I seem to have a lack of oxygen in the house...UPDATE..

Bob Bona_4

when

you were there Norm, were all the doors closed/open as they would be, as in can there be a combustion air/air balance issue that comes up during the HO's normal daily routine, despite the air boot?

Pump @ 100; OEM setting?

Another thought. Try disconnecting the fresh air intake and see what happens.

Feeling your pain, trust me..been there.

lee_7

Norm, has the weather changed in last 24 hours, less wind, temp change, or humidity change of any signifigance?

Gordy

Brown Smoke

Was that observed comming out of the chimney?

Gordy

Kelly Gilbert

That is hysterical!

I had to laugh out loud at that one. So I guess it's true, we're not the only ones whose boiler enjoys playing hide and seek!

Anna Conda

Ah heck no -- you got a Dancing Frog It's a perfectly ordinary, behaving item until the Authority Figures leave, then it's up and singing the Michigan Rag =D

walnuts

I know this may sound crazy, but is there any type of exhaust fan running upstairs while this odor is present. Whole house fan, bathroom vent, or one of the new high efficiency clothes dryers?

Brad White_203

Not crazy at all

Excellent question. Would not be the first time.

Gordy

Another thought

It may be reaching....What about gravity circulation with in the chimney? Such as you can see with in a pipe in hydronics. Where cooler water, and warm water pass each other in the same pipe.

Something has to of changed though if it is a recent issue. Such as the fans, or tightening up the structure, or a recent partial chimney obstruction.

Gordy

Perry_5

Here's a possibility

I just recalled why I felt I needed to A) replace my 52 year young boiler and One of the reasons for not wanting to reuse the chimney.

When the wind would blow in a swirling pattern I would get exhaust gasses back into the house. This was only once in a while - and it was definitely related to a specific wind pattern.

Since this did not used to occur (or not to the point that I noticed it before) - I wonder if it had something to do with a partial blockage - or other obstruction of the chimney cap.

Perry

don_185

Draft

Hi Norm.How did you get the draft down?

Have you ever herd the term brushdown? It may just be a word in my area.Thats the stuff that ends up in the bottom of a fire box after a cleaning.

Its been a few time I've been to a oil boiler and would have rising co on the off cycle.Most times it from 2 to 4"
of brushdown in a bottom of a firebox.

I think it was Bob that question the 100 psi pump pressure.
That could be a big part of your problem.

Try a smaller nozzle at 140 psi and see what that would do for you.Even if you are stuck with a trace on the smokespot
its not always a bad thing.

Hang in there, Kelly.

Kelly Gilbert

Does anyone know anything about sulfur dioxide?

How to test for it in the air? I have been sick for so long now and I think Norm was right...it HAS to be the chimney. I can still smell fumes in the air all over the house and I'm so sick lately. I did some reading about chimney gases and I think I could be getting sulfur dioxide poisioning. We have appointments to comparison shop for chimney liners but I'm so so sick lately I can't stand it.

lee_7

I would go to hospital and get blood tested. They should be able to test for that and CO poisoning. This has been going on way tooo long and if you are still sick, this is not good. Go get tested, to is worth the co pay for peace of mind that you are not dying.

Lee

lee_7

I would go to hospital and get blood tested. They should be able to test for that and CO poisoning. This has been going on way tooo long and if you are still sick, this is not good. Go get tested, to is worth the co pay for peace of mind that you are not dying.

Lee

lee_7

I would go to hospital and get blood tested. They should be able to test for that and CO poisoning. This has been going on way tooo long and if you are still sick, this is not good. Go get tested, to is worth the co pay for peace of mind that you are not dying.

Lee

Norm Harvey

Any readings on your CO meters Kelly?

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Gordy

Yup !

Get to immediate care. Explain the situation you have at home, and request you be tested. Symptoms are burning of the eyes, nose, throat, and difficulty breathing. Fumes can be produced by the burning of fuel oil. Once in the air it can convert to sulphuric acid, and sulphur trioxide.


Gordy

V8toilet

Try flooding the boiler with water (fill the boiler all the way up the gauge glass) and see if any water appears at the base of the boiler. Let the flooded boiler stay flooded for a half hour to make sure there are no holes in the boiler castings. If there were a small hole or crack above the water line in your steam boiler than it's possible for combustion gases to enter the steam piping and become distributed throughout the home via the steam piping every time the system runs.

This could cause the symptoms you have.

[Deleted User]

Huh???

