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Homeowner angry at Viesmann
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I've never heard the term \"face cord\"
Is it possible he means one row of the front ??
4 x 4 - one row ?
I've never heard the term but It could be.
Scott
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I missed that "face", thanks Scott. Cord is 4 x 8 x 4. Face cord is anything less than that, 4x8xless than 4, according to some googling.0 -
The continuing story...
I corresponded with the poster about the problem and referred the posts and website to Harald Prell at Viessmann for review. The poster has a valid complaint about the supply chain. Viessmann should address the problem.
I still remain passionate about the company, tech support and products. Repair parts will always be required for any modern appliance. Like you, I've attempted to stock what I can to minimize disruption in service. I have my own issues about setting up "non-stocking" distributors, but that is a different subject.
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Face cord
One length (ex. 18") x 4x80 -
When I here stories like this I'm happy I stuck with oil heat.
If I ever switched to gas I would get me a nice dependable standing pilot with a basic gas valve. I rather pay a little more each year than get a heating unit that you have to get parts Fed Ex'ed. Even 1 day without heat is to much.0 -
So G
Nevere had a clogged nozzle ?
Never had a clogged filter ?
Never had a nozzle pick up some dirt and fire off to the side of the chamber ?
Never had the motor die ?
There are problems with all systems not just gas. ITs how the problem is resolved that makes the difference. In this case nobody stayed on top the of the probelm and let it slide. Thats my opinion.
Scott
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g,Do you drive a 427 Mach 1 every day? How about that 386/commodore computer?..Modcon Boiler(reliable ones like Viessmann/TT) have not been in The US very long now!!So most of the"Plumbers"( Not the ones that are on the "Wall" of course) do not understand or have the proper training/parts. Therefore we get what we got here today:What we go here today...is a failure to communicate! Or: Ask not what your Country can do for you...Ask what you can do for your country... Which in my case is to "Clean it up" and try to get off of as much fossil burning as possible/ Feasible. That is a Hard task trying not to offend or step on someones feet. Just wait a couple years loose those savings now then jump on that wagon..PS: Fuel Pricing will drive you to do it!Thank you, Richard GRAVES from Heatmeister.0 -
No one..
should be without heat for that long. No matter what brand of furnace, boiler, or otherwise. I can understand the homeowner's frustration. I don't think he needs to create a website stating that fact, but it is a free country.
Ross0 -
Of course I had some breakdowns with my oil boiler. Anything mechnical can breakdown.
Would I have to get a Nozzle Fed Ex'ed to get my boiler working??
Would I have to get a new set of electrodes or transformer Fed Ex'ed???
If I had gas heat and had a basic standing pilot gas valve and it malfunctioned would I have to Fed Ex one in???
Why buy a heating system that parts must be UPS'ed in???
500 bucks for a gas valve, plus all the aggrevation.
Where's all your savings in effeciency???
Give me a heating system that when it's 11 PM, temperature is 10 degrees and the service tech has the parts on his truck or will have the part once the shop opens in the morning. And the tech knows how to repair the unit.
Why would I want a heating system that allot of techs don't know how to work on it???0 -
comments
no matter what part, no matter what boiler, some are just "not in stock", and require shipping. I've had to order parts for every major boiler manufacturer. Standing pilots aren't allowed in most states anymore...they waste too much energy.
There are 48 wall hung boilers, at last count, available in N. America. Most techs have a familiarity with 1 or 2 types. Servicing any others will most likely require tech services of that particular company. "Reliable" is the key, and an oxymoron, in some cases. As the technology increases, the complexity increases. Mechanical (or circuitry component) failure is inevitible. I too would like every heating system to use the same parts that are on every tech's truck. That's very unlikely. And no service truck carries ALL parts for ALL equipment.
BTW, the energy efficiency comes from the boiler's modulation. It has nothing to do with a defective part. What if your oil burner required an oil pump that wasn't available locally? I've had it happen, and live in a major city.
