Carbon in my home

Bob Harper

Try this test:
take a clean cotton ball wetted with rubbing alcohol and scrub some windows.

If you smoke, there are traces of cellose, nicotine, and tobacco char in the home. If you melt candles, you are vaporizing some of the fuel. You may not see a level change in the wax but trust me some is being aerosolized. If you can smell it, its getting all over the house.

Go check out the blower in your furnace. Is it only a little dusty or is it gunked up with goo?

If you heat or burn "stuff" in your home, it doesn't disappear. It can remain in there forever, even if professionally cleaned. As houses get tighter, "stuff" cools and plates out on cold exterior walls, esp. windows. It is attracted electrostatically to plastic such as switch plates, kitchen utensils and reefer gaskets. It can also deposit just from impaction and Brownian motion.

As before, identify what it is first. That will direct you to the source. Then you can figure on how it got distributed.

Dee

Carbon in my home

For the last 10 1/2 years we've had a carbon problem. There is carbon everywhere. We've had our home redone over 3 times now. The house is only 16 1/2 years old. We noticed the problem after we were in the house about 6 years. We've replaced the heater with a high eff. 2 pipe system and a host of other things. We only have gas heat and a dryer. We just put a new electric oven back in. We had electric when the house was first built and after 6 years we put in gas. About 6 months ago we thought maybe the range was the key problem since thats the only thing we changed after we were in the house.
We have had a million different people come through and all agreed it WASN'T the heater. No one could come up with a logical explanation. Some blamed the ONE CANDLE I used to burn, but a representative from the Healh Dept. said that for me to have the quantity of carbon that I have "I'd have to be having a seance with about 50 candles or more burning" for us to have this much carbon. About 3 years ago I called a new Heating Company in. They searched and finally went into my attic where he found black insulation. He said the carbon was coming from the flue. He said by putting in a new 2 pipe heating system we would be using all OUTSIDE air and thus would end our problem. Well it is 3 yrs + later and we still have this carbon.
I wish someone could help us with this problem. I've contacted so many people for help. The EPA wouldn't come out for indoor air they told me.
Since then I've tried to contact my Congressman (Rob Andrews) and his secretary said she'd get back to me when she had some information. It's been 9 months since our last email and i've heard NOTHING.
Hard as it might be to believe this is the SHORT VERSION of this story.
If anyone has any kind of information to help with this nightmare of a problem we'd appreciate it very much.

Ted_4

Soot

I assume you are talking about carbon in the form of soot.
I was in one house recently that had a sooting problem caused by poorly vented & adjusted gas logs, but you did not mention having gas logs.

When your main heater was changed to a direct-vent model, what happened to the water heater? (Ideally, it should have been changed to direct or power vent also.) The water heater could be the source of the problem if it is burning poorly and not venting properly. Dryers have powerful fans and draw a lot of makeup air. Your dryer could be back-drafting the water heater flue if your home is tightly constructed, or it is in a closed area with the water heater. Please have a professional check the chimney (water heater flue)for proper draft, and if possible have a "combustion air zone" (CAZ) pressure test done while the dryer is in operation.

Dee

Thanks Ted for your response, but we have a brand new Electric hot water heater. Also we don't have gas logs nor a fireplace. I want to check into the gas dryer. For some reason I don't know if I am grasping at straws here, but my dryer area has quite a bit of dust/lint and also outside where the vent is there is constantly tons of lint on the cement out there. Everyone doesn't think this is the source but I still don't think that is normal. It was never like that in my other home and I don't know anyone who has the same amount.
Again thank you for your response and If you can think of anything else please don't hesitate to mention it.
Thank you

Empire_2

Dee?.....;-)

Do you burn candles on a regular basis? Normal candles, especially ones with scent aroma theropy will give off hi levels of soot and show this problem. If you do not burn them, then we shall consider other sources...

Mike T

jackchips_2

Others will

address your carbon problem, Dee but I am concerned about your dryer lint description.

There is no way that much lint should be getting past your dryer filter. You really should have that checked out.

Jack

Dee

No I do not burn candles anymore. I haven't burned any candles in over 3-4 years. I only burned one or 2 at the most when I did burn them. I now melt them. I was told about the candles and I had a gentleman out from the Dept of Health. He said it was IMPOSSIBLE for all the carbon that we have to be from one or 2 candles. That was about 7- 10 yrs ago I was told that. I now have the warmers that melt the candles and do not burn them any longer.
Also I am going to call the Maytag repair as I think all the lint is coming through the very small filter that is in there. It seems to have more lint in the inside of the dryer than anywhere else.
Thanks.

