My side of the story.....(JohnNY)

Mark Hunt

if thie guy askes for a breakdown on EVRY GD THING HE PURCHASES?!?!?!?

Big Mac = $2.09.....Gimme' a breakdown on that.

Steak and Eggs = $8.75........Gimme' a breakdown on that.

ETC................

No fellas'. It's just the service industry that gets hit with this BOGUS request and the service industry just keeps playing along.

Read the letter again. John was called in AFTER the CHEEPO GUYS had their way! He is the HERO here NOT the villan!!! They called him when all others failed! IS HE SUPPOSED TO CHARGE THE SAME AS THE LOSERS?!?!?!?!??!?

Not all PHVAC contractors are equal! Some are better and they have earned MORE than what "uncle Gus" is charging!

Break-down my arse! This has NOTHING to do with that. John performed a service that no-one before him has. He is BETTER than they are, he is worth MORE!

In the immortal words of Firedragon..........FACT!!!!

Mark H

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JohnNY

Mr. XXXX's email: I am \"horrified\" by your bill for $2,500.

Mr. XXXX,

I’m sorry you were “horrified” by your bill. In keeping with the tone of your question, I’ll reply in no uncertain terms.
The plumbing system in your house is indeed horrifying. Not only is it some of the worst workmanship I’ve seen in recent memory, it is dangerous to the structure itself and to you personally.
The conditions which led to several emergency repairs earlier this year are a telling sign of the caliber of contractor to which you are accustomed. I spoke to one of the contractors who worked on your home and he was hostile and uncooperative when I asked for help in resolving some of your safety issues.

I personally inspected your home and found, among many other things but most of all, all of the carbon monoxide ejected from the boiler and water heaters piped directly into the living space via the ground floor fireplace flue.
The renovation to your home is a case-study in incompetence and complacency discussed in several online forums, as it far exceeds the criteria which often precede the tragic winter headlines of entire families killed while they sleep every winter. Those stories are usually reported from low-income housing units, not West Village townhouses.


My company tried to reach you several times about this issue in the early part of this year when Mrs. XXXX hadn’t returned our calls for several weeks, but two weeks ago was the first time I have ever heard from you.

Getting your home into anything approaching a safe, reliable and code-compliant state where your plumbing and heating is concerned is likely to cost several thousand dollars more.

Gateway Plumbing & Heating enjoys an impeccable reputation in your neighborhood as being knowledgeable, responsive and fair. Our jobs are done the right way the first time and we guarantee the results. We strongly suggested in the spring to Mrs. XXXX
that the original plumbing contractor be called back in to remedy the numerous deficiencies in this installation but apparently that company will not return.

If you want us to work at your home, which we are willing to do in good faith, I suggest we have a site meeting when both our schedules allow to discuss those deficiencies, all corrective options and their associated costs.

If not, I suggest you remit payment for the invoice you’ve received so that our company can return to projects where we are not at risk of being involved in damages brought on by the negligent practices of unqualified others.

Since you asked, a crew consisting of one mechanic and one apprentice, both well-trained qualified and working under my license and insurance policy and under my supervision in your home for one full day costs $XXXX plus material. This reflects a 15-20% profit over my direct costs. All invoices are due upon completion of work.

Regards,

John A. Cataneo, Jr.

Gateway Plumbing & Heating


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Weezbo

WoW! What is going on with that ?

Johnny, let me share with you a momment ,just to let you hear another idea...

years ago,on a cold winters day a lady calls At My door....she and her husband are some neighbours it turns out who happen to have spoken with my old friend ,one of the Ancients and who has sinced passed over to another reward.Only as he had suggested would i even have entertained the notion of going there to Look at the problem...Johnny, the place was built after the Tweety bird and sylvester the cat,road runner and Cyote, tom and Jerry style architecture. I helped them, though honestly words were useless ,the place was beyond description,the building has long since Collapsed. Luckily they werent at home asleep at the time.

My thought here is, it is unlikely that much can be done to convey your perspective without peeling out one of the 2 X 4's and easing some of their stuck memory cells. which is just not going to accomplish anything for you, and likely the transformation would only be fleeting for him, at best ,in attempting
Enlightenment in the manner of the Shaolin Monk.

Why is life like that? who knows...thing is you only do yourself harm not to steer away from clients who are obviously oblivious to matters of thier own personal safety ...sorry to say this buh,.. just steer clear of the next opportunity.

I wouldnt let anyone else work with me on thier job by the way as their safety is something i could not ask them to ignore. if you are so inclined to help in those conditions, do not ask anyone else to follow or do that work.it really is a form of suicide. a hidden Death Wish.

the thought may seem harsh buh having the place collapse around your ears might be even more poignant.

keith

Why?

It sounds as if the customer had no idea what the charges would be. Did you ask what they thought was reasonable?

One of the reasons I got out of the residential side of the business is this type of senerio. Over and Over some homeowners can't seem to grasp the cost of doing business.