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Premium Priced Boiler
If you buy a premium priced boiler you are entitled to expect premium service and parts availability. With the amazing ability of the Google search engine, those manufactuers that provide poor parts availability and rude customer service, do so at their own peril.0 -
g Are you a Home owner or a heating Contractor ?0 -
I was a heating contractor.
Retired.
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Ahhhh Old school.Nothing wrong with that!!But again ,Sooner or later(more sooner) some of the "dinosaurs" will disappear I have seen it in europa,Fuel cost. HM.0 -
we service "Bill's" house I'll let him know that he should return your call asap. hold your breath0 -
Whyihateviessmann.com ..HM.
I've just got of the phone with "whyihateviessmann" .com and must say it's good to hear the other side of the story. He's a nice guy and we talked for about 1 1/2 hr. I think that Viessmann should make contact with him. I Think that everybody just needs to take a deep breath and"Chill".. Richard from Heatmeister.0 -
I just found this site, and ....
Hello All
I was contacted today by Derheatmeister who is a contractor who installs Viessmann systems. During a very pleasant conversation with him, he told me about this site. I didn't start this topic here, so am not "flogging" my website. But I am the HO whose experience is on the site, and I think I have some very legit criticisms of the way Viessmann handles parts. If you bother to look at the site and read the page "Marketing advice to Viessmann" you'll see that I'm not a crank, and that I offer them some very achievable ways to improve their parts distribution that would not only make my life better, it would make YOUR lives as contractors and distributors better. I didn't buy a "world-class" boiler system to have these kinds of problems. You all seem to agree that Viessmann makes great boilers, and I AGREE with that (and say it on my site). That's why I have a Viessmann! But the parts problem is a big problem that needs to be addressed.
RE: absurd comparisons to Ford. Would you be steamed if Ford dealers weren't required to carry parts and left you stranded until the parts came from Dearborn, MI? After 5 days of waiting, might you not be tempted to contact Ford and ask where you parts were? Give me a break. I never tried to contact the CEO. I tried to contact sales and marketing staff.
RE: contractor not having parts. My HVAC guy is the same one who installed the system in my home. He has some Viessmann parts in stock, but had never had a gas valve fail, so didn't have one. He has repeatedly asked Viessmann's rep and his local distributor if Viessmann could create a parts "suitcase" of essential repair parts, based on Viessmann's service experience with their boilers. Nope. Other companies do this (as stated above), but not Viessmann. I assure you my HVAC contractor now has a spare gas valve.
RE: contractors ordering parts directly from Viessmann. Viessmann does this in many other markets, including Canada ... why not in the US? I would have been without heat for around 24 hours if Viessmann had shipped the valve directly to the contractor. But no: it's a clunky antiquated parts distribution system that actually rewarded the non-stocking distributor who botched the parts order! Tell me how a non-stocking distributor adds value to the parts distribution network and exactly why he should get a slice of the profit. And if you've got an answer for that, please reveal if you're a non-stocking distributor!
I agree with the poster who said that no HO should be without heat for 5 days and that everyone dropped the ball on this one. Whose responsibility is that? Ultimately, it's Viessmann's ... their name is on the boiler, and their reputation is under discussion here. Viessmann has obviously no parts inventory criteria for distributors. That would be OK if Viessmann had an excellent parts distribution system, or paid some 3rd party company to manage one for them. But the fact is, they don't. And that's a big problem that only Viessmann can fix.
So that's my two cents. Thanks to everyone who has contacted me because of this topic on this forum, most especially Paul and Richard. I've had extensive correspondence with Paul over this issue, and a variety of other business topics, much to my enjoyment. And my phone conversation with Richard today was very pleasant and friendly, and certainly a most unexpected effect of my website.
Note that I have yet to hear from Viessmann, nor from the distributor who botched the parts order (or is it that Viessmann botched it???). It has been an interesting learning experience for me to find that others have problems with Viessmann's parts distribution system and just suck it up and maintain very costly parts inventories to cover for Viessmann. Nice deal for Viessmann, eh?