BigRed

candles

scented candles in jars put out a lot of soot/carbon,


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BigRed

warmer

what is a candle warmer

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Empire_2

Candle warmer,...........

I think I know what that is, but am not sure of what substance it puts out. All Appliance checks are a must, but when ruling these out I think that everything and anything must be analized. I wish I had an answer for you. I'm sure it is frustrating. I guess my Q: would be when you melt the candle stuff......where does the stuff go if at all? Is it attracting dirt or is it actually carbon. Have you had it analized as such?

Mike T.

[Deleted User]

Are you certain...

that the pollution is coming from within the home?

Are you positive of the chemical composition of this alleged material?

Do you have a local company that could perform a blower door test (google energy conservation specialist in your area) and determine the rates of infiltration?

Do your neighbors ever complain of the same condition in their home?

Do you have an air filtration system other than what came on the furnace in your home?

What type of insulation is in your attic?

What was on the lot/site before your home was built?

Are you near an interstate highway?

Are you near an industrial complex (refinery, rubber/chemical manufacturer etc)

Where do you get your water from? (well versus city)

More questions will generate more questions which will eventually lead to a possible answer.

ME

gerry gill

thats what i was wondering..

is it really carbon? did a lab determine this?

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Darin Cook_2

Dee

Has anyone ever tested the house with a blower door to see how many air exchanges per hour were going on? You may have a considerable stack effect going on. I have seen some homes that were "loose" and the carpets and insulation became big air filters. It can be staggering as to how much dirt can make its way through a home floating thru the air. How are your heating bills? Do you feel they are high for the square footage of the home? The answers for all the clues are in the home, you just have not found the right "detective" yet.

Darin

Garret

I wonder if it's just a dusty neighborhood. I lived in a rental for a while that was downwind from a cement factory... even several blocks away, when the wind was right (which was often), the whole neighborhood would fog up. We ended up keeping the windows shut, putting a high quality filtrete filter in the furnace, and running a few hepa filters to keep the place clean. Then we bought a house further away... no problems since.

Jim Davis_3

Black Soot Syndrome

I have heard of your problem many times but never lasting to the extent of years you have encountered. Usually this problem only lasts up to 4 years and tends to dissipate after that. Have seen homes that have had new carpeting, or some remodeling that triggered the same thing but normally occurs in new construction. In all cases it was caused by VOC"s(volatile organic compounds) or in simple terms- carbon -from internal chemicals and then blackened by some heat source. Never could identify why it occurred in some homes and not others, but it was never candles in the cases I explored. I would guess you have a noticeable buildup on your TV or Computor screens almost daily and possibly windows. Gets into your cabinets, closets and likes to settle on things that are plastic. I would guess some of it is coming from the insulation in the attic, but why is the insulation turning black? Have seen this where there are ceiling fans and can lights. All the insulation around them in the attic is black. Just had a contractor call us with the same problem a few months at a customers house. The problem is now gone and the homeowner is quite pleased. It is possible some of the chemicals are coming from outside the building but it really doesn't matter because you need the problem fixed.
The contractor installed an O-zone generator in the ductwork of the furnace. I you have a boiler it would require portable units. It took several weeks of operation of these units to see the problem stop. This was unusual because in the past it only had taken a few days. But as soon as the O-zone unit was turned off the problem was back.. Not sure how long it takes in all cases to permanently fix the problem because that is dependent on the source. You might hear that O-Zone is unsafe but it is the 2nd most effective sanitizer and deodrizer in nature. Outdoors it is produced by sunshine and lightning. Inside we have to make it ourselves. Not sure where you are located but I might know some contractors in your area that I have provided this information.

Empire_2

Daren I agree

As Mark E. stated outside sources and infiltration into the house and out can give multiple senerios. For some reason I am still stuck on the candle thing although she has not burned for a while. BUT,...the melting think makes me wonder if the substance is sticky of sorts and contributing to the visable problem. Also, Dee... 1 or 2 cnadles a day in the past will show over time on walls, intakes supply resisters etc... Have you hade the ducts cleaned and if so what was the results?

Mike T.

