37 zones of radiant heat...(JohnNY)

JohnNY

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JohnNY

You guys need to get over yourselves.

Seriously, a Bronx cheer to all you negative people.

This post is about workmanship and I'm happy with what I'm showing.


(why can't I get this post to go to the bottom?)

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Derheatmeister

\"A man convinced agains his will,is of the same opinion still\"

Auguring with you will only make you "hate me"

Time will tell and the maintenance/energy waste will be a very big factor in this equation!

Personally if i was approached by some "Mechanical Engineer" that spec's this i would have tried to explain why not to do this (IN WRITING with the flow rates and a zone report/ heat loss) if he did not change this i would have been "Stubborn" and would have Turned the job down by :Thank's but no thanks!again not verbal and CC to all that are involved!!!

If you do not want to Argue with the "Mechanical Engineer" i bet that someone from Wilo/Grundfoss can do the Calc's and the "Talk" next time and help "Educate" the "Engineer"
(Sorry that Taco do not have this Technology yet. but i hear that they just added Innovex to the Equation which is very good )

Just remember that even the people and especially the people that have this kind of money did not get were they are by being "wasteful"

The "green wave" is finally here and it is time to get on that wave and ride it!
Sorry, for the criticism, NO bad ill intended..Richard :-]

tim smith

John, I too understand that you were under the knife with

engineers doing the design. You do have to be political and you cannot embarass the engineer or you pay some consequences that are not long term healthful for your company. But what a shame they feel that "bigger is better" I think it's called large pump syndrome.

Unknown

more diplomatically, if you install something, even if it's to spec, and it's wrong... can it come back on you as the installer?

I think up here in Maine the line is kind of fuzzy and there is some expectation on the installer to also do "due diligence" but I'm not clear on the details.

I will second the fact that most engineers seem to think that pump sizing stops at 1 HP and that if 10 GPM is good, 20 is better. I won't fault anyone for not pooping where they eat, but it's hard, hard, hard to keep a still tongue with some of the stuff out there with PE stamps on them.

Home Depot Employee

Holy overcirc Batman

Less pumps then the PE desired?

This will be the engineers last radiant job no doubt

Johnny will be seeing those circs twice, first in pictures, second back at manufacturer as "warranty claims"

Brad White_203

Ayuh.

As I have often said, I have learned a lot more from the folks holding wrenches than the people along side me holding pencils.

But when push comes to shove, if it is a design issue, the engineer is responsible.

If it is under-par technical installation but conforms to the documents, the contractor is responsible. (The engineer cannot tighten the bolts after all, nor dictate means and methods.)

That is a fuzzy area, aka, "due diligence", that is a catch-all standard that can be used to widen the net pending litigation. The "standard of care" is not one of perfection which does not exist. But "due diligence" implies that everyone has some skin in the game and so get dragged along.

Paul Pollets

Wow!!

Is there a reason for so many pumps? Is it a 50,000 + SF building? Tilting the motor shaft on the pumps 45 degrees is a no-no. The pipefitting is excellent, but I'd seriously question the system design and pumping strategy. Seems to be a prime example of "overpumping"...

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JohnNY

What is the problem with tilting the pump motor?

The book says it can be vertical if the system pressure is 20psi. I'm going to be very close to that here and I'm not vertical.

Once again, it's not my place or intention to defend the design.

The workmanship is mine. If there's a problem in execution, let me know what it is.




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Rick_91

JohnNY what were you thinking?

You are getting defensive when you had to know this would happen. The pumps are grossly over-sized, there's 37 zones of radiant in a 4000 sq/ft house. You stated "efficiency wasn't the goal here" The pumps are mounted incorrectly, they are going to roar when the system is operational, the pumps will probably burn up from dead heading. One Wilo ECO from Patriot Supply (not too far from you) and zone valves would do the job. Did they build a 1200 sq/ft closet for the manifolds? Your Delta T will maybe one degree. And most of all please post that picture of the inside wall that has 37 freaking thermostats mounted on it. This is just horrible. A fellow New Yorker, we should know better.

JohnNY

It's actually over 6,000 square feet.

Somebody tell me the problem with how the pumps are mounted.

