I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...UPDATE..

Kelly Gilbert

Molds and allergies

I know all about molds and allergies. I have been sensitive to all kinds of scented products, and soaps, air "fresheners" and candles, detergents, and chemicals for years. I am allergic to so many household chemicals that my mother went to her grave still believing "it was all in my head." Yes, it was in my head...and in my lungs ...and in my sinuses and was a detriment to my physical health and parts of my life. I even get paralyzing migranes from the smell of floral perfumes.
This is not mold. I still swear it is smoke, because that's what it smells like. It smells like it could be burnt combustibles coming back down into the cellar, and then rising and coming up from the cellar into the house. Since Norm was here and ran the boiler for two hours on very high temperatures, the fumes are not as strong in the cellar as they once were, but I still don't go down there (to do laundry) when the boiler is on because my head gets filled up and I get physically sick. My body can't tolerate the smoke or fumes or whatever it is. (Because I used to smoke cigarettes and have a good "nose" I can distinguish between cigarette smoke, fireplace smoke and whatever smoke this is.) When the boiler is running the smell is at it's strongest and even when it's off the odor lingers in the air in the house. I can smell pockets of it in the air as I walk from room to room anytime during the day. I know I'm more sensitive than most people, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Thanks for the suggestion because a lot of people aren't educated about molds and never become educated until they themselves or someone they love develop sensitivities or allergies. When I was young I never had allergies. Once I had my first child, I began developing intolerances to scores of environmental triggers. Weird...but true.

bigugh_4

Just a thoiught?

Have you recently done any up date inside the house? new carpet?, painted any thing, new drapes, wood work, remodel, Anything at all, that could be gassing off when the rooms get warm?
Also, here in Utah, I could ask the Fire Dept. to come by and check out the fumes. They'd do that in a hurry to keep from an emergency situation. and for free. And they have meters that'd show hazerdus gasses.

dana_3

smell

with the -.09 draft you could be pulling the flame away from the burner head causing incomplete combustion.there also be flue gas spillage at the draft damper during start up, or down drafting from the chimney during the off cycle. check the barometric around the damper assembly for staining. if you dare go to the draft damper when the boiler fires and check the smell at that time. (just another thought) dana p.

Howard Emerson

I know that smell, Kelly..........

Hi Kelly,
We have a boiler that has its own fresh air intake, so it does not draw air from the house.

The smell you're talking about, though, is one I'm pretty sure I know. We have a wood burning stove and a fireplace.

Occasionally I'll smell this very burned smell in my living room when there is no fire going. Invariably I trace it to the fireplace, and the damper is just slightly ajar.

What will make is worse, though, is if we turn on the bathroom ventilator, which is quite strong. It ends up drawing make-up air down the flue, and there's that smell.

If we have a fire going in the fireplace (we have pretty airtight doors and a Grate-Heater), we do not get the smell at all because it's forcing the flue in the 'correct' direction: Up & out.

It sounds to me like you're getting a negative pressure.

I would get some 6mil plastic sheeting, some fresh duct tape, and seal the fireplace opening, and then see what happens, especially when you turn on the boiler.

I would not be surprised to see the plastic bulge outwards, and there will be a strong clue as to what is happening.

Of course the fumes from the boiler chimney may be getting drawn down the fireplace chimney, like a dog chasing its tail, right? Oil burner chimney smell is different than fireplace chimney smell, of course.

I clean my own chimneys and have been next to the flue when the boiler kicks in............Yummy.........not.

A fresh air intake for your boiler is not a difficult fix for a heating tech who knows their business.

Aside from that, Claritan and a nettie-pot! They sure helped my allergies:-)

Best of luck.

Howard

mark ransley

Do you have a few good digital Co meters, one near the boiler and test them for peak readings. Has anyone checked the chimney, or checked for poor draw and leaks that release Co. Do you have a screened chimney cap and no animals or fallen debris in the chimney. In my chimney I had a racoon, 2 pigeons, and a sparrow. Is it a tight house.

