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Carbon in my home
Comments
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JVM's Post
I was reading over the messages and saw the one JVM wrote about this being 100% DUST. I wish that was the problem, but it's not.
I would invite any of the contractors here to come take a peek if you are ever in the area. By seeing this is the only way you can understand the severity of the problem.
Thanks all0 -
Dee...
After a length converstaion with a person I consider of high calibur expertise, I'd suggest you rent an ozone generator and see if that takes care of it. Evidently, the response is immediate and quite noticeable.
Beest of luck in your quest.
ME0 -
Soot/Dust
Well let me jump in one more time, I have read all the thoughts of Dee's problem. The only thing I haven't read about was if Dee has a Carbon Monoxide alarm in her home.
If it is soot then there has to Be Carbon Monoxide in the air. Dee try a Carbon Monoxide alarm and see if it read any levels of Carbon Monoxide.0 -
Went to a \"carbonized\" home today.
Does anyone have a lab that can test what this substance may be?
I refuse to even ponder what may be causing this person's "sooting" problem until the "soot" is tested. We were called in today after 9 other "professionals" were invited to scratch their heads.
I made a preliminary inspection, but for sure, the only way we'll find out what the problem is, will be to have the substance tested.
Please, whomever may have a testing facility telephone number, please forward it to me at acorelli@optonline.net
Thanks,
Al Corelli
VP, Mike Fisher P&H&AC (and now, Soot Sleuths!)0 -
JVM
Yes we do have a Carbon Monoxide monitor. Unfortunately it doesn't have a read out. We had South Jersey Gas out to put in a new gas meter a few weeks ago and the appliances were checked for CM. All thankfully was fine.
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Al Corelli....Carbonized Home.....
Al,
Please let me know what you found in the house you went to today. Also can you tell me where in the home you found the Carbon and how much of it?
Thanks,
Dee0 -
shopping guide
Thanks for the kind words Hot Rod!
Gang, if you want to stop wasting time playing 84 questions, get it tested.
Al & Dee, use my post as a reference and shop around for a Certified Industrial Hygienist. Don't waste your time with engineering firms unless they have an I.H. who is intimately familiar with surface analysis esp. Black Particulate Matter. Stop calling it soot until you have a lab report confirming that's what it is. One of my "soot" cases turned out to be charred food particles from their cooking techniques. Tiny charred foor particles all over the house mixed with aerosolized fat droplets. Can be mold, dust--tons of things. Again, even if it is soot, the type of soot can determine whether gaseous versus solid/ liquid fuel source. Then its a process of elimination. Each appliance must be thoroughly inspected then tested. Can use CO, CO2, particle counters, all sorts of methods.
Sample before you initiate any kind of chemical warefare such as ozone. Don't ruin your evidence.
Most homeowners stay in a state of denial even when told what it is. They refuse to believe the lab report. Just warning you because once you get the report, you'll still doubt it. You can't doubt a gc/ mass spec and PLM.0 -
Bob.......shopping guide
Hey Bob,
I got a number for an Industrial Hygenist. I will try and call tomorrow and see what I can find out. I will let you all know what happens.
Keep your fingers crossed.
Thanks,
Dee0 -
We found discoloration above all heat emitters (copper baseboard). large concentration behind the fridge, but this may just be dust. Also, there were concentrations in the upper corners of the stairway, and at the tops of the walls. The fiberglass shower stall also has a film of this same substance.
An idea popped up in my head today. This person smokes. Normally in a home where someone smokes, you would find evidence of yellowing that, for as long as I can remember, was assumed to be nicotine. Perhaps, this new substance we are finding are the other pollutants in the new "low tar& nicotine" cigarettes?0 -
Al.........
For the record no one has smoked in my house for the last 8 years..0 -
We have two smokers here. One regular old Winston and one some weird high tek menthol thin dealio. We have no carbon. We burn candles too and its so dusty here because route 7 is under construction about 3000 feet from our house. I have an old boiler that vents up a masonary chimney and starts with a bang when its windy. If I turn on my whole house exhaust fan the house goes negative enough to open doors in the basemnent. Yet, no carbon. This is weirdola.0 -
ChasMan
Hey ChasMan,
I know what you are saying and I know quite a number of people who smoke(and heavy smokers at that) and they burn 3 and 4 candles. Most of all they aren't house people .....meaning they never dust, vacuum...etc. Their houses are black/carbon free. That is the depressing part. I have to keep up with this mess or Lord only knows how bad it will be to clean up.
Hopefully I will find my answer to my mystery here. Because if I can't find it here then it's a hopeless case. As I said before i've had more information here then I had in the last 11 or so years.
