My side of the story.....(JohnNY)

Phil_6

the nicer the house..

the bigger the chance of damaging something expensive, the more time spent protecting finished surfaces, etc. Affluent people don't pay more, we just offer a little discount to the less well off ;-)

jim lockard

J.K.

I charge them all the same, or at least I try to be very fair. With a customer base that ranges from the visiable wealthy to the truly rural poor. Truth be know I would rather spend my days in the trailer parks then with the starter castle group. At the same time J.K. we need folks with money to make this business work Best Wishes J.Lockard

john_27

two thoughts....

1.There is a lot of resentment in this thread against people
who live in nice houses or....work on wall Street. If you think wall Street pays more, why don't you go join it? I would think the trades are far more stable a profession.....,
2.Let's do the math on john's 2500 quote....1 pro...80 an hour, 1 apprentice...20 per hour....direct costs for insurance are nothing per day....so...2500 less 640 less 160 gives
1880 before indirect costs...sounds like he is in a better business than Wall Street.....funny thing though....a pro like him might be worth it .

Mad Dog_2

Paranoid.................

There is no resentment there...only what you WANT to see. Only resentment of a person who CAN afford to do things right, but refuses to see the value in the crucial service we provide. What did you make those overhead numbers up? or are they from 10 years ago.....you have no clue. My brother has worked on Wall Street and does well. It is a very hard and stressful business. Our business is physically brutal on one's body, highly stressful at many times, and difficult dealing with the general public who can toss us out of their house at any time and refuse to pay a bill and pretty much get away with it unless you lein their house. I've been beaten by poor people and stiffed by the rich - bad people at all economic levels. IT sounds like you think the grass is greener on our side of the fence? Maybe you should try it for a few years....how's your back, neck, do your hands tingle and go numb everday? Do you have dozens of scars and burns on your body? Ever get solder in your eye? Silver solder (1200 degrees) down your sleeve? How's about a nice roof nail in to your skull that feels good...done that more times than I care to remember? Ever have a ditch cave on ya? A boiler go thru basement steps as your bringing it down? bitten by dogs?
Not complaining, we love how tough and difficult it is and we still love it. But we, auto mechanics, and roofers deserve EVERY penny we get. Mad Dog

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john_27

A Great post by maddog....his second sentence expresses the true frustration of everyone on this post.....doing a great job and not getting paid for it. By the way, maddog,yes to all your questions....evrything you mentioned, except the solder, has happened to me. And also yes to your comments on Wall Street...I know that business extremely well, and you captured the stresses and strains of that industry accurately.
The point of my post, however, is precisely yours. John should get paid based on his talent, not on the size of the house or the industry that the client works in. And the client should figure out how good John is, and pay him completely and fast, or, don't go with him. But,this thread
seems to go beyond that, and that is what I object to.

JohnNY

I think your point is valid, John.

I tried to convey in my second post my reason for mentioning the clients assets.

It's not like the client is coming to a restaurant or a car lot and you can't make any assumptions about their financial status.

We contractors are stepping into people's homes, in fact their lives, every day. It is an assumption, for sure, but one I feel is worth making when I step into a $10,000,000.00 home and the client says "Fix this!" or "Make this work!" that he means he wants it and he'll trust me to get it going the best way possible.

Here is another assumption while we're at it: I believe my service area includes some of the wealthiest people in the country. Obviously, I can't mention names here but I have several clients who are listed in the top 30 of the Forbes 500.

Big whoop, right.

I'm just trying to say, it's a weird world around here sometimes. When I used to try to get in touch with some of these people during the day, I'd get the "Why must I speak with you? Just fix the pipes." voice.
I generally get a call from some domestic staff member: there's water on the floor here, this room is cold, there's a noise in the wall, etc.
After the first or second time on the job, I am rarely ever asked what I did to fix the problem. I just send an invoice and get a check several days later.

They just need someone there.

What separates me from much of my competition is that I return calls, I show up, my repairs stay fixed, my installations stay working.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but if the guy were in a different position, he'd have had his estimate beforehand and probably would've called me 4 times during the day to see how we were doing.

I am confident that my pricing is fair and consistent with others at my level in this trade.

One thing my prices will never be? Low.



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Don \"Grumpy\" Walsh

Missing the point

The reference to price of the homes or types of car in the garage is being used to illustrate that those with the more valuable assets are generally the most difficult to collect from. Not to be used as a basis for what is to be charged. In my own company, the rates charged is a direct reflection of my cost of doing business, Period! As professionals in this business, we do not engage in "Let's Make a Deal." Call Monty Hall to fix your boiler if that's the game you want to play.

