I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...UPDATE..

Kelly Gilbert

My hubby says the smoke that comes out of the chimney is brown. (not sure when)

Kelly Gilbert

I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...UPDATE...

01/09/09

The smoke smell is getting worse, especially in the cellar. I'm still waiting for the CO detectors I ordered from Amazon. If I thought I needed them right away I would have gone out and bought them at the store. Norm came out again and said he can't find anything wrong with the boiler, so I called the chimney guys he recommended to me and they came out that same day. Told me I need a liner immediately: that chimney is a mess! (?) After three plus hours the installation failed due to some blockage (probably old heating stove pipe in wall in kithen abutting fireplace wall in livingroom.) They have to come back out Thursday, cut a hole in the kitchen wall and remove the obstruction and then try to get the liner in.

Saturday a.m. 01/10/09

My significant other called the chimney guys because the smoke in the cellar is so bad that we are getting sick...coughing, can't breathe when the heat is on, etc. With this cold weather, the boiler is running constantly.

They told us to shut off boiler and buy or rent portable heaters. (not financially doable for us) They moved up the appointment to Tuesday. I just hope to God that this chimmney liner, which is going to cost us plenty by the time it's done, CAN be done and SOLVES whatever reason we have smoke in the cellar and all throughout the house. I WAS right...it was smoke!

Will keep posted for anyone interested. I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to write back and offer stories and advice and help. I really appreciate it a lot.

God bless you!

Kelly

V8toilet

Just make sure the liner they install is stainless steel and not aluminum!

Kelly Gilbert

Why?

Gordy

Thats good to hear

Kelly, I guess significant other decided it was broke.

Did the chimney guys say whether the fireplace chimney is okay to use or not?

Aluminum liners are used primarily for gas burning installs, but due not fair well to corrosive combustion gases. Thus are not recommended.

While stainless steel chimney liners are for oil or wood burning appliances, due to higher flue temps. SS also lasts longer than aluminum in light of the corrosive by products.

If Norm reccomends these guys I'm sure they know, but it does not hurt to ask though.

I'm glad to here the problem has been identified, and rectified. Keep us posted Kelley we like to here whether or not we are helpful.


Gordy

Norm Harvey

The boiler flues are completely clear. (Inspecting the flues with the flue pipe down) So clear and clean in fact that you can see bare cast iron, and you can see down into the combustion chamber. The fire is burning cleanly and there is no evidence that there is any kind of make up air problem.

I interested to see what this blockage in the chimney is all about that the chimeny guys found. Has anyone else experienced partially blocked chimneys with high -.09 draft?

I cant find anything terribly wrong with combustion to be causing an odor, I am leaning toward venting issues,.. but the draft says otherwise?

Once the liner goes in and we can be assured of a patent airway, we can see if the problem persists.

Kelly,
I thought I had impressed upon you the urgent need for CO detectors. I was surprised to hear you ordering them online instead of from the local home center that I suggested. I'll take this as a lesson learned and in the future use more vibrant wording to illustrate the urgency.


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Mark Eatherton

Just a guess here....

Norm, -.09 is strong enough to suck the chrome off of a bumper hitch, no?

That exiting air has to be made up from some where. Is it possible that the boiler/chimney system is pulling combustion air back down the solid fuel appliances chimney breaching, hence the odor of smoke?

I agree with you, the little you save in buying equipment on line is not worth it, especially when there are lives at stake. But it is human nature to get "a good deal", especially during tough economic times.

ME

don_185

I guess

I guess anything possible.Maybe the house is under a negative pressure.Doubt it.

If I recall, Norm said that he had two big combustion air inlets.That should break the negative pressure.

I know in my area that once a year during summer month they do control burning.Every time it done the fire station gets calls because, people assume that their house is on fire.

Sometime it can be just a matter of other people burning their fireplace.Add a drafty home and some wind in there is nothing you can do about it.

I feel your pain,Norm.Not only do we have to be boiler tech but, we have to be air experts too.