Regards,
Dan
p.s. I'm surprised that people in the heating industry have never heard of a face cord of wood. It's 4x8x1 log deep. It's around 1/3 of a cord. We have a fireplace that's more decorative than functional, and wasn't intended to heat the house. It's NOT a wood stove, and its efficiency is obviously terrible. Burning it 24/7 for 5 1/2 days burned almost 2/3 of a "real" cord. Note that my website says that I paid my neighbor to help take down standing dead trees to replace the fireplace wood ... that's the $90 cited. Our normal winter stock of fireplace wood is only 2 face cords. That gets us through a winter of a couple fireplace fires each week. Our house is well-insulated (built in 2006), and we used 7 electric space heaters (2 loaned by the HVAC guy) to do the bulk of the heating during the Viessmann outage. Not all those were room heat, since we had to keep plumbing warm too.0 -
\"stocking Wholesaler\"
Dan,
You have some interesting points. We almost exclusively install Viessmann and have been for over 5 years. Unfortunately I feel the blame falls on the NON-stocking wholesaler's! We work with the big "F" They refuse to stock anything with Viessmann on the label! Viessmann is great about getting the parts out ASAP, all the wholesaler has to do is ask for it. This is a constant battle with us and the wholesaler.
I dont believe Viessmann has mis-represented themselves, they have the parts in-stock and are always willing to ship ASAP with "no-heat" situations.
Marc0 -
Hey Marc
Hi Marc
So why should you as a contractor have to depend on a non-stocking distributor to get parts? A big part of my beef with Viessmann is that they restrict access to parts ordering to these distributors who don't care enough about the product to stock parts for the field. Wouldn't it be easier for you if you could call or go online with Viessmann and order the parts to be shipped directly to you? That's the way it works in Canada and Germany.
What's the point of the distributor in terms of product service? If they don't care enough to either stock parts or properly handle an emergency order, why exactly do they get paid in this distribution channel?
Viessmann should either sell and ship parts directly to the contractor OR they should hire a 3rd party company to handle their parts distribution for them. They're trying to run parts through a very inefficient sales channel that's designed to sell complete new boiler systems ... not parts.
Again, my point is that only Viessmann can change this system, so it's ultimately Viessmann's problem.
Regards, Dan0 -
Parts wholesalers...
It's all a bean counter's game these days. If the computer says your particular part doesn't get sold very often it won't be held in stock. All wholesalers have been trimming their inventories for years now. Things you would think should be on the shelf because they seem like such a common thing are no longer readily available because the wholesaler doesn't want to tie up his money in a part that will sit there for years before it actually sells. For example, I know a place that makes a felt pen mark on parts boxes every year when they inventory. I got a specific style of thermostat from them once that had 11 pen marks on the box. That part had been on their shelf for 11+ years. So I don't like it anymore than anyone else but you can't blame them. It's just the way things are being done now. The days of a wholesaler keeping one of everything in stock "just in case" are gone.
If your contractor is worth his salt, he bought two of them.
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Spot On
You are spot on MPF, with the financial institutions playing a major role in inventory it is almost impossible for most distributors to stock heavy on parts, unless they are showing turns. If a part hasn't sold in more than a year the distributor determines it a non moving item and either returns it or makes it non-stock not allowing replenishment. It's sad but true. I used to use some Viessmann, Buderus and other specialty boilers but have really gone back to products I can fix fairly easily with Universal Honeywell parts. My life is a lot less complicated, I'm certainly not busting on Viessmann, they make a good product. It comes back to, " If you buy a Mercedes you have to bring it to a Mercedes dealer, buy a Ford and you can fix it almost anywhere ". Higher end products are always magnificent until they break, that will never change.
I'm going through a situation with my Miele dishwasher right now, no one has parts, only one service company in the area and the parts are three weeks out. The unit is only a year old.
In the world of the big box distributor this will only get worse, it's all about the turns not the support. Most distributors these days throw everything back on the manufacturer for support but would also scream bloody murder if a manufacturer set up a POS for parts on their website.
I miss the days of the local appliance dealer that had a stock room of dusty parts and one part would work on 10 different models.
We really are a disposable society
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That day is already here!
