comfortable, and a show case for "Americanized hydronics" the engineer will smile, knowing this.

hr

Unknown

Question

Let's say you've done your homework, all your pumps are sized correctly and run intermittently as the heat load requires. How would the breaking down of the electrical load into small pumps compare in usage to a single pump with zone valves set on delta P? Wouldn't it be somewhat comparable?

BTW, I see Johnny used the new Taco wireless pumps. Sweet!

Unknown

NPSH

Cavitation will be the issue that will just never go away. Net Positive Suction Head. Shame on Taco if they were involved.

Rollie Peck_3

Many pump job

John:

Since you are the only one that knows the history and the details of this job, I'm curious to know how many pumps
and/or zone valves you would have used if you had designed
this job.

Over 5000 square feet for three people! Such waste.

Rollie Peck

Homeowner

Mad Dog_2

Its VERY easy to knock John from the Stadium seats.........

John, like many of us here is "IN THE ARENA" ...in The GREATEST City in the world too! Go get another bag o' peanuts guys...You done good John! That which does not kill us....(including these ninnys) makes us stronger. Mad Dog

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Charlie from wmass

Job was well done and yet another debate over engineer ideals and actual real world engineering. I am sure if John had more say in the design the engineer would have made less money as it would not have looked as impressive. As far as pump orientation goes it is in the installation instructions as being OK. You know the paper that Taco puts in each box is not packing material. Cavitation is only going to be an issue if the pumps are all on at once, and they have room to pump away full flow.

Unknown

Shaft Orientation of Wet Rotor Pumps

Fellow Wallies, I have been following this post with great interest. Regarding the orientation of the shaft of a wet rotor circulator, here’s the deal…

All of us wet rotor manufacturers require the motor shaft to be horizontal under normal instances – the reason being if installed vertically up any air that is in all H20 accumulates up to the outboard sleeve bearing (bearing farthest away from the impeller). Taco states in their I/O vertical is ok if the system pressure is 20 PSI or higher (and we at WILO make a wet rotor vertical multi-stage booster – repeat vertical). The reason vertical is OK is the higher pressure forces the air back into suspension (I sold Taco for 8 years back in the 70’s).

I quote the Taco I/O manual 001-934 “Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa).”

Will a below 20 PSI vertical installation reduce the life of a wet rotor pump? Depends (always a depends). The less air there is in the system, lower system and motor temps, less fresh make up water, higher inlet pressure, pump location etc the lower the risk of a vertically mounted circ failure (see explanation above). Will a 45 deg installation cause premature failures? Doubtful, but (there is always one of those too) if any wet rotor circs have outboard bearing failures installed at 45 deg that would be the first thing I would consider as the cause of the failure (especially if re-occurring). But if it ain't broke, don't fix it (if they don't fail in a few months all should be OK).

Regarding the project – the workmanship is fantastic.

Unknown

Shaft Orientation of Wet Rotor Pumps

Fellow Wallies, I have been following this post with great interest. Regarding the orientation of the shaft of a wet rotor circulator, here’s the deal…

All of us wet rotor manufacturers require the motor shaft to be horizontal under normal instances – the reason being if installed vertically up air that is in all H20 accumulates up to the outboard sleeve bearing (bearing farthest away from the impeller). Taco states in their I/O vertical is ok if the system pressure is 20 PSI or higher (and we at WILO make a wet rotor vertical multi-stage booster – repeat vertical). The reason vertical is OK is the higher pressure forces the air back into suspension (I sold Taco for 8 years back in the 70’s).

I quote the Taco I/O manual 001-934 “Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa).”

Will a below 20 PSI vertical installation reduce the life of a wet rotor pump? Depends (always a depends). The less air there is in the system, lower system and motor temps, less fresh make up water, higher inlet pressure, pump location etc the lower the risk of a vertically mounted circ failure (see explanation above). Will a 45 deg installation cause premature failures? Doubtful, but (there is always one of those too) if any wet rotor circs have outboard bearing failures installed at 45 deg that would be the first thing I would consider as the cause of the failure (especially if re-occurring). But if it ain't broke, don't fix it (if they don't fail in a few months all should be OK).

Regarding the project – the workmanship is fantastic.

Unknown

Cavitation

Cavitation will result from a 30 gpm circ running on a 3/4" piece of pipe doing 2 to 4 gpm serving a little zone of radiant floor. And in a header application you are pumping away from nothing. Hope the static fill pressure is up there as high as possible.

JohnNY

MORE PICS FROM EVIL PUMP JOB

Pressurizing with air to check for leaks.

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JohnNY

I'm bringing this back up because my father wants to see it.

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Jed_2

I'm finally responding

All of this "hot air armchair analysis" means squat. NOBODY picked up on your statement of FACT that this hydronic heating system IS a very expensive "back-up". So, the question becomes; What is the probability risk of this system being employed? You didn't say it was supplemental, but back-up. Being that it is a back-up system, what are the conditions required to bring this system on-line and for how long? What are the emitters for this system, hi-head fan coil units. I don't recall you mentioning what radiation these circs are servicing.

Your work is obviously great, but this "back-up" issue has me stumped. What is the anticipated run time of this system?

Jed

Evil lution

Pumping you up

Checked the Taco Installation PDF files. It does not say it is ok to mount any of their pumps at a 45 degree. I would think if you could do that Taco would have put it in there installation instructions. Just a thought.

Page 5 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-359.pdf

Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-232.pdf

Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-226.pdf

Page 2 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-147.pdf

What I do know is that calling the manufacture with questions that sometimes their word is not gospel. Sometimes they aren't sure but they won't tell you that. They will guess. And what do they care. 3 years from now if the pump burns out because of the way it was mounted do you think you're going to remember the persons name or do your think the sales rep is going to say, " OOps! I did tell you that here let me replace all those pump for free." HELL NO!!!

Scary

JohnNY

Has this been bothering you, Todd?

I'm pretty ok with it and evidently so is the President of Taco and the Technical Support department.

It's really not that "scary" at all.

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clammy

Ball Busters

Hey John we may have our diffences and every one can argue that this or that ain,t right ,either way you did the job not every one has the same methods but the main thing is you did the work as speced ,you kept your crews working while the ecomony is dead and completed the job as it was proposed.What the hell all these complaining people probalbly could not even get the chance to bid on a job that size ,myself included.Hats off to you for getting the work ,getting it done ,keeping your guys working .To all who with there complaining have kept this post going get a life and give the guy a break your probalby all jeolous that you have never had a chance to bid a job that big and if you have never done speced work from a ME or tryed to change a ME design you would find yourself looking for some thing else for your crews to do.They design we just install as they say there the one with letters at the end of there names not us.Try changing the mind of a ME for any military sub contractors facilities you will probalbly be sitting st the curb wondering what happened.Again john you and i have had differences in the past and we still may not see eye to eye but damn can't you guys give the dude some credit i do .Great job and it's done every bodies happy but some people can't let anything rest ,i do peace and good luck clammy

Mad Dog_2

What's scary is the excessive timeTacoma Todd has on

his hands to nitpick legit and honorable contractors. Hey Todd....I have an idea.......SHUT US ALL UP: Post some pictures of all the fine and varied work you have done over the years either as an installer and/or contractor. Until YOU present us with that and endure OUR scrutiny...YOUR 'opinion means nuthin' (As John Cougar Mellencamp sang). We're waiting TODD......Mad Dog

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Cam_2

This get's my vote for Post of the year

It was fun, educational, emotional and got everybody talking! I'm sure JohnNY laughed all the way to the bank! Nice job!
Fantastic pictures!