Thanks0 -
Soot Identification and Time Lines
Candles again.
Dee you've said that you are now using a 'candle warmer' to, I presume, melt
scented candles and that you do not burn candles anymore. When you melt the
candles
with this candle warmer, what happens to the wax? Does the level of wax stay the
same or does it gradually all disappear so requiring you to add a new candle to the
candle warmer? If wax is disappearing, where does it go? Another question might
be about the scent that the melted candles are giving off. If this scent/perfume is
emitted by the melted wax does it ultimately condense onto cold surfaces?
I wonder if an experiment might provide some answers? Perhaps a glass bowl
placed over the candle warmer to see what kind of deposits do or do not form on
the glass bowl.
Bob Harper stated: "As for candle soot, yes, one candle can trash a house. The
soot is from unburned wax that is vaporized. We can tell if they burned candles in a
home years ago. Its still there."
Bob, if you're out there, can a 'candle warmer' vaporize wax and create this type
of 'soot' problem?
It seems clear that finding the answer will require a very methodical approach and
again as Bob Harper has said, accurate identification of the 'soot' substance must
be the first requirement. With *accurate* identification of the 'soot' I suspect
that determining the source and eliminating that source will be straight forward.
But if identifying the source or substance isn't possible what then?
I think that creating a written 'Time Line' of significant events would help to
communicate and perhaps zero in on the ultimate cause of this problem. A time line
perhaps in a 'flow chart' style starting perhaps "1989 Purchased Lot sized #### feet X #### feet on site of former Peach Orchard. 1989 Construction begins on #### Square foot home (ranch style, split level, multi story, type of construction etc.). 1990 Moved into home etc.
Note details on the time line such what equipment (range, stove top, range fan, bathroom fans, heating equipment, fireplaces) was installed originally and what and when any of it has been replaced. Note the year you started burning candles and the year you stopped burning candles. Note the proximity of neighbors, the locations of local industries, highways etc. Document the Details.
When trying to solve problems that have been ongoing I start to forget exactly
what is and what is not a proven fact. I start to remember other peoples opinions
and observations and even my own casual observations as being facts. But if I've
not seen and documented the condition myself or if there is no recorded data and
no documented evidence of observations I feel I must treat reported 'facts' as
suspect and possibly misleading. A blower door test on the house recording all of the data that such a test would provide would be factual data. A pressurization test of the forced air heating system duct work, with a 'fogger' could provide factual data. A combustion analyzer with print out capability would provide factual data of what gasses and what concentrations of gasses are in the house. Pictures of the 'soot' in the attic, pictures of the way the flue in the attic was sealed. Pictures of everything that may be relevant. Gathering a body of provable, documented facts and data may be what you need to solve this problem. Collection, documentation and organization of such data may be tedious but it may be the best method of tracking down a difficult problem.
I think you are near to the answer and will soon have a solution for this problem.
Gordon
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Gordon
Hi Gordon,
Yes I now melt candles. I was told soot/carbon comes from the burning of the "wick". Thats why I stopped lighting the wick and now "melt them in warmers".
As to your question of the melted candle..... Yes the candle wax stays the same. It does NOT evaporate. The jar is as full as when it was purchased. After awhile (many times of melting over and over) the candle loses it's scent. I then trash the whole candle (jar & wax). I'm told this is the safest way to have the candle scent without the burning and thus the carbon/soot.
I really hope we are close to an answer. It's been a long time coming.
Also I've found the name of a Industrial Hygenist as Bob recommended. I called today and left her a message. I'm not sure what will happen, but as soon as I hear something I will let everyone here know.
As I said before I will keep everyone here posted as to what happens ........as I truly appreciate all the help.
Thanks again,
Dee
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Contact EMSL labs
Dee,
We have used EMSL labs and attended one of their seminars on mold and they know their stuff. They have labs in different parts of the US. You can "google" them and get the information you need as far as where to send a sample.
They will send you a kit to take the sample and instructions on what to do.
Good luck.
Tom Atchley0 -
> For the last 10 1/2 years we've had a carbon
> problem. There is carbon everywhere. We've had
> our home redone over 3 times now. The house is
> only 16 1/2 years old. We noticed the problem
> after we were in the house about 6 years. We've
> replaced the heater with a high eff. 2 pipe
> system and a host of other things. We only have
> gas heat and a dryer. We just put a new electric
> oven back in. We had electric when the house was
> first built and after 6 years we put in gas.