Pressure flows from high to low, no? So, how is the flue gas going to flow from a combustion chamber at .03" W.C. negative pressure in to a vessel that is either at 0 PSI to + 1.5 pounds PSIG? She said the odor increase when the boiler fires, and it is present in the mechanical room.

Kelly, if you want to "see" if there is any movement of air from the chimney to the negative pressure zone being produced by the chimney to which the boiler is connected, have your olfactory free hubby use some insense sticks (flavor of YOUR choice) to "see" the patterns of air flow around the home while the boiler is firing. If there is ANY movement of air, it should be quite obvious.

Best of luck.

ME

[Deleted User]

HMMMmmm....

YOU might be on to something Gordon.

I don't work with enough steam to be able to say one way or another, but I have seen the results of a system whereby the vacuum breaker was not breaking the vacuum, and the consequential acid corrosion that occured to the piping. Maybe her system has gone acid, and everytime the boiler fires up, it is pushing this sulpheric compound out the vents of the radiators and through the home...

Maybe she could put some oil of mint or something oderous /benign in to the boiler and see if it shows up throughout the home..

I will defer to the steam experts, but it HAS to be coming from somewhere...

ME

Bob Harper

First of all, get everyone in that house to a hospital and get tested for COHb and SO2 poisoning.

If Norm doesn't have a SO2 analyzer, most fire depts. and virtually all utilities will have a 4 gas analyzer that includes it.

Until the chimney is properly lined, you won't know if there is a shunting of gases into the home. Also, if you can get someone experienced in there with a micromanometer to conduct a Worst Case Depressurization test, that would tell you a lot.

BTW, you cannot use aluminum liner for oil--it is strictly for Cat. I gas and even at that, professionals use only stainless steel, usually with a lifetime warranty. Have the chimney pro perform a Level II inspection prior to the relining so you know what you were dealing with. Regardless, you need the liner.

There is the possibility your boiler water is polluted. When it makes steam, noxious chemicals could be released into the home by the vents. To prove that may require a Certified Industrial Hygienist, which is expensive. However, we're talking about your lives.

Get rid of that cheap UL listed CO alarm and get a professional low level CO monitor such as a CO Experts or NSI 3000.

As for the sweep who told you the Fp was ok to use with small fires is not doing you a service and clearly is going against industry standards. Ask for a Level II inspection and those results speak for themsevelves. Either it is proper for the class of service or it is not-period.

HTH,
Bob

Steamhead (in transit)

You guys might be right

if for any reason the steam piping goes into vacuum, and there's a leak in the boiler casting, it CAN pull products of combustion into the piping.

If it's a one-pipe or two-pipe air-vent system, the combustion products would then be discharged from the radiator vents on the next cycle, as well as from the main vents in the basement.

On a Vapor system that only has vents in the basement, they would be discharged there.

This is another reason not to use vacuum on steam systems, unless the air discharge is to a safe place. Maybe the designers of the Broomell, VECO, Mouat and other systems unknowingly had the right idea when they ran the air line into the chimney flue.....

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Gordy

Chimney

I agree Bob Don't know if you followed the other thread about this. The chimney inspection that was done has me a little uneasy. Either its good for a rip roarin fire or its not as you say.

To say that is the cause of the present problem I don't know. The events have developed since December, Kelly correct me if I'm wrong on this. So Something has recently changed. Breech in one of the chimney liners, or the boiler.


Gordy

V8toilet

Mark,

when the flame in the boiler shuts off the steam inside the pipes collapse and get 1700 times smaller. This creates a vacuum that can draw in the combustion gases still inside the combustion chamber. On the next cycle the gases that were drawn into the steam pipes will be expelled through the vents and cause the whole house to smell.

Why are you guys calling me Gordon?

Flood the boiler and see what happens!

Gordy

V8 see post above





Gordy

Kelly Gilbert

This could be a possibility

I think I will ask Norm if he would do this for us. I just went outside after I turned the heat up (it was on 62 for daytime use) and I see dirty white smoke coming out of the chimney. I wouldn't want to try this myself..

Thanks for the info.

Kelly Gilbert

There is NO chimney liner of any sort..

not even clay. WE were not aware of this until the chimney guys told us this. All this started in December and I don't know why.

lee_7

Did you go get tested to make sure your family is not slowly dying? This is not a matter to be waiting any longer on. This has been going on now since begining of December and who knows when your body will say enough and stop.

Please go get checked and have blood drawn.

lee_7

Sorry, double post again.

