Carbon in my home

Dee

Black Insulation

Mark E,
Not sure I explained myself earilier about the black insulation. Almost 4 years ago when we called a heating company, to see if maybe they could find the problem, they tested the heater, which they said was working fine, they even checked to see if we had a cracked heat exchange. All the things they checked were all fine until they asked to go into my attic. After being up there awhile one of the men was in the basement and the other was in the attic. As the man in the basement kept turning on and off the heater he told me that he saw carbon coming out of the pipe (flue). He said each time the heater kicked on they'd see this carbon come out.
His solution was to put in a new heater with 2 pipe system and close off the flue. This was supposed to be my solution to my problem. Sadly I didn't need to spend another $3,000.00 on a heater I didn't need in the first place. Anyway he said that's why the insulation was black all around the flue. He also said that once he capped off the old flue and put the new heating system in that the carbon couldn't come through that flue any longer because it would not be in use any longer.

As to the filtration question. We are using Electrostatic pleated filter. We change it at least once a month, and it's always completely black by then. We were using the filters that were $20-$25 each as we were told these were the best. They cost the most and we changed them as often as the $10-$15 ones.

I am in Southern New Jersey.

Thanks again Mark for picking your brain for some possible solutions.

BigRed

Carbon

Was the soot found in the attic cleaned up or removed?

Was the old flue (the one not in use now) cleaned?

Was it sealed top and bottom?

Is there still carbon in that flue?

Is this a single, as in not a twin or town home?
Good luck

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Gordy

Dee

Dee, Have you personally viewed the condition of the attic insulation? Maybe the HVAC guys only noticed the carbon around the flue pipe.

Could be the carbon spewed all over the attic insulation in a less noticable consentration, and now the residue is being slowly sucked into the living space. Of course this would mean that you would have numerous ceiling intrusions, example being can lights, and ceiling fixtures.

Houses are inherently under a slight negative pressure anyway so could be this is filtering in through the ceiling intrusions.
Is the problem worse in the summer verses winter season?

Gordy

Dee

GKaske

The HVAC guys told me that the carbon was all around the flue. I don't think it was all over, but I will find out and let you know. Also if the carbon was all over the attic would this residue continue to go all through the house for the last 11 years?? This is how long i've had this problem.
I have the carbon in my lights and fixtures, but there isn't a place I don't have carbon.
The problem is much worse in the Winter. I still have carbon in the Spring/Summer but nothing like when the heat is on. By far the winter is the worst with the carbon.
If you think of anything else .....don't hesitate to let me know or ask.......
Thanks

Dee

GKaske

The HVAC guys told me that the carbon was all around the flue. I don't think it was all over, but I will find out and let you know. Also if the carbon was all over the attic would this residue continue to go all through the house for the last 11 years?? This is how long i've had this problem.
I have the carbon in my lights and fixtures, but there isn't a place I don't have carbon.
The problem is much worse in the Winter. I still have carbon in the Spring/Summer but nothing like when the heat is on. By far the winter is the worst with the carbon.
If you think of anything else .....don't hesitate to let me know or ask.......
Thanks

Gordy

Dee

When you say in the light fixture, Do you mean inside an enclosed type fixture, or on the outside surface of the fixture? Do you have alot of ceiling light fixtures? Would ductwork happen to be in the attic?

Gordy

Larry Weingarten

This is...

... a really good source of info and people who might be able to help. http://www.affordablecomfort.org/index.php

Also, I was trying to clarify from your first post; did the sooting start only after you had gas installed, after six years?

Yours, Larry

Joe Brix

Return duct work in attic?

Is your furnace in the attic or down in a basement? You you have a return air grill in the ceiling? If you have return duct work up there, it's probably pulling in soot that was distributed all around the attic for years by the old furnace. You probably need to have the duct work resealed and then cleaned.

Jim Davis_3

Do you want the problem fixed??

Dee, most people here are some of the best contractors in the country, but if they have never been in buildings with this problem they can only guess. I first encountered this problem in 1997 in two condos in a 12 unit building. Both condos, which were fairly new at the time, looked like an oil furnace malfunctioned. I was called in because everyone wanted to blame the gas furnace making Carbon Monoxide. As most here know that is what I specialize in and if this soot was caused by CO odds are everyone would be dead or at least quite sick. The problem is being caused by chemicals in the air passing across hot areas such as lights, refrigerator coil, TV, Computer etc. The most common denominator I found in over two dozen situations I actually inspected was burber carpeting, but there was one exception. I still get referrals from all over the country because I wrote an article on it, even before I found the solution. I had the sooty material tested by a lab and found out it was 80% carbon, 18% silica and 2% normal inert airborne particulate. Knowing that Ozone is a natural destroyer of VOC's we ask the homeowners if we could experiment in their house. Low and behold within a few days the black soot stop appearing on windows, TV & Computer screens etc. Now they could clean it up and not have to worry about it coming back and it didn't. The exception was a new job in the last two months that took almost 6 weeks to see major improvement but now that homeowner is estatic and they can't remember when they felt so healthy! I do know some contractors in South NJ or if anyone here on this site that might be near you is welcome to call and I will provide the necessary information.