We first ran into one of these about 1.5-years ago and thought Lowes would stock parts. We will run for DIY parts if the DIY'er agrees to pay for our time, so off we went AFTER the Lowes folks assured us they had the reverse-thread thermocouple in stock. Turned out they did not. In fact, none of the Lowes within 50-miles had one in stock, although one in a neighboring town (45-minutes one-way) said they did & the HO ran for the part - another wasted trip. We've since been offering a BW water heater replacement or referring the DIY'ers to this site & then installing a replacement water heater because Lowes still does not stock the part. Makes Dan's situation look like a walk in the park!
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/05/whirlpool_water_heater.html0 -
No beef
Yo Q-MAN,
Don't shoot the messenger. I merely cross-posted the link to the angry homeowners website. Thought it would be interesting to see what the pros thought.
Bob
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Time on this site...
The Question Man,
Been reading this site for years and Oil TechTalk as well(since the 90's) found this site through OTT.
I use my REAL NAME not some ubiquitous THE QUESTION MAN moniker.
BTW - I'm not the homeowner who created the site.
Bob
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Parts Company
We may see a new mutated hydronics distributor evolve that will only stock parts. Johnstone may be on to something.
Maybe someone should start a web based company that could assure next day air parts service for pre-determined manufacturers. You can get a belt for your Electrolux a hundred different places by Googling it, wouldn't it be great to have a parts "Source". In reality the hydronics market is probably just to small.0 -
yes we are...
I used to turn a few extra bucks fixing window A/Cs in my younger more foolish days. Last time I checked, which was a few years ago, the compressor I needed, my price, was MORE than buying a whole new unit.
I was thinking of Mercedes myself. I used to do part time handyman stuff for this lawyer. He had a 1985 gray market Mercedes sitting in his garage. 8 cylinder, which they were not importing to the US at the time. $50,000 car back then. He needed a distributor cap. The only place that had it was the dealer and it cost $100. Meanwhile the one on my Dodge Duster cost $6.95. Funny note, we're doing 160MPH down the highway after this tune up and he says, "You want to go faster?" I says, "No!"
I DO believe, if you, as a contractor, are going to deal in the exotic stuff, you should research the parts situation and make sure you have what you need for emergency situations. It's all good to go around and say "Woo hoo, I sell the best in the biz!" but you should be able to support it as well. I was just at Viessmann's warehouse in Warwick, they showed me their parts dept. I was impressed with what they've done to control it. They are right up to date.
I still believe the HO would have better spent his energy finding things out from Viessmann like, "What other Viessmann licensed contractors are in my area?" and then calling them seeing if they happen to have the valve.
If he was my customer, I would have done it myself.0 -
might?
This is a private company that does very well.
http://www.parts4heating.com/
http://www.heatmaker.com/
Noel0 -
MPF..And that is why I as a "little Guy" Stock Three "spare" Boilers.0 -
This kind of 3rd-party parts fulfillment company already exists, and there are some huge players who do it really well. Caterpillar uses FedEx Logistics Services to manage their parts system. Any Cat dealer or fleet owner can access an on-line database and place an order 24/7. A FedEx employee in Memphis picks the part from a FedEx-managed warehouse and gives it priority 9:00 am delivery next day including Saturdays. This has the added benefit of lowering inventory costs throughout the distribution network since parts can be pooled in a single location, thus eliminating the "dead stock" problem of the bean counters.
So why doesn't Viessmann do something like this for contractors? Are they that afraid of their distributors in the US who apparently add little or no value to their products? Why don't Viessmann contractors DEMAND this of Viessmann?0 -
Hi Dan,
I wouldn't have started a website to get my point across like you have done but if it works then I applaud the ingenuity.
I posted on this site a couple of months ago about parts availability and found resolution because of the above and beyond service of the Viessmann rep agency in Wisconsin. Apparently the non-stocking distributor problem is not a local problem.
Like you, I still believe in the product but it's obviously a niche product that will likely not justify complete parts stocking by most contractors or distributors. That being said the 3rd party parts supplier idea sounds like an excellent one. Whatever it takes to keep the parts available without forcing every contractor to sit on an inventory of expensive parts.