Time to look into some aircleaner with alittle ozone to get rid of the smell.Would anyone like to talk charcoal filters while we're at it?

Gordy

On to something Mark

I have inserted two pics of my personal double flue chimney setups. This is what I was suspect to when Kelly mentioned her fireplace in the other thread.

Chimney pic 1 is a two fireplace set up ones in the basement, and one on the main floor. You light one smoke comes down the other in certain conditions not always. The original flue caps was a screen over the flue ways, but the problem was still evident.

Chimney pic 2 is the fireplace on main floor in living room, and the boiler venting. This one never poses a problem. But the flues are farther apart.


But Kelly smells the smoke in the basement where the boiler is, Not on the main floor where their fireplace is located.

The only real solution to my problem is a positive top sealing damper on both flues. Extending the flue tiles on one or the other would be a crap shoot as to how high you would need to go to eliminate sucking into the lower one.



Gordy

Gordy

Houses, and negative pressure

I think you will find Don that in the winter time with the dwelling closed up, most homes are under negative pressure even at rest ( with no exiting air).

This is why Radon gas is such a problem in homes. In geograhical areas of high concentrations. Most radon mitigation systems break the negative pressure in the home under the slab of the basement to exit the gas.


Gordy

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Kelly

Get a Carbon Monoxide Detector TODAY!! You said the family is getting sick, are you getting headaches?? If the problem is Carbon Monoxide you could all DIE tonight!! Some here think it may be a downdraft issue and I saw that once a couple of years ago. The chimney worked fine for years, it went up high, past the peak, and had lots of draw. I got a call from the customer, his boiler had shut off and was downdrafting at an unbelievable rate. He had two fresh air outlets into the boiler room, one high and one low. While I was assessing the situation, the customer opened the basement door and the draft immediatly corrected itself. I fired the boiler and went and got smoke sticks to analyze air movement but it never happened again? I would check the draft when you smell gas fumes, maybe you have a similar situation? I have also had a couple of jobs where a dead mouse and bird in the house smelled a little like gas, look around for that.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon 978-853-4873

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D107

As homeowner, i was advised by Wall pros to

make sure liner was insulated as well. (ours was an external chimney). Either with cement like material (Thermix) that gets poured down the liner after it's installed or with insulation that gets wrapped around the liner sections as they're being installed. Helps keeps the liner at a higher temperature to avoid condensation corrosion.

In our case we were installing a new boiler so they sized the liner diameter according to that specific boiler spec. We did find a bunch of bricks and dust piled up below the breach from prior chimney repairs.

Good luck,

David

don_185

Hi Gordy

Are we about to get into a discussion about Synergistic effects here on the wall.

I know there are many drivers that can affect the pressure difference in a home and it depend on which one is activated.

I have seen the meter swing both ways, never constant.

Gordy

The wall

I believe relativly speaking that about everything on the wall incorporates synergism. Its what makes this place so great!!


Gordy

Norm Harvey

Hey Mark, This burner has an outside make up are pipe. So combustion air is taken from the outside.

Although this is a burnham boiler,.. there is a system 2000 cover (just the cover only, the cover that attaches to the beckett housing can be installed on any beckett) with a PVC make up air tube going to the outside which is clear. Withthe sealed cover if the burner was not getting enough air I would see sooting in the flues which I do not.



The chimney company was going to install a new draft regulator to replace the broken one when they did the liner, but there is some delay there.



This one is a stumper on me. I understand the draft is high, but even so, allother combustion data supports a clean burning appliance. Given the complain of odor, and since Kelly states that it originates in the basement, I can only think of venting issues.

The chimney companys diffucilty with the liner due to some kind of blockage substantiates my thinking,.. except for if there is some kind of blockage, why do I have such a high draft?

This is an unusual one for me.

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Kelly Gilbert

System 2000 cover...

This makes me think back to the day they delivered this brand spanking shiny new boiler to me (our oil comany at the time) and then brought in this old yellow crappy box that obviously didn't match and attached it to the boiler. I know I must have asked what it was and they gave me some answer that they knew I wouldn't understand anyway.