The fact that you are poor from excessive (and self inflicted) mortgage debt is not my problem, it does not change the price I demand for my services. I also do not feel that someone living in a lesser valued neighborhood is unable to pay the SAME prices for my services.

If you call my company for service, the method of payment is determined PRIOR to a service truck being dispatched to your home. If you are calling for a consultation (for a fee, we do not give free estimates) that too is agreed upon PRIOR to setting the appointment. If you decide to go forth with major repairs or a replacement, you will be informed of the price within $250 of the total price, and you will sign a contract BEFORE work commences. You will also be made aware that any items that are: hidden from view, buried in a wall, encased in concrete, etc., that are encountered will be repaired at additional cost only after your signed acceptance of liability.

Bargaining is out of the question, my price is my price. You are free to accept it or reject it. You will have paid for a very thorough examination and analysis of your situation, what you do with the information is your call.

JohnNY

Re: My job costs.

It's actually a little more complicated than that, John.
You haven't got a clue what my expenses are.

I post this with all due respect, of course.

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R. Kalia_8

Yes, of course, no one is required to bargain. But some posts above criticized customers who attempt to bargain. It is entirely reasonable for people to find out if there is price flexibility, and it is equally reasonable for you to say no.

Not bargaining is just a special case of bargaining, because bargaining is just a negotiation to try to find what price you are willing to accept.

john_27

course not...but...your post states 2500 and also a 15-20 percent profit over direct costs. so, do the math.

john_27

But, more importantly,

John saved a family from a horrible fate by removing the source of co2 from the house. It is unbelievable that someone would complain when someone did something so important.
He deserves his profit-every bit of it. That family will now
be safe every night they sleep there.....that's a pretty impressive thing that he did, and, he has my respect for doing it. He did a "good and noble" thing.

john_27

sorry co not co2.....again, that family should give you their entire business forever for what you did for them.

jim lockard

we know john

And seldom does the customer understand The true value of the service he/she has received. Best Wishes J.Lockard

BigRed

Mad dog

Yes! Yes! Yes! You can say that again Mad dog

mark smith

john's 2 thoughts ...

direct costs are NOTHING for a Day .....????

well, aren't You a business Genius ..!!!

i suppose some can just figure the Overhead will be covered by some "other" day that week, Eh ..??

D107

This is one of the best threads I've ever read here. Really lets you hear it from the contractor's side.

I'm a homeowner who always appreciated the experience of my father--a longtime HVAC engineer--who during WWII was a pipefitter in the navy yard and barely in his 20s repiped the one-pipe steam in his family's house. He used to laugh describing some industry titan he consulted for who'd show off by pushing all the buttons on the giant systems controller on his executive desk turning on the heating and AC at the same time.

Some of this seems like a class issue. It is unfortunate but some of the arduous labor Mad Dog describes--creative and essential as it is--is looked down upon by some people who need to look down upon others. Human nature sad to say. But of course not all well-to-do clients act that way and hopefully contractors keep an open mind until things prove otherwise. I guess you can sometimes tell in the first minute or so what kind of day it's going to be.

When I ran a coop in the city I would get multiple bids but did not ask the chosen bidder to lower his price. I might clinch the deal by asking him if he could do a few additional minor tasks for the price. But I always knew if I pushed too hard I might get my price reduction, but the contractor would feel cheated and might just find a way to give me less value in his work to make it affordable for him and I didn't want that.

I hope JohnNY will get his earned money but won't try to perpetuate business with those clients or try to reason with them since they've already shown their colors.

David

[Deleted User]

Calmly send him a certified letter...

telling him that he is in violation of the law, using YOUR materials to convey water and heat, and if he doesn't pay you in CERTIFIED fund, or CASH within 24 hours of having had received this letter, that you will file a PLUMBERS lien on his equipment.

If that doesn't work, go to http://www.safetyemporium.com/ILPI_Site/WebPagesUS/detail.htm&&2eiBpe0obDuox2NvxMpoLGxolobo24_akq_aqqWaWTa?07003-G

and purchased one of their gas valve locks, and go to his place of residence, turn off the gas and lock up the valve.

Leave a note on the lock out warning utility employees that if they remove the lock that they too will be named in the lawsuit for allowing the consumer to use YOUR equipment without having had paid for it properly...

Money says they will tell him to pay his bill and won't attempt removal.

What they heck, they do it all the time, why can't WE?

ME

john_27

mark...read the

last paragraph of john's first post....it discusses direct costs there. Good thread.

Arthur

There are always some one !!