I sincerely hope that with the pushing from the excellent contractors that frequent this site and install Viessmann products that something will change. I had been singing the unrestrained praises of the Vitodens to anyone who would listen until the parts issues slowed me down. Now it's a very qualified recommendation. Fast, dependable parts availability would change that back. Like Michigan, heat is critical in WI when it is double digits below zero F.
I salute the contractors here that carry all the parts (or complete boilers!) on hand to fix anything they sell - especially the ones that offered to ship the parts for me when our system was down - but is that the most reasonable and efficient way to operate in the day of next day air shipping for everything from pliers, to books, to a Land's End shirt?0 -
Dan,
Unfortunately this is a problem with most manufacturers. The wholesalers refuse to stock parts for just about any type of boiler!! Heck, they dont even stock parts for installing Hydronic heating systems (pumps, expansion tanks, ect.) I will still put the blame on the wholesaler, UNTIL we can purchase direct from the manufacturers, The US market has the middle man (wholesaler) which frankly does little but place orders and add their %.
Marc0 -
wholesaler?? Contractor??
The big culprit here is the wholesaler I call them Transfer houses. This is a problem with EVERY product i sell both domestic and foreign. The wholesalers simply refuse to carry parts. I can't even get alot of parts for gas hot air furnaces,although the transfer house will gladly ship me 10 furnaces tomorrow. On A/C systems we couldn't get condensor fans that where in warrantee.
There are two solutions 1: Contractors you should simply REFUSE to purchase your equipment from transfer houses that do not stock parts.
2.Manufacturers MUST REQUIRE that the transfer house have parts for what they sell.
Pressure from both parties will force the transfer houses into doing the right thing.
Transfer houses quit your endless crying about having to turn your inventory your telling me you stock 200 boilers and yet you can't have 1 of each part when many of those parts fit several sizes of boiler EX. ignitor,rollout switch etc. If you really don't have the money then fine stock 100 boilers and spend the rest on parts!!!!!. Years ago parts where not a problem and you guys made plenty of money why now in the last 5 years have the parts dissapeared????0 -
Good conversation.
And it's clear that this is frustrating for you. Along the same lines, would you say that a contractor should stock at least one of each part for the brand of boilers he sells?Retired and loving it.0 -
I'd say...
yes if he knows getting parts might be a problem for that boiler. Which is something he should check into before commiting to the product.
You can be darn sure that was one of my questions when I was getting involved with that Italian HP. Turns out all the parts for it are made here in the US. They just assemble them in italy.0 -
I agree to disgree
Joel you are a 100% right but it will never happen, the minority would migrate to the distributor who charged more and supported the products by stocking parts, but the majority would go still go for the price and let someone else deal with the parts later. The distributor climate of the big getting bigger and the small getting bought is only making this worse, when the distributor carries five different boilers lines and has the attitude of " we have that too " it doesn't look good.
Maybe we will see things go full circle and start to see small mom and pop distributors come back to life where they only one main line, a back up line and supported the products they sold. Imagine going into a distributor with a and having them solve your problem instead of giving you the Reps number. I know there are still a few out there that do have really good inside people who are savvy with the products they sell but they are becoming few and far between.0 -
parts
This is crazy. The DEALER is responsible for stocking parts for the boiler lines he chooses to sell. It is not the responsibility of the mfg. or wholesaler!!
If you can't afford to stock the common repair parts, then don't sell the product.0 -
Ever see a broke down Roll's on the side of the Road? HM.0 -
Not crazy
They're called wholesale SUPPLY houses.
If I sell 30-40 a year and the wholesaler sells 600, it would behoove him to stock parts. Then he'd have them for the other 40 contractors who might need one.
If I have to stock parts for everything, I don't need a wholesaler. Let me buy from the factory instead.0 -
Tony
You are so right. What do I need a supply house for? Why pay them to do nothing?0 -
No but...
I saw a Mercedes smashed into a Jaguar once. Palm Beach, where else? 0
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