Joannie_11

Congress

I understand you're frustrated, Dee. I would be, too. But, there's nothing a congressman can do for you, unless you find out there's some evil company nearby spewing junk into the air. You already know more about this problem than a congressman ever will, and you'll just make yourself more frustrated trying to pull a politician in the mix.

You're in the right place, and you're asking and answering the right questions.

[Deleted User]

Been sleeping on it for 2 days now...

Dee, I would suggest you take Jim Davis up on his offer to get some local experts in there to assess the field conditions. My thoughts are as follows'

1. If there are return ducts, improperly sized and poorly sealed running through the attic areas where the suspect carbon had allegedly been seen, every time the blower turns on, this ultrafine carbon is sucked up and distributed through the house. No amount of barometric dampers is going to alleviate this condition. Ducts need to be properly sized, sealed and balanced. Better yet, have the old insulation vac'ed out of the attic and replaced with new. While they are at it, have them seal every penetration into the envelope of your house that they can access, including but not limited to can lights, pipes, wires etc. These points of INfiltration can be found using off shelf blower door technology.

2. If the carbon is coming from within the home (attic, wall cavities etc), but out side of the living envelope, the use of dampers, pulling outside air to maintain a slight positive internal pressure will keep the carbon at bay. However, depending upon the heigth and configuration of your living space, slight negative pressures from what is known as the "stack effect" could still allow the carbon to "infiltrate" the homes living space.

3. Consider spending $1,000 on a good Electronic air cleaner made by a reputable company like Honeywell, or Trane has a new super duper unit coming out soon. Maybe you can convince them to give you a beta testing unit in trade for product endorsement. As Jim Davis has pointed out, it's not an isolated issue.

4. Although, as Jim says, ozone may be efective, I would caution you to consider this. Ozone is one of the strongest oxidants known to man kind. It will cause any natural rubber products in your home to age at an unbelieveable rate, causing you to need to replace rubber carpet backing, refrigerator door seals, jar seals and anything else that is rubber. Some people have also shown a propensity towards lung irritation with ozone treatment system. They do make portable ozone generators that you can rent and see what the net effect is before you spend the bucks to get lightning in a box. Usually, these units are available for rent from companies that sepcialize in water damage restoration.

So, in a nut shell,

A. Find the source and eliminate it.
B. If it can't be found, pressureize home and keep it at bay.
C. Oxidize it and filter it out.

Keep us posted and let us know how it goes with the path you decide to follow.

ME

jrc2905

I did not see it posted, but what kind of stove do you have?

Dee

Duct work in attic.....

No there isn't any duct work in the attic or returns. Only thing was the flue which was closed off in attic and also in the basement.

Dee

Range.

When the house was built 17 yrs ago the only gas we had was the heater. The day we moved in we made the change for a gas dryer. After being in the house 5 years we changed from an Electric Range to a gas one. In all these years some of the questions we were asked were......"What changes to the home have you made?" The only changes inside were those I mentioned. Outside we put in a cement patio and an above ground pool. All of that was within the first 2-3 years.
Anyway in all the years we had this problem (and like I said we never saw anything carbon/black related until almost the 6th year in the house)everyone racked their brains trying to think of what this could be. I then suggested "the range" becuase this was the only change shortly before we begun seeing the black carbon. We changed the range this October 06, but that didn't solve the problem. We are still seeing the black carbon on tables, plastic etc...

Dee

Range.

When the house was built 17 yrs ago the only gas we had was the heater. The day we moved in we made the change for a gas dryer. After being in the house 5 years we changed from an Electric Range to a gas one. In all these years some of the questions we were asked were......"What changes to the home have you made?" The only changes inside were those I mentioned. Outside we put in a cement patio and an above ground pool. All of that was within the first 2-3 years.
Anyway in all the years we had this problem (and like I said we never saw anything carbon/black related until almost the 6th year in the house)everyone racked their brains trying to think of what this could be. I then suggested "the range" becuase this was the only change shortly before we begun seeing the black carbon. We changed the range this October 06, but that didn't solve the problem. We are still seeing the black carbon on tables, plastic etc...