Dee

Mark, yes we are certain that the substance is carbon. Black soot. We were told that carbon/soot attaches itself to plastic and glass and thats why we see it most on those surfaces. As far as the 1-2 candles showing over time.... we had the whole house cleaned, re-painted, wallpapered, ducts cleaned, chimney cleaned. Nothing left undone and in about 2 years we could see the carbon hadn't stopped as the heating company told us after we spent $3000.00 on a new heater. So many people have been through my home from the Gas Company to the makers of the original heater (Trane) that we had at the time and not one person could come up with a definite cause. We've spent thousands on trying to rid this problem but it is still here.
Anything else you can think of feel free to mention.
Thanks

Ron Schroeder

Speaking of ouside sources

Any neighbors with a sooting burner problem, schools, electric power plants etc that runn 4 or 6 oil, if your in an area where older buildings are many times they have less effiecnt equipment oil equipment, places that burn openly. my mother gets soot on the laundry when she hangs it out to dry and it is a town wide problem that they finally decided was from a electric coal burning plant many miles away with winds bringing in the soot.

Dee

The candle warmer is just that.....something that melts the wax IN THE JAR and it then gives off a scent. Carbon, from what I was told, comes from something burning. As in candles the carbon comes from the WICK and not the wax.
Some of the other things we were told was that the house was built "too tight" and also the infiltration problem as some people have had black along the edge of the rugs along the wall. Our carbon is everywhere. It's been found in things that are stored away. This substance has been tested and was found to be "carbon".
When we called the Heating company almost 4 years ago they tested my heater and said "nothing was wrong with it". Through it all that was the only thing everyone agreed on.
When the heating company went into my attic he said there was "black insulation" along the flue. He said that when the other man turned on the heater he saw the black soot come through the pipe. He then told us that by putting in a new heater with a 2 pipe system this would eliminate the use of the flue and that all the air for the heating system would be coming from outside.
A year after the heater was put in we began to see some black soot. We were told again the black we were seeing could just be the "residule". I've heard that so much over the years I've become ill when hearing that word.
Needless to say the carbon has never left and all the "solutions" we were given did absolutely nothing but cost us more money.
Someone asked what the house was built on. My house was built on a Peach Orchard and none of my neighbors have this problem. One person had a similar problem but it was only in the first floor and this was due to a heating problem. After they had the heater fixed it was resolved.

Dee

To Darin.....I agree with you when you said......
"The answers for all the clues are in the home, you just have not found the right "detective" yet.
I have been saying that for the last 7 or so years. I do believe that someone will eventually figure out this problem. Until then we wonder what will breathing in this carbon do to us???.......

Dee

As I stated before my home is in a large development and the land used to be a Peach Orchard.

The one thing that has most of us puzzled is "why did this not show up until after we lived in this house 6 years"? Now since that time in all the repairs and cleaning and "re-doing" we see the soot/carbon on plastic and glass immediately but it takes a year to 2 before you can see it on the ceilings and walls.

It is mostly in the winter we see this carbon, but we still have it in the Spring/Summer.

Another point of fact. We replace our filter ONCE A MONTH. Sometimes it's black before the month is up. I don't know anytone who has a black filter in that short a period. Most of our friends barely change the filter 2-3 times a year and when they do their filter is only grey and not black.

[Deleted User]

How did they determine

that the house was too tight? Did someone actually perform a blower door infiltration test?

What exactly is your insulation in the attic made up of. Fiberglass, rock wool, cellulose?

Where is the ducting for the return air located? In the attic or in the basement?

Has a test been performed on the duct work to make sure that it is in good condition?

ME

Garret

Environmental pollution...

Dee, try searching www.scorecard.org for your neighborhood.

This is a really great site that pulls together publically-available EPA pollution data, and lets you search by zip code.

It'll tell you exactly what's being released in your community -- including soot emissions. And it'll give you the name & address of the industrial facilities.

After you search for your zip code, scroll down the see the section about AIR quality pollution. Click on "Get a list of the top polluters". The PM-10 score is particulate matter, like what you're finding throughout your house.

Given all the people who have been through, and everything you've checked and improved in your home, I really wonder if it's an outside source.

It's scary actually how weak our EPA laws are, when you see the data. For instance, I live in a nice quiet college town (Champaign, IL), modest population (120,000) surrounded by corn fields, etc.. But I'm in the bottom 20% of US cities in air quality because of a handful of poorly operated factories nearby.

For instance, one factory near me releases 167 tons of PM-10 material each year.

-Garret

Dee

Mark E.

They didn't do any kind of test to determine that the house was too "tight", but they said that all new homes are made like that.
At this point I felt they were saying anything because they just didnt' know what the problem was.
I have fiberglass insulation in the attic.
The return duct is in the basement.
I think there was a test on the ducts to see if they were in good working order, but as so many things were done I am not sure but I will check on that.
Thank you for all the things you are coming up with. I'm sure sooner or later (hopefully sooner) we can finally find out what this problem is.
Very sad to see new things like furniture, rugs, walls freshly papered etc.... all looking as though they are very old and very dirty.