It wasn't until we had a bad smoke fire in the chimney awhile later that they made up that PVC pipe thingy that goes to the outside of the house with a vent on it.

I wonder if that little yellow box somehow could be part of the problem.

One chimney guy said our chimney was a mess and that no way in hell should we ever use the fireplace and that we needed a liner immediately and THAT would solve the problem. The partner came out two days later and says the chimney doesn't really look that bad and that the liner IS NOT going to solve the problem and that there is no rush to put one in. He also said it way okay to use the fireplace for small fires. (?) He said he believes the smell is boiler related, and not chimney related. He acted like he really didn't care about doing the job and left. So who do we believe?

You can imagine how confused WE are! We run the heat only when necessary and leave it off more than on in order to avoid that horrible smell coming up from the basement which after awhile causes headaches and hoarseness of throat, etc., etc.

If it's not a chimney problem and it's not a boiler problem then what is it? Why is the odor only coming from the basement where the boiler is ONLY when the boiler is running?

Gordy

Kelly, according to your first post they were installing the liner? Are you now saying they are not going to?


The conflicting answers you are getting from the chimney guys is in deed confusing! I would expect that response from two different companies verses internal conflicting answers from one company. Define a small fire that is okay to burn.

I think I would get a second opinion. The obstruction sounds suspicious.


Gordy

lee_7

I would guess their small fire would be a decorative fire, 1 maybe 2 logs and not a heat the house fire that you used to make in big old masonry chimneys. The yellow box is for the fresh air intake and it helps quite down the burner noise. We used to install them all the time, but we would paint it at shop to match whatever boiler it was to be installed on. And always installed piping to outside when we installed box

Kelly Gilbert

That's what I am saying..

The "small fire" response was ridiculous to me, too. As far as the obstruction goes, I believe there is one and I know what it is.

There used to be an old wood or cast iron stove (in 1945 in this house when it was built) in the kitchen. When we first moved in, there was a pie plate shape tin cover that covered a hole in the wall that probably contains a rim or small piece of pipe still in the wall from that old stove that was never removed. Our plasterers filled that hole and repaired the hole in the wall (when we had our walls replastered and painted when we first moved in 8 years ago) and there is no visible sign now of the hole at all. I told them this. Probably what they are seeing from looking up the chimney is either the plaster clump or a piece of metal pipe containing the plaster clump. This "once" hole just happens to lie right between the back of the wall that the fireplace is on and the main chimney flue. I was told the space that separates the back of the fireplace and the other flue is only a 5" space.

I believe there is an obstruction. I just don't understand why one guy first said that the liner would solve our problem (of this horrible smell in the cellar that smells like some kind of smoke fumes) and was ABSOLUTELY necessary because the chimney is in such bad shape, and then the other guy said it wouldn't solve our problem at all and really wasn't necessary. Go figure...

Now, back to the problem....THAT smell that no one can seem to identify that is making us sick. What if I said it smells like burnt oil? Would that mean anything to anyone? You see, I didn't grow up with oil heat; I grew up with gas. So oil problems are not so easily identifiable for me as gas problems are.

We DID get the CO detector. It is in the cellar and plugged in and reading zero.

Also, what color smoke should be coming out the chimney?

ed wallace

smoke

should not be able to see smoke when its running might see white smoke on start up while chimney heats up

lee_7

Where is smoke coming out of chimney from, top ( outside) or bottom ( in basement)?

Kelly Gilbert

Smoke

The brown smoke is coming out of chimney from the top of the chimney which is in the center of the house on the roof. We have a smell of some kind which is making us sick in the basement. I thought it was a smoke of some sort but it's not visible, because it smells like burnt oil or car exhaust or something like that, that we cannot identify. It only happens when boiler is running, so I'm keeping heat off most of the time and freezing rather than get headaches and sick from it.

lee_7

Is it possible you have a hole in boiler? I did not see what type of boler you have, but if cast iron, the gasket material might have a crack in it releasins CO in basement. I saw that inside of boiler was clean aand combustion info was stated to be ok. Otherwise, it sounds like either there is something in chimney burning or you have downdraft as stated before.