Bill Clinton_6

smoke

I'm getting into this kinda late, and hope I read the above material correctly. My two cents: If there is a good draft at the boiler, and combustion analyzers say everything is good, and the smoke test shows no smoke, then the boiler isn't making the smoke!

That leaves something in the chimney as the culprit, or something in contact with the chimney. Maybe hot exhaust gases are leaving chimney through a crack at someplace where wood is very near (or maybe asphalt shingles?) and gradually turning wood (shingles?) into charcoal. I would look for a spot near the roof because: 1 brown smoke there; 2. near top of chimney, there is very little negative pressure (draft) left, so it wouldn't be hard to suck the stuff back into the house. I would also think the defect in the chimney extends across adjacent passages in that chimney. One passage takes the exhaust gasses up, another passage takes them down and dumps them into a slightly negatively presurized house.

Another variation might be that, in closing that old kitchen vent, someone drove a big old wooden 8x8 into the hole to give some backing for the fix-all they filled it with. Later a crack appeared between the adjacent flue passages, bringing hot exhaust in contact with that 8x8, charring it slowly and bringing in to effect the above scenario.

In either case, a chimney liner should fix it.

Bill

Kelly Gilbert

Yes, I think so, too...

We had a chimney company come out here today and the guy said he believes the chimney is the problem. Norm was right! Cheers for Norm!

There is a bottleneck and he said the space behind the fireplace is about 3" wide and 14" long, so getting a required 6" liner down there is impossible right now. The house is 65 years old and has never had even so much as a clay liner. The bricks are very worn down and there is mortar worn away and the chimney not only needs a liner, but it needs some brick and mortar work before a liner can be installed. He said the 3" space should be widened enough to get a 6" liner in there to adhere to code. He talked about the possibly a downdraft because of the constrictions. He also said the chimney was poorly designed (if it was "designed" at all) when it was built. The fact that no one knows how many years have gone by since it has been cleaned had a lot to do with the poor condition of the chimney, along with having no chimney cap which let all the rain in that did a job on the brick and mortar. So, all along it was the chimney. I believe it now, and I'm not surprised. I'm actually grateful it wasn't the boiler. That boiler is only about 6 years old!

I don't feel like a I wasted my time on this thread because I think I really learned a lot about my oil boiler (and not my "furnace") that I never knew before. And I probably will be back with more questions about it again soon.

Thank you to all of you wonderful people who took the time to help me try to figure out what the problem actually was. I'm very grateful to each and every one of you.

Gordy

Now there is...

A professional chimney inspection!! Spelled it all out in detail what is wrong with the chimney, cause/effect of things being wrong, and how to correct them!!

Sometimes it takes a couple of tries, but that is what to look for in a professional as a homeowner.


Gordy

Unknown

Kelly is getting really...

Kelly is getting really popular on this site, shall we make her an offical Wallie?

Mark Custis

Why Not?

Mike B.

chimney replacement

What about having a power venter installed instead of relining the chimney?

Unknown

A power venter

will not solve her problems.

Mark Custis

I am always glad to see her

even if she refuses to do what she asks us to tell her. She is still alive.

Flue is the problem.

Maine Ken

A space 3" x 14" behind the fireplace sounds like a "Rumford" fireplace and if it is, it is designed that way for the fireplace to work properly. The boiler flue should have nothing to do with the fireplace flue. They must be completely separate. I have a hard time buying the "constricted" chimney with the amount of draft that Norm has reported.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

lee_7

Won't the restriction cause a higher vacumm effect on the downward side of it. Kind of like blocking part of vacumm hose and suction gets stronger.

Jim Bennett

Interesting.....

Never heard of a "Rumsford" fireplace. Did a google search and the first hit was Rumsford.com

http://www.rumford.com/articleWhat.html

Gordy

Not a Rumford design

Ken. Kelly showed a pic of their fireplace in her initial thread. With a Rumford the sides of the back are angled more, and it is shallow to reflect more heat into the room.

Could be a feable attempt to produce a Rumford effect.



Gordy

Norm Harvey

Sweet sweet redemption!