Weezbo

hello *~/:)

Dee, this is a stretch buh...i have burned many a shop vac because a new soot devil is around 8 hundred. carpet and vacum cleaners sometimes dont play well together. i had this one cheap POS vacum cleaner that would blow the dust right back out in the room while cleaning the carpet. my ans? pitch the POS and Lose the carpet.

Tom_35

Metering Air System from Field Controls---

Dee,

You have received an abundance of credible information. Let me add something else to consider.

We have run into carbon black problems before---on homes with gas heat and one that was total electric. The total electric home was really puzzling. We had cleaned the ductwork, blower, everything we could think of, and the black continued to come back. We sent a sample of the stuff to a lab and they came back with carbon black.

We did some other analysis, and ended up installing a metering air system on the return air duct and the problem went away. This is a very simple barometric damper that automatically opens up and brings in outside air when the home goes negative. The air that is being brought in is filtered by the furnace or air handlers filter and is mixed in with the home air, so you don't feel the draft that would come in around doors or windows.

We have installed quite a few of the MAS and have had excellent results.

By the way, we had one customer that had been told they needed to pull all of the rock wool insulation out of their attic, seal around all the can lights, plumbing and electrical penetrations, and then reinsulate---with the estimate being over $8,000. We installed the MAS for less than $350, and their problem went away.

Tom Atchley

Dee

Tom Atchley,
As far as you were saying about the Metering Air System using outside air...I'm not sure if you saw one of my messages about the new heater we have. That heater uses only air from outside as both pipes are routed out the side of the house.
Before I check into the MAS would my having this type of heater still apply?
Thanks for your suggestions. I can't thank everyone enough for the suggestions. I'm hoping we find something that will solve this puzzling riddle.

Jim Davis_3

Metered air

The air that Tom is talking about is not for the furnace but for the house. It brings in fresh air through the furnace and filter rather than leakage in the walls, windows etc. I have found this to minimize the problem but not totally correct it. If there is only black on the carpet around the baseboards only, this is the cure.

Once again I have been in dozens of homes with your problem and the only real cure to the problem was an O-Zone generator(low level) or time. I have seen it in old loose homes that had remodeling done and new homes just built that were supposed to be tight but were just suspect tight, but not really. Unfortunately time is unpredictable.

Dee

Garret,
I am looking into the site you gave me, but from what I've seen so far this doesn't seem to be a problem for me.
It's sad that I am the only one who is having this problem. As we have asked quite a number of people in the area. Some say it might be from what the house was built on but this was always a Peach Orchard.

For some of the other suggestions about getting rid of the carpet etc......well we can do that but we'd have to get rid of the furniture, walls, ceilings.......etc... This carbon/soot is not just on a select few things it's on EVERYTHING. Nothing is free of this carbon.

Not sure I mentioned this but we also tried contacting our Congressman (Rob Andrews-NJ) and I heard from his secretary once when she said she was getting the information that would help us.
After maybe 2 months of hearing nothing I sent another email and then I was told she was still waiting for information and she'd get back to me when she had it.
Well it's been almost 10 months since that last email and I've heard nothing from his office. It's pretty sad when a Congressman who we put in office to serve us doesn't care a bit. I haven't finished with him yet. I will contact him again soon.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Dee

Also wanted to mention we are the original owners of the home. It was built in 1990 and as I mentioned before it was a Peach Orchard previously.
Thanks

Weezbo

There is a cause...

originally and the effect. when you lost the furnace you lost the cause. The effect was a fine air born carbon...to have seen the amount of dirt under carpet would leave you in a state of mind to never have carpet in your home again.

in the past ,when rmodeling we would prime and paint the walls with kiltz remove the carpet and backing put the shop vack outside and hoover the stuff out the building.

In large buildings with forced air, the job goes large as the duct work needs to be cleaned(taken apart).

.it could very well be you are now a product of the effects rather than the original cause....

One of the other things that may not have ever been addressed is plumbing ,electrical and ventilation openings. These all need to be sealed .one thing that you could do would to be to cut out a piece of sheet rock in the ceiling beneath the drain of a bath tub....if there is a layer of soot under this opening ,then i would re read the post about stack effect and read up on the subject a bit. it may prove to be illuminating.

Larry Weingarten

It's another long shot...

...but if the source of carbon is in the house and it is not from combustion, what other possible sources? I can think of three possibilities; electric motors with carbon brushes, any other electrical goodie that might arc, or electric space heaters converting dust in the air to carbon. Looking at everything electrical in the house with an infrared camera might show up anything that's hot that shouldn't be.