> About 6 months ago we thought maybe the range was
> the key problem since thats the only thing we
> changed after we were in the house. We have had
> a million different people come through and all
> agreed it WASN'T the heater. No one could come up
> with a logical explanation. Some blamed the ONE
> CANDLE I used to burn, but a representative from
> the Healh Dept. said that for me to have the
> quantity of carbon that I have "I'd have to be
> having a seance with about 50 candles or more
> burning" for us to have this much carbon. About 3
> years ago I called a new Heating Company in. They
> searched and finally went into my attic where he
> found black insulation. He said the carbon was
> coming from the flue. He said by putting in a new
> 2 pipe heating system we would be using all
> OUTSIDE air and thus would end our problem. Well
> it is 3 yrs + later and we still have this
> carbon. I wish someone could help us with this
> problem. I've contacted so many people for help.
> The EPA wouldn't come out for indoor air they
> told me. Since then I've tried to contact my
> Congressman (Rob Andrews) and his secretary said
> she'd get back to me when she had some
> information. It's been 9 months since our last
> email and i've heard NOTHING. Hard as it might
> be to believe this is the SHORT VERSION of this
> story. If anyone has any kind of information to
> help with this nightmare of a problem we'd
> appreciate it very much.
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> For the last 10 1/2 years we've had a carbon
> problem. There is carbon everywhere. We've had
> our home redone over 3 times now. The house is
> only 16 1/2 years old. We noticed the problem
> after we were in the house about 6 years. We've
> replaced the heater with a high eff. 2 pipe
> system and a host of other things. We only have
> gas heat and a dryer. We just put a new electric
> oven back in. We had electric when the house was
> first built and after 6 years we put in gas.
> About 6 months ago we thought maybe the range was
> the key problem since thats the only thing we
> changed after we were in the house. We have had
> a million different people come through and all
> agreed it WASN'T the heater. No one could come up
> with a logical explanation. Some blamed the ONE
> CANDLE I used to burn, but a representative from
> the Healh Dept. said that for me to have the
> quantity of carbon that I have "I'd have to be
> having a seance with about 50 candles or more
> burning" for us to have this much carbon. About 3
> years ago I called a new Heating Company in. They
> searched and finally went into my attic where he
> found black insulation. He said the carbon was
> coming from the flue. He said by putting in a new
> 2 pipe heating system we would be using all
> OUTSIDE air and thus would end our problem. Well
> it is 3 yrs + later and we still have this carbon.
Dee,
House is 16 1/2 Years old. No problems for first 6 years approx. Carbon for last 10 1/2 years. New furnace installed 3 years ago. If this information is correct, then for a period of time equal to 13 1/2 years the old furnace was in your home. You said new furnace was installed 3 years ago. So for the 13 1/2 year time period the old furnace started going array, some time after the first 6 years you lived there. That would indicate that for 7 1/2 years,your old furnace MAY have been producing soot into the attic. Quite along time but it is sketchy exactly when it started to do this.
How many square feet is your house?
What is type of construction? example, Ranch, Bilevel, Trilevel, Multi story, A frame ect.
You stated that no neighbors have this problem in their home.
How close proximity are your neighbors?
While it is true that fireplaces, candles, ciggies, cigars, pipes, improperly burning fuel appliances produce soot. My wife burns candles (high quality), there are smokers in the house, and we have four wood burning masonary fireplaces. We do not have this kinda problem.
Could be thanks to radiant heat though. I believe the answer is in the attic.
Gordy0 -
Dee,
I said nothing about candles. I think the problem has something to do with the attic. Maybe some of the Wallies can get a committee together to consult. Just thinking.0 -
soot in the attic
Dee
If you had a dead cow rotting in the attic would you smell it.. Very much so, well if you have a quantity af soot in the attic it will need to be cleaned out. It is powerfull, ugly, fine, persistant and cacinogenic. When you come in from outside, having been in the fresh air for awhile, you can sense it, smell it, taste it. If you have a dirt basement or crawl space which has been contaminated with soot, same clean up will apply. Wish I could come and have a look with you. I would like to see what a CO tester would read. Iwill be watching for the solution when you find it. Good luck.
George L0 -
Attic
My money is in the attic. If the time lines are correct the old furnace was spewing soot for some time in a 7 year period. See my 4-2-06 post clear up top. The way the tin knockers use stud bays for cold air returns it could be pulling the air in through the top plates from the attic amongst other penetrations.
Gordy0 -
filter /duct liner
I,ve been reading this post as many other has any one checked or asked if your ductwork is internally lined and how about the blower compartment of your furnace is the originally glue on insulation still there?Also has any one check to make sure all your supply and return duct work are properly sized and sealed one open or unhooked return take off could cause alot of dust /debrie in a clean house .Has any one check your home with a mangahelic to see if it's in a postive or negitive pressure if negitive that could answer some questions .Peace and good luck and keep posting i know i would like to know what goes clammyR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating0 -
Gordy
Hi,
The house is approx. 2200 sq. ft. It is a 4 level split. One house is about 50 feet and another is about 30 feet.