Kelly, once this is finished, and if you are still happy and satisfied with the chimney company, I would love to have their name and contact info.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kelly Gilbert

Yes, your right...partially..

The Mister says looking up the chimney, the space behind the fireplace shows it is designed exactly like a Rumford, however, the front of the fireplace where the logs go is a modern design and does not have that severe angle design of the Rumford. VERY INTERESTING!.... We also have a heatilator, which I think is ugly, but the chimney guy said is in great shape considering the deplorable condition of the chimney and is an asset and considered desirable to have. (not to me!)

Kelly Gilbert

I'm getting a 3rd chimney co. out here Sat. for an estimate...

I can't believe that this industry is unregulated in my state of MA and the misinformation that one company gives to the next is jaw opening. The last company was better than the first, but I still have my doubts. I was told that there is a bottleneck designed flue in the fireplace and the 3" x 14" bottleneck is in the main flue. (That small opening is in the main flue.) Both companies said that. However, I am skeptical because I read that the stainless steel liner for the main chimney should be insulated, and both companies said they couldn't use the blanket insulator, but on the second company's estimate they didn't list the Thermix for the main chimney liner, only the fireplace one. When I asked about it they said they would only "partially" insert some Thermix down the main chimney liner. (What's up with that?--sounds like they don't care about lining the thing) Also, no charge for pulling permit on estimate (even though we know it's required) and nothing about what gauge stainless steel they would be using for both liners. (makes me wonder?) My hubby liked they second company's owner who came out. Still, I want more answers. Company #3 (over the phone)can't imagine why it would be a chimney problem at all with a high draft, and I'm still smelling fumes in the house. So the saga continues... Will keep you posted. Thanks for taking an interest!

Kelly

Dan_15

Kelly, not sure where you live in MA but try this guy:

http://www.erikanthonycustomfireplaces.com/company.html

He speciaizes in problem fireplaces and will not try and sell you something you dont need.

Gordy

Asking questions

Kelly i presume you are calling the main flue the flue that services the boiler correct. If so that throws the Rumford theory out the window.

There may not be enough clearance for the thermix insulation the whole run of the flue. Flue size is more important than the insulation.

They may not have included gauge size of the liner due to the fact no one ever asks.

Did you ask the company to explain your questions Kelly.

I would be leary of over the phone answers about a chimney problem as far as company 3.


Gordy

Gordy

Asking questions

Kelly i presume you are calling the main flue the flue that services the boiler correct. If so that throws the Rumford theory out the window.

There may not be enough clearance for the thermix insulation the whole run of the flue. Flue size is more important than the insulation.

They may not have included gauge size of the liner due to the fact no one ever asks.

Did you ask the company to explain your questions Kelly.

I would be leary of over the phone answers about a chimney problem as far as company 3.


Gordy

Kelly Gilbert

Yes, the boiler flue I am calling the main flue...

I think it is also called an appliance flue(?) And the other flue is called the fireplace flue. The second company is going to widen the 3" space (they say it's 3" and the other company said it was 5") by getting behind my refigerator and cutting out a hole in the wall to make an opening (there is an old hole that was once there from a wood stove that was sealed up) and somehow widen it to pass through a 6" liner. They said they will enclose it with brick and mortar and my hubby said he will sheet rock and paint the wall to save us money. Estimate says "316 6x30 SS liner." Do you think it needs to be insulated? The guy was good when he was here about answering questions; I'm just not sure if his answers were up to code, truthful, etc. It's hard to know when people are going to cut corners or not when THEY know that YOU know absolutely NOTHING about chimneys.

Maine Ken

Since before Christmas? This has gone on way too long. For your healths sake, get it done already. My chimney guys will cancel everything and give me same or next day service for emergency/ health reasons. If it is a chimney issue (I don't believe it is) get it done now. Shopping price is the last thing you need to do when the health of you and yours are at stake. If you believe it is a chimney issue then get the work done, have the liner put in and rest well.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bob Forand

Blocked chimney

We just had an oil company come to a jobsite to do a cleaning because the homeowner was getting smells inside the home. They drained the house of all water, and red tagged the furnace because their claim was that the chimney was too small to vent. This chimney has always had a furnace attached with no issues.