Are there any motors that run a lot in your house? Do you use any electric space heaters?

Yours, Larry

ps. If you have carbon arc lighting... ;~)
pps. Am I correct in assuming there was no carbon problem for the first six years... that it only started after gas was brought to the house?

Dee

Long shot

Larry we do not have nor have we ever owned a space heater. Also we don't have any electrical motors other than the normal appliances ......dish washer, refrig...etc.
Anything else you can think of no matter how small or insignificant please don't hesitate to let me know.
Thank you again for all the thoughts and suggestions.

J.V.M.

Dee's Carbon..

After reading all the great responses to Dee's problem, I think the problem could be, ( and I hate saying this) but is it at all possible that what Dee is getting in her home is pure, 100% DUST.... From the heating system to the attic insulation everything has been check, sounds like dust to me...

Empire_2

J.V.M.

After all the responses, I think all whom replied should meet at Dee's house for Pizza and a Beer. It would be expensive, but well worth it ;-) We could show off all of our hi tech. insturments... and compare notes.

Mike T.

Dee

JMV

Well JMV I honestly wish that was the problem, but sadly it isn't. Dust isn't BLACK and dust doesn't stain walls and rugs and ceilings. Most of the carbon is seen naturally on plastic and glass as I was told it attaches itself to those things first. When I first saw the carbon in 1996 I saw it on the ceilings. I was told that because of the heat in the joist the carbon would center on that rather than the whole ceiling.
Dust it isn't but lord I wish it was.
The funny thing about this is that I'm told I am a clean freak and I guess in this case it's a good thing. If I wasn't I might not see out my windows as they get very black. I try to do the windows anywhere from once a month to every couple months. Even as far as the walls and rugs. I would vacuum everyday. I was told If I didn't clean the way I did I'd have much more damage quicker.

Dee

Pizza & Beer

I agree with Mike T. Pizza & Beer is on him.....lol and I'll make sure the area where we eat will be carbon free......
Thanks for the laugh I do try not to let this get to me. It has for a long time but now I try to take each day as it comes.
Thanks Mike for the laugh )

Empire_2

Funny thing,...

It's hard to deal with a problem and we all try and help where ever possible. Pizza and Beer usually motivates the professionals to gather to solve the problem ;-) I'll bet when it's all said and done, the answer will be "Duhhh that makes sense" in nature. Good luck dee and by the way,.You buy the Pizza and Beer, not I. :-)

Mike T.

Dee

Re: Funny Thing

Mike I couldn't agree more.

I often think if this was a court room and I was seeking a monetary amount for "pain and suffering" there wouldn't be an amount for what I've lived with these past 11 yrs. It's sad when you can't live the way you'd like and have to always worrry about keeping the carbon down to a minimum. To clean and clean and clean and still there isnt' a light at the end of the tunnel. No one can understand until they've lived it and seen it. As I said before I try to laugh as much and as often as possible because if I didn't I think I'd have lost my mind by now.

Oh and I'd pay for the pizza & beer if everyone came over and all minds were working together to solve my problem. As Darin said before "The answers for all the clues are in the home, you just have not found the right "detective" yet. That is what I've been telling everyone for the last 8 or so years.
If the right "detective" found the answer to the clues I'd be more than happy to buy that pizza & beer. Anything to live a normal life in a normal house.
Thanks again )

[Deleted User]

Tell me more about the black insulation in the attic...

In my experience, fiber glass is either yellow or pink, not black. If in fact you have black insulation in the attic, and the house is being exposed to slight negative pressures from whatever source, be it stack effect or leaking improperly sized return air system, it could be sucking this dust back into the house through any miniature point of infiltration.

What type of air filtration system do you have on your furnace? Electronic? Electrostatic? Conventional pleated filter? Combination of all the above?

Silly question, but what part of our country are you in. Maybe we can find an IAQ expert in your area that can do the required blower door test, magnehelic stack tests and so on and so forth.

There is a definite problem, and there is a solution, somewhere...

ME

Darin Cook_2

Dee

There are some stone cold facts already. If the insulation at the top of the house is blackened from whatever. Air is moving thru it and discoloring it. Just like a "air filter" would act. Now what is causing the "soot"? You MUST find a company that operates on the principles of science. Contact: Conservation Services Group to see if they have a rep in your area. If not find someone who will do a whole house energy audit and check the entire house as a whole system. They will find out if your mechanicals are operating safely and if not, what the corrective actions are.

Hope this helps, Darin