I did a job once for a guy, he refused to pay despite the fact that we had done nothing wrong, because it was only a small bill we wrote it off, A couple years later I rang into another subbie from the job and we got talking, turns out this home owner got the whole job done free as he didn't pay anyone for the whole renovation, He had a way with words in letters which twisted things so it was hard to dispute.
Another job I accidently dropped a flue pipe onto the lino and made a C mark in it I rang a lino guy to come and fix it, the lino guy was all keen ready to come until he found out who the customer was and couldn't back out fast enough, the customer was one of these mean akward B(*^&,

Leasson I learned was the more money a customer has the faster they want service (they expect you to drop everything and rush round there because they are 'some one')and the slower they are to pay their account.

Guess there are people like this all over the world were ever you go.

Weezbo

Gently assisted by a size 10 brogan....*~/:)

Weezbo

Jim Thats my Dentists line *~/:)

however , in a sence we are more like surgeons..would you say oh! Sh ugar you mean it cost 600$ to redirect a broken artery and you DID'NT FIX IT?! and now its a matter of immediacy or i join the dearly departed?

**** uh uh. nope. we do our work and sleep at night provided it can be scheduled*~/:) losing sight of doing right is a bad deal... Really i would hate the surgeon that saw the right thing to do and just blew by it to haggle over price on my death bed after giving the guy the Go Ahead....people are losing sight in our country because drs are freaked with by lawyers in much the same way as this discussion has bought to light that really once involved its either explain Why you didnt repair the problem or hassle around with your concience ...nah...You did right just for the wrong person.

Constantin

Nice town, Camden...

... the last time I was there, I saw a guy on a treadmill on the back of his Gin Palace floating at the dock. I cannot fathom why someone would have, let alone use, a treadmill on a boat when its moored in a perfectly lovely town, but there you have it.

John, congratulations for saving several lives and I hope that your other customers are more appreciative of the value and professionalism you bring to your jobs.

Al Corelli

I guess the inverse to this predicament is when I drive up to a customer with my Hummer or SSR, or Vette, and the customer automatically assumes I'm going to be the high bid.

I do estimating from the small work van most times, and am treated like the lackey they want me to be.

Whatever. My price is my price. No bargaining. Why in hell would I spend my valuable time pricing a job to come up with a number that could be changed. Fixed costs are fixed costs.

Tom_35

New billing process for delinquents

We just started doing things a little different for business/homeowners that make a habit out of dodging legitimate bills.

We first started sending a past due statement everyday with the notation handwritten on the envelope "90 days past due", then the next day "91 days past due", etc. If this is in an office, all the office people see it, as does the postman. A cheaper method that makes more sense is to send multiple faxes daily to the business (hourly), where it ties up their phone line, and costs them paper, toner, etc.

You must be consistent with this effort, but it has worked for us, and just recently worked with an Opthamologist who has screwed more people than he has paid.

I don't know how it would work with the homeowner that is the subject of this thread, but maybe the fax could be sent to his place of work. It would really be nice if he were a top officer, but now the owner of the company. I'm sure he would be somewhat embarrased.

Tom Atchley
Ft. Smith, AR

Mark Hunt

Rob

I got a chuckle from your post. It's just that we don't get to see or hear of many "potters" in day to day routine and I was reminded of the scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail when they meet "the shrubber".

NO disrespect intended, but that's what I was reminded of.

I did some work at Skidmore College a few years back and got to meet the Professor that teaches pottery, Regis "something'.. Perhaps your fiancee has heard of him.

The man knew more about combustion than anyone I had ever met and taught me a few things. He did things with NG fuel to change what happened in the kilns. A genius! His work fetches big dollars in Manhattan from what I hear.

Thanks for the chuckle even though I know it was not your intention.

Mark H

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Tom R.

Last word

Everyone in business has been stiffed for a bill at one time or another, or hasn't been in business long. It happens, and ultimately your choice is to pay the lawyers or walk away a little smarter. What puzzles me is why no one is crying out for the hide of the guy who did the original installation. Anyone who ties equipment into an old chimney without a smoke test is either an idiot or a criminal. Either way, he doesn't belong in the trade. If you haven't done so already, place a call to DOB License Division and scream about what you found. Allowing him to continue to work is leaving a murderer loose on the streets.

Unknown

Perhaps I should change professions to Shrubbery Design

Those kilns are pretty wild. every time I see a new one I go over it with a fine tooth comb to check out how it works.

up here in ME potters aren't that rare, btw

Plumdog_2

Hit the lackey right on the head

with that one. Last summer I went to collect from a homeowner on a T&M job in my Porsche. He paid me and then fired me on the spot. "A plumber with a Porsche? That's just ridiculous". Always present yourself as subservient, thats how they like it.