Kelly Gilbert

I wish I knew..

Someone else mentioned today about a crack in the boiler. As far as the chimney goes, I don't have a clue as to what is going on.

My hubby just put his nose between the yellow box in front and the front of the boiler and said it smelled stronger there. I can't trust his nose, because it's burnt out from painting cars.

As soon as you open the cellar door, you can smell this horrible smell at the top of the stairs right away. So it must be fumes, because they are rising. They are potent fumes after awhile and really sickening.

I was just down there for a few minutes with the boiler going and I have a headache right now.

Kelly Gilbert

From Jim...

(Kelly's "significant other") I put my nose down by the burner swing door and the smell is very strong right there. I opened the flap and there is a lot of insulation in there. Is it possible that chemical smell is coming out of the insulation? I believe that the strongest part of the smell is in front of the boiler down low.

from Kelly:(He had to look up part names in Burnham booklet that came with boiler)

V8toilet

Check the inside of the boiler combustion chamber at the top

Sometimes a bird can fall down the chimney, go through the pipe from the chimney to your boiler, and get inside the top of the boiler. When the boiler runs it burns the carcass and could cause some of the hot gases to back up inside the boiler. Every time the boiler runs you'll get that smell. This happened to my brothers boiler a few times.

The other cause could be that the boiler needs a cleaning real bad. It doesn't take long for an oil boiler to coke up especially if it's not burning right.

CC.Rob_11

is it possible...

that you (both of you?) are somehow sensitive to not just the combustion products but the oil itself? A stretch for sure, but at this point figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Kelly Gilbert

Are you kidding me?

We have lived in this house for eight years and never had a problem with the oil burner until now.

I have been smelling these fumes since Christmas. He paints cars for a living and doesn't smell something until it out and out stinks!

If you were here right now and could smell it, you wouldn't have asked that question!

lee_7

When boiler is running, is there any smok visible around burner door? Are there signs of smoke going up outside of cabinet? Very possible seal around burner door is leaking. Also possible that boiler passes as somewhat clogged or as mentioned chimney is partly blocked, causing back pressure which in turn is pushing combustion gasses out the burner door.

Kelly Gilbert

The Mister says there are no visible signs of smoke...

just burnt oil or some type of combustion burning fumes. I don't know anymore. I won't stay in the cellar when we do run the boiler at all now because the smell makes me so sick and I've been smelling it so long now I'm just disgusted.

Chas_9

Flying Squirells

In a brick chimney, all matter of critters come to visit. Heck, I just rescued a flying squirell who popped down the other day. Perhaps there is a high draft but something smouldering / quazi combustable in there. If they have oil burner combustion smoke in the basement they would all be dead. It must be burning something else.

Maine Ken

Are these odors only occurring when you and your husband are home? Do they occur everytime the boiler fires? Did they happen when Norm was there? Chimney guys? I am finding it increasingly hard to believe that fumes this bad are not detected and identified in fairly short order. Obviously something changed around Christmas time and has gotten worse since. Is there anything that has been added or deleted in the residence around Christmas?

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denjpas

burning oil

Where does the oil supply line run? Is it possible oil is dripping or spraying a fine mist onto hot metal somewhere and that the burning oil Kelly keeps mentioning is, in fact, burning oil?

Kelly Gilbert

This odor occurs every time heat is put on...

which hasn't been at all since I have it off most of the time. I am freezing, but I don't trust the boiler at this point. I don't know if it occurs when the boiler turns on automatically for the hot water. The smell gets stronger the longer the boiler is running, so you will notice it the longer it is on.

The chimney guy who was here smelled it (the second one) and he said he thought the smell was a boiler problem, and not in the chimney and when we asked him if doing the liner would solve the problem he said no, and acted like he didn't want to do the job. I don't know if Norm ever smelled it. I don't think so. I think the times he was here the heat wasn't running.