Dee

Sorry for the 2nd message.

Dee

Do I want the problem fixed????

Jim I couldn never ever tell you how bad i'd like to solve this problem, but in the last 11 years we've spent so much money we didn't have to spend on things that DID NOT solve the problem. Over and above what my homeowners covered we are in a hole for quite a bit. Oh and by the way after the 2nd claim we had to file with my homeowners they dropped us. I tried to tell them the first time around that the problem wasn't solved and we still had carbon, but I was treated like a stupid female and told "we'll take care of it". I was told that by everyone.
Anyway as I said before in one of the other messages we had the black soot tested and we were told it was 100% carbon.
We'd like to try what you are saying as I want to have a normal house and be free of this carbon. I want to have a home that doesn't need a complete overall every 3 years. I want to be able to not dust or do my windows whenever I want and not worry about how much harder I will have to clean to get rid of the carbon. This has taken such a toll on our lives. Some of which will never change.
We have been so wary of new information because of all the money we have spent for nothing.
At this point I am wishing for that "DETECTIVE" that Darin mentioned. AS he said we have all the answers for the clues in my home but yet to find that detective.
Any information you have I'd appreciate it very much.
Thank you

Dee

A heartfelt thank you......

A heartfelt thank you for all the suggestions, questions, replies....etc. This has been the most interest I've had with this problem since it began. Everyone who came through my home DID NOT know what the problem was, but was quick to blame it on things that it wasn't. Most of all the Gas Company has a scary bunch of people there.
So I will never be able to thank you or tell you how much I apprecitate all the help.
As Tanner said in his message...You're in the right place, and you're asking and answering the right questions. I believe he is 100% correct. I'd never find this much information anywhere else......
Thanks to all of you, and please keep picking at your brains until this is solved.

Dee

reply to Jim's message

In reply to Jim's last message that.... most people here are some of the best contractors in the country, but if they have never been in buildings with this problem they can only guess.
That is exactly how I feel with this problem. If a person hasn't lived in my situation for as long as I have then they don't have a clue what a horrible experience this has been. I wish for it to be solved and I can go on with my life.
Also another thing that I wondered....Many times I wanted to give up and sell this house. As much as I love it I couldn't handle living this way with all the stress, tension.....etc. Then we thought "Could we even sell this house? What would happen if we did??? ......all those kinds of questions you wonder about.
Hopefully one of you here will find that solution and we can stay in the home that we love.
Thanks again

jrc2905

You do need to find out what is causing the problem is first to fix it. The choice of last resort is the process of elimination. Since the heating season is almost over you need to set up a simple air monitoring system for soot. A cheap air filter will do. Put a medium to detect soot such a piece of white toilet paper on it. If the soot does not appear it is your heating system. If it does appear, then the problem is elsewhere. Do not use the heating system fan because that may be the problem.

Tim Schram

Gas Pressure?

Hey all,

I'm probably reaching here, but has anyone checked the gas pressure going to the main lines of the home? When the range was added, were the gas lines sized properly for the added load? If the original furnace was sooting maybe line pressure to the home was too high causing soot, and now under certain conditions the stove while new, needs the secondary regulator adjusted. Was this a two pound system and when the stove was added a regulator was never added at the appliance?? Just one more thought added to all of the others.

Tim

Constantin

Three inexpensive things to try

I'm a mere fellow homeowner like you, Dee, but my guess is that it has to do with the range, considering that the appearance of the soot was coincidental with the installation of the range.

Are you sure that the gas pressure at the range is correct? Excessive gas pressure could cause the flames to lift, causing them to impinge on cooking pans, etc. causing soot. Believe it or not, but gas flames impinging on cold cylinders was the first way the US used to make carbon black in industrial quantities. Back then, natural gas was a nuisance, not an asset, while drilling for oil and it used to be simply flared (hard to imagine at todays natural gas prices).

Another thing I would double/triple-check is the draft hood over the stove. Is it functioning, does it suck away all the fumes when you cook, and most importantly, do these fumes go outside? You might laugh, but a cousin of mine had a range hood installed recently and noticed the drywall dust and debris shooting out of the wall when he turned it on. The installers had not sealed the thing properly. Your range hood could be doing the same thing, i.e. pushing fouled gases into your home instead of outside. So, I would verify with an airflow meter that the range hood is functioning OK and that all the fumes end up outside the home.