Nobody here has ANY IDEA what's going on outside of the boiler room in these pictures yet everyone wants to tell me about my DeltaT and that my pumps are "grossly oversized".
Why would the pumps dead head?

Anyway...I'll say it again...it's not my design.





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JohnNY

About the pump angle....

I just spoke to tech support at Taco.

They said there is "No issue." with installing the pumps this way.




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Home Depot Employee

Installation Bullet #1

"Circulator motor must be mounted in horizontal position, It may......."

Entrained air will sit in the domes, even if pressures in the system get to 20 PSI + after operation time, the circs cartridges will run with encapsulated air until pressure rises.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-054.pdf

Rick_92

Pump Angle

If these circ pumps will work with the motors in the verticle position above the impellers AND they work in the way they are mounted in most situations (with the motor in the horizontal postion) THEN any thinking person could conclude that these pumps you have mounted on this job will be fine.

JohnNY, don't sweat all the BS from the many negative comments from those that are posting here. They are just jealous because you have had the opportunity to do such a great project.

Those pumps look great and will work fine.

Rick_91

What size boiler(s) are on this job

Just curious?

Rick_92

YES!

Just as I thought.

You will now start a trend that will take over the entire hydronics world.

No more boring pumps just sitting there in a "horizontal" orientation.

These guys look like they are locked and loaded and ready for anything.

Rick_92

Entrained Air

Home Depot Dude-

Maybe you should check between your ears.

You might have some entrained air there.

Try standing on your head.

JohnNY

Empire State Charlie

You're really someone else posting anonymously I see.

Why is that?

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Paul Pollets

Brad---But...

The engineer is dictating the "means and the method". Unfortunately for the building, the system design is not correct. When I've worked on mechanicals designed by an engineering firm and notice piping errors, I advise the engineer and the GC of the corrections required. I've never been told not to make the corrections. I was recently hired to fix the engineered boiler design of a large facility where in each of seven buildings there were serious errors. The biggest error was the circ pumps were oversized by 400-600%. The engineering firm also made the same mistakes in the design and specifcations of the current (2) buildings we're doing. I can assure you they won't be hired again. BTW, this is a national engineering firm.

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Rich L.

Bid and Spec work

I do plenty of bid and spec work for engineers. It seems like a lot of them around here are stuck on the same equipment they used 20 years ago. I politely suggest what I believe to be a better way to do it and try to have documentation in hand when doing so. I've yet to have one take my suggestions. They have the initials behind their name and I don't. I can deal with that. I don't make demands. I'm already on the job because they know I try hard to make it work the way they designed it. It's their job to design it and if things don't do what they say, I'll be back to fix it, at additional expense (read change order). It's still good work, it still makes the paychecks good, and it still makes a profit for the company.

If I were to cast my judgement and walk away from it another mechanical contractor would be happy to jump in my place and do the work.

It would be nice to see a more efficient system going in here but I completely side with JohnNY on this. Try to educate the customer, do it his way, accept the payments as they come in.

Brad White_203

Means and Methods (for Paul Pollets)

Hi Paul-

Engineers, at least in our practice avoid specifying means and methods. That is a form of micro-management, telling someone how to hold their wrench and hovering over their shoulders. There is greater liability in our meddling at that level.

"The engineer told me to turn on that unit at that time.. I did not know the site super had his hand reaching through the fan blades at the time..."

Rather we specify products, materials and systems. Any references to means and methods are usually as vague as "according to best trade practices" or we stipulate a standard such as ASME. We might be specific about certain pipe sealants or just to assure compatibility with the fluids carried. Things like that.

The basic presumption is that the contractor knows how to best do their jobs.

I agree with you, 100%, that any errors or omissions should be brought to the attention of the project manager for resolution. Believe me, I have seen some outrageous designs and have been called on to troubleshoot more than my share. I too have made perfectly bone-headed blunders, let me be clear.

Some engineers get really defensive when told that they screwed up, especially by someone in the trades. (I guess anyone would, but it depends how they are told.) I find this defensiveness unfortunate because it is resistant to learning.

I say to them, "get over it!" You don't walk on water -especially moving as it does with all of those pumps."

Your notification of potential errors is due diligence and as intelligent beings, that is the standard to which we all should hold ourselves.