Dee0 -
G. Lyons
Hi George,
After reading your email today (4/5/06)I called an Insulation Company and am waiting to hear from them to schedule an appt. for them to come see my attic. I am going to get a price to have them REMOVE all the insulation and blow in all new. I have to agree with you that there must be quite a bit of carbon up there.
The heating company who put the new heater in had said "everytime the old heater was turned off and on he could see the carbon coming out of the flue". So if this was true there must be quite a bit of carbon still up there, and thus my favorite word comes back to haunt me. RESIDUAL.... I'm praying this might be the answer to my prayers and that all the carbon thats still coming all through the house is from that.
I promise I will keep posting messages up until I find the solution.
Also its funny that some areas of the house seem to have more carbon than others....for example..in my kitchen we used to have beveled glass (mirror) as our back splash under the cabinets. We just took it down and replaced it with tile. The kitchen is very small and the area of the corner cabinets, the wall behind the beveled glass, was the blackest of all...Just like in the basement...one side is finished and the other houses my heater, hot water tank, washer, dryer.....etc.....some of the walls behind the insulation is blacker than others......some have almost nothing......The blackest places are the closest to the heater.
I'm hoping the Insulation company calls soon and I can get this started and hopefully solve the problem.
Thank you very much for your post.
I'll keep everyone up to date.
Thanks so much....
Dee0 -
Industrial Hygenist.
Also I called and left a message with an Industrial Hygenist on March 31st. I have not received a call back.
I'm hoping the Insulation is the answer.
Fingers are crossed..........thanks all0 -
Hi Dee,
If it is indeed carbon and not mold, why remove the insulation at all? Just blow some cellulose on top of what you have and enjoy the increase in insulation.0 -
Man, an insulation company, yikes.. Well, Just my 2 cents.. Do this when it is warm, not hot or cold. And after the insulation is removed, before they do anything, go up there and look for yourself to make sure it is cleaned out. Also, have them spray foam around the top plates and all other openings to seal them. If you have a vapour barrier up there make sure they didnt fill it full of holes.. And then make sure they put in New insulation rather than put your old insulation back.
Not that I don't trust insulation contractors or anything.0 -
Insulation replacement.......
Hi All,
I just had the gentleman from the Insulation Company leave. He is going to call me later with an estimate.
He said he does not think that is my problem because once the flue was sealed off the attic is now static. He said Unless someone is up there stirring it around it isn't the problem. He also said if there is all that carbon up there it will stay there as long as it's not moved around.
All my hopes were dashed with this man saying this.
We may still do the replacing as we are going to get the estimate. It is 75 cents a sq. ft to remove it and 1.15 I think he said to replace it.
Anything else you guys can think of please let me know.
Dee0 -
Do you have a choice between cellulose and fiberglass? Cellulose is almost always the better choice.0 -
Dee, I'm just a homeowner like yourself, not a professional type who knows anything specific about your problem. But, I think you're getting away from what you need to do. Namely, be aggressive in getting the industrial hygenist to look at your situation and identify the chemical composition of the "carbon." I think you've had it tested once, but unless they did a full-on chemical constituent analysis, those results should be considered inconclusive. A full analysis of the chemical compounds in the material will tell you the source and guide what action is needed to fix it. You absolutely must approach this problem scientifically and logically, and the pros here have suggested just that. Anything else is wasted time and money.
The insulation guy is probably wrong about about the attic being static. Based on what I've followed here, if it is in the attic, then it probably IS being stirred around. The pros here have suggested your house might have a negative pressure or "stack effect" problem. If true, then the "someone up there stirring it around" is moving air.
It may ultimately turn out that you have tons of carbon dust in your attic that is part or all of the problem. But the solution could involve a number of things that may or may not involve replacing your attic insulation. Things that leap to mind are correcting the "stack effect" if present, or taking additional sealing measures for the ductwork. Why potentially waste time and money on insulation if no one is certain that's where the problem originates?
The pros on this site recently helped me solve what should have been a very obvious and simple problem with my heating system. Unfortunately, none of the parade of professionals who actually looked at the system correctly identified the source of the problem and the simple fix required. So I know how it can go. The pros on this site truly know their stuff. If they say to attack your problem methodically starting at square one, then by all means do it. Good luck.0 -
Industrial Hygenist.