Constantin

Sad, isn't it?

Instead of being happy for you, the customer gets jealous and angry.

I hope your other customers are more attuned to the benefits you bring to their homes and businesses rather than making value judgments about your relative worth/billing rates based on what car you drive.

Unknown

I dunno. I live pretty frugally, and frankly if someone shows up in front of me showing they are financing what I would deem to be an extravagant lifestyle, I'm inclined to work with someone else myself. I don't mind paying for someone's kid to go to college or for a nice house (with radiant heat, of course!), but that porche indicates a markup for a lot of things I have no desire to pay for and that I would deem, in my own life, as unnecessary expenses. Why would I want to pay for someone else's extravagance when I don't live that way myself? You choose how you want to live, that's fine, but it does have ramifications.

I've found that my clients appreciate that I keep our rates quite competitive and when I show up at their jobsites in a $2000 ten year old minivan, the only car I own, they at least know that I'm not adding $1000 to their bill for my car payments.

But then, most of my clients don't drive porches either. If they did, perhaps it would be different.

I'm not trying to say if you drive a porche you are a bad person. Just saying it probably indicates that we have very different ideas of what "reasonable compensation" means.

Plumdog_2

Extravagent?

I don't think so. The car is paid for, 22 years old. Costs less than my work van to operate; gets 29 mpg and has no leaky hydronic cooling system-it's scorched air at it's most refined state. The customer drove a Cad Escalade and told me he always wanted a Porsche but couldn't afford it. If I can afford it anyone can. It was just symbolic to him.

Uni R

Flash...

Rightly or wrongly, whatever you are driving when you are doing company business is going to send a message to the customer. Major companies give great thought as to what their salespeople drive. Too modest and they look bush league; too much flash and they look like their price will exceed their value.

Also, many people are very aware of the tax differences that business owners have at their discretion. Everyone knows of a family with a business whose kids all drive company cars yet they are going to university and never go near the plant and that their Beech Baron and 60' boat are all leased in the company name yet only used to entertain friends and relatives. Whether this is the case or not, that's some of the baggage that forms the message you send when driving up in a flashy vehicle whether you are their financial advisor, window replacement salesperson, HVAC guru, landscaper or newpaper deliverer.

It's all about appearances and perceptions and how they balance with customer expectations so that you can end up with a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Whoops... that almost sounds like looking for a spouse!

Unknown

well, that's cool... do you get to explain all that to all your customers that see you drive it?

Maybe you should ding it up a bit and make it look cheap

JohnNY

I agree, Mr. Riso.

My brother (and business partner) and I have spent a great deal of effort trying to find out who the plumber was. Turns out: BIG SURPRISE! He's not licensed, carries no insurance and does business through a garbled answering machine.

There's no one to report him to. He is, to large extent, unaccountable.

We have no reason to believe he's even a citizen of the US.

Believe me, I'm not one to go around making trouble for my fellow tradesman, but this guy deserves to be run out of the business for good.

Scary thing is there are a thousand more just like him.

Don't get me started.

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Tom R.

Knee-cap

I'm thinking maybe Mark wants to pop the wrong guy.

Steve D._4

impressions

I once had someone show up at my house for financial planning services in a beat K-car. His sales presentation wasn't that great so I figured out why he had the car.

Steve D.

Brian (Tankless)

Yahoo founder

Mr Filo, of Lake Charles Louisiana, drove a Datsun 210-B from here to there (California), and he still has it :O)

He knows where he came from.

Brian, from somewhere close to Lake Charles.

BTW, his cousin, Michael Cox (an incredible attorney) has two of my "Seisco" units in his home.

Plumdog_2

Exactly

Why is it that Realtors carry around their clients in a Mercedes? To project an image of success; if they can sell lots of houses and make lots of money, the clients feel they will get their moneys worth because the job will get done. Personally, I would be leary of a heating professional driving up to the job in a beater with bald tires and rust holes; but that's just me.

Mark Hunt

I once met a fella'


that sold water treatment equipment for a HUGE national company. He and I were discussing "sales" one afternoon when he came to do some training at the compamny I was working for.

He said that he used to have an old Buick that would not start for the first couple turns after it had been off for more than 15 minutes. He told me that if he did not close the sale in the home he was in, he would shake the customers hand and head out to his car. He would try the key a couple times and then get out and lift the hood. The customer by now was watching and offering to call a tow truck. The saleman would close the hood, slap his hand on it, look toward Heaven and say out loud, "One more sale and I can get rid of this thing!"...

According to him that piece of junk car helped him get lots of sales. FWIW.

Mark H

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Mad Dog_2

No loss on either account

Mad Dog

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