Well, after a trip to the site and sticking a mirror into the chimney, I found that the chimney was plugged up. There was a second cleaniut behind a wall in a remodeled kitchen. We pulled out 2 trash bags full of soot. And after it was cleaned, the furnace re-set, everything was fine.

Any chance that you could have a plugged up chimney somewhere along the way ?

Kelly Gilbert

Had third chimney company come out today...

and they were going to do an inspection and cleaning. They said that it wasn't dirty enough to clean! Both flues! However... and of course the news just gets more bizarre...he took pictures with some new fangled camera of the entire chimney from the roof view and showed them to us..meant nothing to me, but he said something is not right. It's very hard to describe as it is for me to understand...From the rooftop the flues go in one direction, say North, and from the basement the flues face in another direction, call it West. Also, the main chimney flue goes straigt down, then angles out of sight and then goes back down again. He said the fireplace flue is really messed up because the heatilator was installed wrong(?) I dont understand the fireplace problem but it's serious. He said from having no liner at all, the bricks and mortar are breaking down and could be cracks in brick and mortar causing flue gases to enter into house. He said there is no way their company would try to put a liner in this chimney without a video camera going down inside that curve or step down or whatever it is called and find out what is going on there and even IF it is possible to get a liner down there. He can't imagine anyone having said they could without knowing what's down there. Excellent chimney draft, no soot or creosite from my understanding; so next step is a video scanning to see exactly what cannot be seen and to determine if a liner can be put in there at all. Will keep in touch...thanks for all your helpful suggestions and information.

Kelly

Kelly Gilbert

We had chimney company #3 come out today for an estimate..

and also for me to see what else I could find out and compare one story to the next. This guy did an inspection and was supposed to do a cleaning but said the chimney was clean and didn't need to be swept. (I think company #1 said it didn't need a cleaning also) I still can't believe it is clean! He had a small cool toy (don't know what it was) that he used to take multiple digital photo shots of the chimney. I didn't understand what I was seeing. (Looked like a black hole to me!) He said from what he could see...the chimney flues on the roof face in one direction, say North. And from the basement, the flues face in another direction, say West. Also, the boiler chimney flue goes straight down, then slides off to the left down like a slide, and then goes down to the basement. You cannot SEE what is in that space. He can't imagine putting a liner down there or trying to without knowing what is going on there. Also, the fireplace is a major mess up. The heatilator was installed wrong (he says)and it is not safe to burn in that fireplace at all. (first company said that also) There is a tiny damper and it opens up to a big huge space. I don't understand it. He said you can't cut up the damper, as one company wanted to do just to get a liner in there. He said that's nuts. I don't know what he is going to do about that. He said his company wouldn't make any recommendations or do anything without a video scan of the entire chimney (both flues) to see all spaces that are not visible, especially the "slide down" before the next drop down. He also said that because there is no liner at all, the bricks and mortar look worn down and there could be cracks in the bricks and mortar pieces missing that could be causing gases to get into the house. I don't understand a lot of what he was talking about because he talked fast and a said a whole lot of stuff that went over my head. I don't know if he was honest or not. But, I wanted a video scan from the beginning, (makes sense) but hubby didn't want to spend the money. It's expensive, but it's going to cost a lot less than fixing this mess. Now he is agreeing to spend the money, since this company said they couldn't write estimates without knowing if they could get a liner in the chimney. He also said that if we decide to go with their company to have work done, they will deduct the price paid for the video scan. Just keeping the heat down and saying my prayers. Thanks so much for your interest and concern. Will keep you posted...

Anyone know off hand what the best quality stainless steel liner is? What about Ventinox?

mark ransley

It took me 5 hrs 23 minutes to get to the bottom of this thread, I forgot what I wanted to say.

Perry_5

Sounds like this guy knows what is needed

Kelly:

Sounds like this guy is honest and knows what is needed in order to properly assess the conditions.