Ok guys I have tried a couple things but I think I agree with Rob and I'm gonna take the advise of several others here and get an Industrial Hygenist to check this "substance" out first. I called one from the Drexel University Dept. of Safety & Health on 3/31/06 and heard nothing as of today 4/6/06 so I gave her another call and asked her to please call me back even if she can't help me. A phone call either way is what I asked of her. Hopefully I hear something soon and If not I will find someone else.
I'll keep everyone up to date.
Thanks,
Dee0 -
Gordy may well have diagnosed the problem.
Sounds like there's a good chance this is the result of some problem in the past: seriously malfunctioning equipment; accident or even malicious actions. Your forced air system could well be sucking "old" contaminates via the returns and redepositing via the supplies.
I know this is a long-shot, but if you've ever opened or had an accident with a laser printer toner cartridge, you'll know that the carbon-based toner is absurdely fine, and slightly sticky.
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Confused?
Just called the contractor who's name I gave you a few weeks ago that solved this very problem and you have not called them. I would bet the Industrial Hygenist will tell you they don't deal with this kind of a problem or charge you thousands of dollars to check it out. They will still tell you it is probably candles and you will be right back where you started, less a few thousands dollars. I have seen the problem, I have had the materials testing by a IAQ lab(couldn't identify the source), but more than that I have helped several contractors resolve the homeowners problem.0 -
Industrial Hygienist
I agree with the last post. I am a certified industrial hygienist (CIH), and while a CIH could tell you what the material is, they won't be able to repair or correct the problem.0 -
Greg
Thanks Greg for your post. Jim said exactly that and I do have alot of faith in what he's telling me. He has put me in contact with someone in my area who I spoke with and I feel very confident in.
I will keep the posts coming as I find out anything new.
Again Greg thank you for confirming what Jim told me. I had called an Industrial Hygenist and she never got back to me....maybe thats why...
Dee0 -
Soot Identification Project
The following is copied from
http://www.georgiaaiha.org/newsletteroct00.html
Start:
Can you identify cases of soot accumulation?
Home builders, insurance companies, and others have been receiving calls for several years about the accumulation of a black material in carpeting, on walls, and on plastic outlets, switches, kitchen appliances, etc. In many cases, the discoloring agent has been identified as soot, and in some cases has been shown to come from candles or oil lamps burned by home occupants. In other cases, no source has been identified. Some homeowners have raised health concerns about exposure to particulate matter in the indoor environment.
Under sponsorship of the Air-conditioning and Refrigeration Technology Institute (ARTI), ENERGEN Consulting of Germantown, MD is conducting a project aimed at identifying the true causes of this condition. This project will include interviews with a number of homeowners by phone, and site visits to about 10 homes.
If you know of cases of discoloration and/or soot accumulation, and especially if you can provide the name and phone number of homeowners who have experienced the condition, the Black Soot Deposition Research Project would like to hear from you. The information will be used for research data collection only, and will be kept absolutely confidential.
To contribute contacts, or for more information, contact Dan Cautley, P.E., in Washington, DC at 202-244-2488. His fax number is 202-244-2314 and e-mail address dwcautley@mindspring.com
End:
Perhaps Dan Cautley can provide you with some resource materials and contacts who may be able to identify the source of the 'soot' problem in your home.
The solution must start with positive identification and definition of the problem. The 'soot' is a symptom of the real problem and the solution should be clear once the source is known.
The brainstorming in this thread has considered many interesting thoughts, possibilities and potential solutions but without better data surely none of us can guarantee that our solution is the correct one.
Gordon
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Just read through all this (SE)
Problems of this nature can drive you bonkers. My humble opinion is to most definitely get the substance analyzed by a lab in order to identify it 100% accurately. Knowing what the gunk consists of is your first clue to tracking down the source of your misery. (You must be in misery because you sound like the kind of housekeeper my wife is. Her day is ruined if the house is dirty)
I would like to know if the house has an attached garage. If so, is there by any chance a heat duct that opens into it?0 -
S. Ebels
Hi
No there isn't an attached garage, and dirty is an understatement. Hopefully soon it will end.
Thanks0 -
no \"carbon\" in the home?
Hi Bob,
No one has smoked in my home. I was told what you described, but it didn't apply because no one smoked in my house.
Dee0 -
Gordy
Hi Gordy,
We were told it was the old heater and we had a new one installed that was vented OUTSIDE and using NO INSIDE air. Several months later we had the carbon back again. All that money spent on a new heater and problem wasn't solved.
Dee0 -
Clammy
Yes these things were all checked. I am telling you there were more people through my home during this time trying to figure out the problem.
No of the suggestions were fruitful.0
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