Lastly, I wonder if you own a self-cleaning oven and if you use that feature often. The self-cleaning option works on the basis of heating the inside of the oven to 900+°F, carbonizing anything left in there, turning it to carbon black dust, and usually exhausting it via the fan system. If your oven is cleaned this way, turn on the range hood when the oven self-cleaning cycle is operating and see if that makes a difference. Better yet, avoid the need for self-cleaning via better spill control inside the oven.

So that's three things to look into that I could think of on the top of my head. Back to sleep now, and best of luck.

Darin Cook_2

Dee

What state are you located in?

Darin

Jim Bennett

NJ

She is in New Jersey

Jim Davis_3

If you tried to sell your house you would have to disclose the problem and would be responsible if not. I have been in homes that had gas ranges that made thousands of ppm of CO and not seen soot. Again if CO is being produced you would be more likely unable to ask for help. I have called my contractor here in Cleveland and would be glad to talk to you and possibly would let you talk to his customer that had the same problem that has now been cleaned up. E-mail me if you are interested in talking to him.

Bob Harper

Black Particulate Matter

Dee, I investigate BPM for a mfr. so let me help you here:

First of all, you don't know what the material is until you've had it properly analyzed. It could be dirt, mold, filings from door hinges, or combustion soot as a few examples. Even if it is "soot", is it from cellulose-based fuels such as wood burning fireplace or cigarettes or regular hydrocarbon fuels? Is is from a short chained aliphatic alkane such as natural gas or propane or is it from a long chain such as diesel fuel, heating oil, cooking oil, or paraffins such as candles? This can be determined by proper sample collection then analysis by Polarized Light Microscopy (PLM). Next, have them run gas chromatography with mass spectrometry to identify exactly what this compound is.

So far, you've had a lot of educated guesses but that's all they are---guesses. You need to know. That will point you to the source. You cannot make any assumptions.

So what else should a good investigator look for or do? Inspect and test each combustion appliance in the home for seal, leakage of combustion byproducts into the home, and proper setup, installation, operation, and maintenance. Next, perform a Worst Case Depressurization Test to see if any combustion appliance backdraft and if so, at what degree of negative pressure. It will also show you what appliances or combinations thereof it takes to backdraft these appliances. You need to use a checklist and thoroughly inspect the house from top to bottom. If you suspect insulation, then which insulation (attic, ducts, etc.) and what is the vehicle for distribution?

Keep in mind if you shake out a vacuum cleaner bag and you have forced air ventilation, it WILL end up all over and throughout the home. You can have ducts cleaned, ozonated and chemically treated but you won't get it all. Jim is correct about ozone being able to scrub out many pollutants. Keep in mind, it is itself a pollutant and can destroy living tissue so you don't want to be in there with it.

If your insurance carrier was on the ball, they would have had this lab testing done at the outset and it wouldn't still be a problem.

As for candle soot, yes, one candle can trash a house. The soot is from unburned wax that is vaporized. We can tell if they burned candles in a home years ago. Its still there.

There are a lot of good possibilities posed to you by this very learned group. However, you should stop the guessing and get right to the Root Cause Analysis. I wish I could help but I'm tied to my mfr.

hope this helps,

Ken D.

Dee

I tend to agree with some of the previous posts. It could be from some material in the house that is outgassing and is reacting with heat or otherwise and being spread around by the furnace blower. Take a look at your car windshield. That film that accumulates inside is from the materials in the interior outgassing. It can react with heat from the sun and deposits as you see. I am also wondering if the return duct work is too small. If so, the furnace blower will pull air from anywhere it can including the attic where you have already seen soot. Tremendous amounts of air pass through an attic vent system, including auto and your neighbor's furnace exhaust. Attics have many areas where air can pass into the living space, such as attic access doors or panels and chases where wiring and plumbing vents breach the space. Many furnace systems pull return air from the "bay" spaces in walls between the framing studs and not ductwork. Any crevices into attic will be a highway for air to enter. A new furnace will have a blower that will move a lot more air than an old heater will, thus more air from attic. Did you try to call the EPA or your County Heatlh Dept.? Is this a single home? I once had a job where wire had smoldered. It was not a large wire, but I was astounded at the amount of soot it produced. Any chance you had an overheating wire inside a wall or someplace? I am in the Philadelphia area in Pa. I will see if I can get you a name to call.

rick in Alaska

soot

Dee: In one of your posts you said the return air duct was in the basement. Does that also mean the return grille is also there? I have seen this quite a bit where the return is in the basement, and the door to the next floor is closed. When the furnace fan comes on, it will look for air wherever it can get it, which is usually out of the furnace flue.
If the furnace is not a sealed unit, the blower fan can pull air out of the furnace room and starve the burner for air, thus making soot which will be pulled into the return air duct and distributed everywhere.
One of the best ways I know to check this is to put your hand in front of the barometric damper on the exhaust pipe and see if you feel hot air blowing out of it when the blower fan comes on.
Also, make sure you have a really good co detector.
Hope you find the solution fast.
Rick in Alaska

Dee

Bob Harper

Thanks for the information Bob, but our question would be Who would we call to have this testing process done?
Also the only thing we have thats combustable is the new heater and that seems to be fine.
Yes I agree if the Insurance Company was on the ball they'd not have allowed this to continue. Twice they wouldn't listen and cleaned and replaced things that are again destroyed.
Thanks

Dee

Ken D.