No, we aren't imagining it. I'm really getting frustrated with these types of questions. Why would my husband and I be freezing our butts off and spending all this time trying to find out what the problem is if it was in both our imaginations?

The first chimney guy ripped the pipe off going to the chimney to replaster it to the chimney (it was replastered so many times over the years it was a mess) and put a new (air closer and opener) on it. ( don't know name) The thing is so loud now it is driving me crazy. The whole boiler is rattling and very loud when it just turns on for the hot water. It just woke me up and it's 3:30 a.m.

Nothing has been added or deleted since Christmas. I just started noticing the problem since that time, and it has gotten worse.

Bob Bona_4

to me

it sounds like a good check out of oil delivery pressure and vacuum readings are needed. From here, I'm thinking you have flame pulsation that could be caused by, but not limited to, excessive draft, irregular draft, bad nozzle, oil pressure fluctuations (slipping pump coupling, vaccum out of spec, pump pressure issues..)

Over time, the puffs/odors from flame instability will build and you WILL notice it. Time for a tech to get intimate w/ the burner!

CC.Rob_11

just checking

Here on the other side of the internet, it's hard to smell your basement. There are many sources of environmental sensitivity. Some sensitivities increase over time.

Good luck getting this resolved. Certainly a difficult situation.

Norm Harvey

Update 1/13/2009

I spent 2 hours at Kellys house today. The burner ran for one hour before I touched it with no smell, and no smoke. Mt combustions tests during this period yielded all normal results, including:

Zero smoke - the burner is running cleanly
draft -.03/-.03 - The draft is appropriate
Pump pressure is steady at 100psi - no pulsating pump pressure or slipping burner coupling
CO less than 50ppm
CO2 12.25
Excess air 28%
Gravity fed oil line reads zero vacuum.

The second hour I rand the burner a few minutes on and a few minutes off to check any kind of delayed ignition (even though the ignitor tests within tolerance)

For the entire 2 hours there was no smell, zero ambient CO as detected on my Testo, as well as Kellys Nighthawk peak level indicator.

All tests were performed with with the air cover tot he burner in tact and operating using the outside air for combustion. The burner runs smoothly, with no pulsating, and also starts and stops smoothly as well.

I believe that Kelly is having this smell issue,.. but I can not find any problem with the burner, and both Kelly and I do not smell anything while I am there.

Kelly states they the smell only appears when the oil burner is running, and goes away when she shuts the burner off.

Again I trust Kellys complaint of odor, but I cannot find anything wrong with the burner.

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Brad White_203

Norm

I have to conclude that the only time the smell does not occur is when you are there.

Trying to figure out the opposite of B.O. but words fail me

Darrell_7

Is there anti freeze in your system? A small leak inside the boiler jacket but outside the fire box will burn off whenever the boiler runs and gets hot...it will have a very pungent smell and if the burning gets going good enough there will be white smoke. You will only smell it when it is burning. A leaky air vent, union, backflow preventer, relief valve, or any number of things can weep a small amount of antifreeze and do exactly what you are experiencing. All of your efforts are focused on flue gases...which can be very pungent without any carbon monoxide...and you may be overlooking another source.

It is also possible that something has dropped into the jacket ofthe boiler and is burning off when the boiler fires...a crayon once costs me four or five go-backs. Never did figure out how the crayon got there.

And you will get sensitized to the odor over time...more and more sensitive...for instance you could probably smell the neighbors boiler kick on and I couldn't smell it f my head was in the boiler...80K hours of service work will do that.

John Starcher_4

I have often thought....

....about having life-size cardboard cutouts of me printed up. That way, the intermittent problems would never show up since the appliance would think I'm standing there watching it. You might want to try this, Norm!!!

Norm Harvey

Good thoughts, but this is a steam system, and I also took off all of the boiler jackets to inspect for any rope gasket leaks and clean out door leaks,... nada.

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