GO GET TESTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark Eatherton

V8...

I'm use to natural gas whereby there is a post purge program to blow any residual gas out of the building. Do the not have post purge sessions on oil?

And I understand the collapse and or expansion of steam, but it does NOT happen in a heart beat. It takes some time to disipate the residual pressure before it begins going the other direction.

I guess nothing is impossible.

ME

Gordy

Kelly

Your family really needs to get some medical attention. Testing to determine if there are in deed trace amounts of sulphar dioxide, or CO. Is the CO detector in action, and properly located? Is it reading anything?

Is there flue tile in the fireplace chimney? Regardless the one for the boiler should be lined as stated several times with Stainless steel. The acidic compounds from combustion of the boiler will slowly eat away the masonary. With out a clay flue tile you are right in to the masonary.

The problems you are experiencing are quite complex in deed, and could be a combination of variables that have recently happend be patient. Everyone is trying their best from the keyboard.

Kelly Gilbert

Hi,

I went to the hospital tonight and they took blood and did some tests. They said the lab doesn't have or do ANY SO2 or any sulfur tests. The other two came back negative. However, one test, the EOS blood level test, was very high and showed my body his having a severe allergic reaction to the fumes I smell and the doctor believes that this is cause of all my symptoms. My body is overly sensitive to the fumes I smell in the cellar and in the house. This explains why "the Mr." is only sneezing and coughing and I am much sicker. The only solution is to move out of the house until the problem is solved. I don't believe in reality that is going to happen. I just don't have the finances for that or anyone who I would ask to put me up.

I do appreciate all the wonderful advice and help and concern for my health and my family's health and I am very grateful to each and every one of you who has taken the time to write back with your ideas. You have restored my faith in human kind.

Will keep you posted as to what's happening. Thanks, Kelly

Larry Weingarten

A band-aid

Kelly: Dan has a saying, something vaguely along the line of "put physics up against finances and physics always wins". Your body is clearly not happy about the present living situation! As a band-aid, could the house proper be pressurized with a fan, using outdoor air to keep out any combustion byproducts? It would likely be a bit uncomfortable, but would allow you to stay in the house without getting sicker. Hospitals are NOT inexpensive these days and it's always harder to get health back than to hold onto it in the first place. We, here on The Wall are concerned.

Yours, Larry

David Nadle

Solutions

Kelly, I wonder if you might have a valid homeowner's insurance claim that could help defray the cost of fixing your chimney. It may be as simple as getting a liner but that could definitely exceed your deductible. Also you may be able to claim loss of use and get reimbursement for a motel stay while the problem is being corrected.

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks.

Thanks for the information. I doubt it, but maybe "the Mister" will look into it. Norm gave us directions on how to flood the boiler and we might give it a try tonight, if it's not too cold. I would like to get that done before the chimney guys come back again.

bigugh_4

Update

So how did the test come out?
Sent to bring the thread to the top!

Kelly Gilbert

Negative...

Just another roadblock. Now I'm back to thinking it's the chimney again....I give up. Just keeping the heat down low so the boiler doesn't go on very much and I can breathe.

Gordy

Road Blocks

Kelly don't get discouraged. These road blocks are actually ruling out variables that can help narrow things down to more specifics.

You know now the boiler does not have a breach above the water line.

You know that Norm has ruled out improper combustion, draft ect.

You know that the boiler uses an outside air supply which helps rule out exhaust fans ect. taking combustion air from the boiler.

You have installed a properly placed CO detector that is not going off....Right.

What you really don't know is the specific condition of the chimney. You have a second party looking into that so lets see what they say.

Hang in there, look at the bright side...... At least you are saving fuel

Sorry that probably was not to funny.


Gordy

Kelly Gilbert

thanks for the encouragement...

I really needed that. I really DO appreciate everyone who has been helping me. It's great to know there are people out there who care.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Have you checked the

Medical web sites, like web MD? They may have lots of information on allergies. Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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mark ransley

An alergic reaction could be mold some molds will make you ill, mold smells musty like fumes from a boiler. Laundry Bleach in a garden sprayer sprayed where there are dark areas in basement kills mold. Bleach is cheap.

A digital Co meter has a Peak Memory button, that is what you test daily. it should be zero, Co meters wont alarm until you have major immediate problems.

If Co meter peak hold function reads zero always, its likely some spilled leaking oil or mold. Even new countertops and carpet can have chemicals that outgass and make people ill.