Keep doing what you are doing, Paul. I am glad of it.

Rick_91

What size boiler(s) are on this job

How many btus?

Rick_91

What size boiler(s) are on this job

How many btus?

JohnNY

No boiler.

We're using a 6-gallon electric water heater and an extension cord.

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Rick_91

Please don't confuse that Rick with me

I haven't posted on this thread...

Rick

Paul Pollets

For Brad...Huh?

How does an engineer provide mechanical plans showing piping details,pipe sizes, pump size and location by "being vague"? "According to best trade practices" would put more of the onus on the installing contractor.


Every drawing I've seen shows the details and appurtances required. Whether they're correct or not is the Big Question. I understand the defense mechanisms of engineers' who have screwed up. The correct piping and pumping strategies for any system have been widely available for at least 15 years. It says something about standards and education.

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Unknown

6 gallons? Sheesh man, is this the taj mahal????? scale it down!!!!

Rick_91

Don't need a boiler

The heat from the CIRCULATORS will be sufficient to heat the house!

Sincerely,

The Energy Star Program

Bob Bona_4

exactamundo.

How many times have we've seen "boilerplate" specs in the bid that make you say "whaaaaa???" One of my favorites has to be "condensate drain lines shall be copper, insulated with minimum of 1/2" approved pipe isulation" (A/C).

Seriously?

Gently point out some of the more insane items that just don't fit for the type of job, CYA with something to the effect of workmanship will be top notch, design by others. If mechanical spec was provided, it has to be followed or else a second party has to be compensated for refinements.

Rich, couldn't have said it better.

FATBOY040575

Beat the dead horse

It is really to bad that all you guys have nothing better to do then to beat a dead horse, two or three posts about the pumps would be "green" but more then five seems to be "overpumping" like JohnNy stated, NOT HIS DESIGN, HE JUST DID WHAT HE NEEDED TO TO TAKE CARE OF HIS PAYROLL, and for somebody to state they would not take this job because of the overpump issue "BS" money talks and bs walks. Times being what they are GOOD FOR YOU JONH for taking care of your guys and doing what you can to make sure all us tax payers do not have to support any more people, why dont you guys "****" about the fact that only three people will live in this house instead of homeless parents and children having a shelter that it "SHOULD HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO" GOD BLESS AMERICA

Rich L.

Too funny Bob,

I just had to send a guy back to insulate (1/2") the copper drain line (spec'ed) off a mini split we installed a month ago. The engineer noted it on his punch list! HA!

Bob Bona_4

LOL!!!

Did you "braze" all joints in an approved manner?

I wish every engineer could be Brad White. All would be right in the world.

Home Depot Employee

Rick, what was that for?

Are you the supply guy that sold the circs?

Entrainment (engineering)- The entrapment of gas bubbles or solid particulates in a flowing liquid, as with aeration.

Sorry I wrote above your comprehension level.

Home Depot Employee

Understood Rick after posting and scrolling down.

I was wondering what came over you, originally thought CO poisoning

[Deleted User]

The Lawyers will have a field day with this!

"Your honor, I had no idea the entire Con Ed midtown grid would collapse when all those pumps fired up..."

Or: "The 200 dB noise in the system when two or more clicked on made how many people deaf"?

Rick_91

No some other Rick

I have stayed out of this. but thanks for asking. I work for a manufacturer now and it's not pumps...

Rick_92

Confusion

Please don't confuse me with the other Rick.

Not sure how you wouldn't be confused, since we both say our name is Rick.

Just so you know....I am the real Rick. The other Rick must be an imposter.

Rick_91

I might be schizophrenic?

Wow

Rick_92

6 Gallon Electric water heater

JohnNY

I talked to an engineer friend of mine and he and I both concur that you should have the electrician wire the elements to come on simultaneously.

Also it would be really cool to use one of those extension cords that that have lights built into the ends.

Rick_92

Best Thread Ever

JohnNY

Thanks for going out on a limb and posting your pictures here. Also, you have a great sense of humor.

This has been one of the most entertaining threads I have read on the Wall for a long time.

And, I also want to say that you have a great website with some sweet pictures of the work you have done in the past.

Don't let the bonehead guys that have been post negative stuff get to you.