Yes Ken I did call the EPA. They were one of the first people I called for help. They essentially told me they weren't interested in "indoor air quality" and they'd send me a list of people I could "pay" to help me.
This was more of what we'd been through. Paying for things that "DID NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM"
I also called the Health Department and they sent out 2 people. One was supposedly a specialist and I told him what everyone else had said about "candles" at that time. He then told me that for the quantity of carbon I have "I'd need to be having a seance using quite a number of candles". Those were his exact words.
The health department couldn't help me as he was the only person who said "I'm sorry, but I don't know what this can be". I appreciated his honesty as everyone else didn't know but placed blame on the candles. As I said before in one of my other messages. I HAVE NOT burned candles in a very very long time so the candle theory was WRONG in this case.
Thanks for your help

Dee

Rick in Alaska

I am sorry but my return isn't in the basement. If I said that I made a mistake. My returns are on the living room floor and the uppper level bedroom hallway. There isn't a return in the basement. Only the supply is down there.
Thanks

Jim Bennett

Curious minds...

Dee,

I have been following this post with interest.

I don't have any suggestions to offer, but wanted to say that when you do find the right "detective" and finally find the cause of this problem, check back here and let us know.

Thanks and Good Luck,

Jim

Larry Savino

Great information in this post for every one.

I have a simple question for Dee.

What if any hobbies to you or some one in you family enjoy in the house,around the house or in the garage?

Dee

Jim Bennett

Hi Jim,
IT WOULD BE THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE to be able to tell you we have SOLVED this mystery. Believe me I will make sure to post it here first thing.
I honestly have to tell all of you here..... I have received more information and possible solutions in the short time I sent my first message here then I have in the last 11 years, and trust me I spoke to many many people over the years.
I've never felt like I had anyone on my side until now. I truly appreciate all of everyone's help. I hope this problem is solved soon so I can put that post up.
My only regret is I wish I'd known about this site way back then.
Thanks again to all.....

Dee

Larry Savino

Hi Larry,
The hobbies we have are pretty much normal ones....TV, reading, puzzles. Nothing to do with painting or mechanical things.......I'm not sure what you are thinking but if you give me a few suggestions maybe that will help.
I can't think of anything else. My mind is blank........sorry

Larry Weingarten

another Larry

Hello Dee: Have you checked the Find a Pro section for any contractors who might be able to come have a look at your house? That contractor could serve as a conduit for info about your house to "The Wall". This way we could all remain involved and hopefully bring the sooty situation to a prompt, carbonless close. Hundreds of minds might be better than one.

Yours, Larry

hr

Bob Harper has the best advise

find someone like him to come by and do some testing. Surely he is not the only one to do this testing.

Recently I had a fellow hand me a card at a home inspection.

Chris Jungbluthy card reads

Microbiologist, Chemist, Industrial Hygiene Tech, OSHA Compliance

He specalizes in mold and other air quality issues. I'd bet there is an association for folks that do that type of investigation. Maybe contact Chris here in Missouri at 417-886-8454. Perhaps he can link you to someone in your area.

Or google air quality specialists. I'll bet someone in your state does this type of work

I think samples and testing are the first step.

Maybe CSI could come by

hot rod

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ChasMan

Is someone ever going up into the attic? I have visions of three inches of soot from the old furnace laying around up there all over the insulation. If the house is going negative with a range hood, and the attic is full of soot, it will come in around the penetrations. I have tried to seal my attic penatrations. Its not so easy. There are a lot of the little buggers and many are unreachable by all but the smallest of men.

ScottMP

Dee

I really hope you stay with us on this and find out whats going on. Many of us have been reading this thread and find it very interesting.

I am not sure how you feel about this, But I belive if you stay with the advice you are getting here you may solve the issiue.

The Wall has the best and the brightest and they WILL get you the answeres.

Scott

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Dee

Chas Man

The attic is fine now. There was carbon all around the flue before we replaced it with a new 2 pipe heating system. The flue was closed off completly.