One way or another... I'm betting you have a chimney issue of one kind or another.

Another thing to know: While liners are great and can be used to save the vast majority of chimneys. Sometimes the chimney needs to be tore down or abandoned and replaced.

Not saying that would be your situation; but you obviously do not have a simple straight chimney that has only degraded a bit. So, you might want to start thinking of the options. Replacement Chimneys are a lot smaller and give room for other options. Would you keep the fireplace or not?

As an example: I've abandoned my chimney that runs up the center of the house (I now have a side vented mod/con boiler). My intention is to use the space to run air ducting for whole house air conditioning in the future.

I will also be able to run new wiring for the 2nd floor of the house at the same time. I might not do the house wiring at the same time I tear the chimney out. But there is no reason I can't run all the circuits and leave coils of wire on both ends to allow the wiring project to be done at a future date. Then when the walls are closed up after the chimney is tore out... there would be no reason to have to go back into them again.

Just thought I'd get you thinking.

Perry

kpc_52

dude...

it was 3 am... I would be unconsious.

Maine Ken

well???

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kelly Gilbert

Chimney Video Scan

For $350 we get to pop in a video of our chimney flue tonight! We even get to keep the tape. There are three bricks that look like steps (going up or down) in the area that is hidden from view on the side of the heatilator. (the part of the flue that slopes down like a slide or step down before it drops off again down to the boiler.) The heatilator and the bricks that stick out are preventing a liner from getting in there. They propose to knock out the side of the wall near the corner of the kitchen behind the heatilator where they say the problem is and try to remove bricks and mortar to be able to get a liner in there. My hubby says he'll do the sheet rock, paint and plaster on the kitchen wall when they are done. (God help us!) We're going to hold off on the fireplace, which is another big problem. It was built screwy. The damper and the smoke chamber are up too high and there is no way to attach a liner without ripping the heatilator out or reconstructing the damper which the second company wanted to do, but this guy said that this would be against code. In the future when we have the resources he said we could have the heatilator torched out, rebuild the firebox, and attach a liner to the firebox. That would be another project. (I don't know if what I just said all makes any sense, but that's what I got out of it. I don't understand everything completely, but I DO know I have a SCREWED UP CHIMNEY! I guess this is is not uncommon in older houses. But I am mad because I never knew this chimney has been UNLINED since it was built so many moons ago, and THAT was WRONG right from the start. I guess your never too old to learn something new.

Price to do this job now is reasonable, so he heard me when I told him money was definitely an issue. Cost of the video scan to be deducted from job once it is done. We like these people because they seem to be concerned with safety issues. We have to pull a permit first,(or they will for a charge) and they have a contractor's license, and are conscious about doing work to code, etc. That makes us feel more secure. Also, they use top of the line materials, (liner, cap, etc.) and I am quality conscious.

I am very grateful to all of you for your helpful information, suggestions, and concern for the health of myself and my family. We now have CO detectors on every floor of our house and actually WORKING up-to-date smoke alarms, which I owe to all of you.

Any and all comments and suggestions are always welcome.

P.S. One thing I forgot to ask these people. Every single company did not make any mention of insulating the boiler chimney liner. I remember asking, but all I got was "doesn't need it." Do you think because the offset is so tight they don't want to do one?" I'm still wondering about that one.

Norm Harvey

What chimney company is this Kelly?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gordy

Heatelator after thought

I could be wrong, but I believe that insert was an after thought to the original fireplace that was there.

If you look at the picture that Kelly posted in her original thread the right hand vents appear to have brick behind the screens that do not match the pattern of the brick in the face. I think this was not original, and someone decided to open up the hearth to make room for this type of configuration.

Not that it matters now. But its interesting to try and decipher the past improvements,or in this case disprovement.

Glad to see things are happening been wondering what was going on to.


Gordy

Maine Ken

Kelly, are you still with us?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

s.teermjen2574372

Sorry, been going through some tough times...

right now. I will get back to you as soon as things get better.

Thanks for asking.

Kelly