Most likely it's because we haven't done a good job of representing our selves and the services we provide.

Keith

R. Kalia_8

Why would anyone do a job without getting at least a verbal okay from the customer for either a total price or an hourly rate?

Customer's fault as well for not asking, but even so, it seems to me that the contractor should be up front about it or it's a recipe for disaster.

Mad Dog_2

HEY PAL!!!!!! $2500.00 is cheaper than the cheapest casket

at the local funeral home. You will not find a more responsible, caring, knowledgable and professional plumbing and heating contractor in NYC. You got off cheap! You could be paying for several funerals including your own! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

I'm sorry...caveat emptor! It is incumbent upon the

customer to ask about the cost before work starts. Don't you do that before you have your car fixed? Buy insurance, eat at a restaurant, have a new heating system installed? Mad Dog

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R. Kalia_8

Well, all the restaurants I eat at give me menus (with prices) before I order. I've never heard of anyone buying insurance without a quote; it's not even possible since the price is on the contract. In our state, auto repair shops are required by law to quote prices before beginning work.

I am not denying that in many cases you can't quote a fixed price. But this customer wasn't even told the hourly rate...why not?

I would be very suspicious of any contractor who tried to start work without giving his rate, whether requested or not. That's just not how business is done; it's for your own protection, to avoid situations like the one reported here.

Mad Dog_2

IT does avoid problems like this, but it really is the

homeowner's fault not to ask - downright foolish. I can tell you right now, JohnNY is as honest as they come. Its a shame some people just can't appreciate what the cost of running an above board legit operation - especially in NYC. Most of these people work for big corps or civil service and have NO CLUE as to what "we" the public pay for their complete usually hidden "package" paid hoidays sick days et al Mad Dog

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R. Kalia_8

> Its a shame some people just can't

> appreciate what the cost of running an above

> board legit operation - especially in NYC. Most


Yes, that's true, but it makes it harder if contractors won't help them appreciate it.

I mean, by telling them the price BEFORE beginning work, when customers have the chance to check around and get other estimates and realize how high everybody's rates are. After the work is done, customers can't do that.

kk_2

I don't see how the dangerous (to the customer) condition of the customer's equipment should have any bearing on the bill - the bill should be for work completed, period. I'm not sure I understand the relevance of that in JohnNY's reply to his customer.

JohnNY - I assume you gave the customer an itemized bill? I had a contractor hand me a non-itemized bill for more than I expected one time. I asked for an itemized bill, and when I examined it I discovered a number of errors, which the contractor corrected. An itemized bill at least lets the customer see what's going on.

-kk

Unknown

How do you know

the customer was not given price details beforehand ? I don't see anywhere in John's post that a T and M price was not discussed before work started . I bet John told them the going rate and parts , but could not give them a firm time estimate because of the horrendous problems . And I bet the customer gave him the OK to fix whatever needs fixin' . Another case of buyer's remorse . We see it happen too .

Mad Dog_2

and who's fault is that?????????

I'v e had it happen to me in my own home...Got p.o'd then thought about it.......It was MY fault for not asking...assumming. I think it is Pandemic today.....don't blame yourself...blame someone else...its easier that way! I do make it a RULE in the past few years to ALWAYS discuss price BEfore the job, to avoid these mishaps. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

It has direct bearing on the bill and the urgency in which

the job needed to be corrected...compare that with a $2500 swap out of a sink and toilet.....priorities! I bet John put aside alot of other jobs and better customers to resolve this problem asap. Mad Dog

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lchmb

Then again

J.K, I to have to agree with the other's. The company I work for will give a T+M quote if wanted. We will also give our hourly rate if requested. On call, we also notify customer's of the hourly rate. Then just as soon as the bill is recieved they call up screaming. I had a lady who had no heat, the unit had not been serviced in years, and she called on Sunday. I explained the hourly rate and how the time is broken down. She "didn't care" she just wanted heat and went on to admit she should have had the unit serviced sooner. When she recieved her bill she actually told my manager that she knew how much it cost to put me on the road and we charged to much.

Robert O'Connor_12

Even if you buy on-line!

Only $2300,very nice..

Robert O'Connor/NJ

JohnNY

I've been at it all day.

so I haven't been able to respond until now.

A little background:
This is a 5-story, eight figure home in Manhattan. Why is that relevant? Because he gave us the proverbial "cart blanche" from someone who obviously has the means to pay for what he wants and needs.
The guy is not reachable, at least not by me, all day once he leaves the home. He let us in and said "Do what you have to do". He was as anxious as he was curt.
It's a judgement call that after 20 years in business, I feel qualified to make.

How do you think the conversation would've gone if the guy would've come home to no work done and a note from me saying I didn't think you wanted it because it would cost $2,500.

I realize it's very easy to read this, shake your head, and claim there's a better way. You could be right, of course, but this is one in a thousand that my way has been a problem. Perhaps it's a regional thing. Here in NYC, when Mr. Hotshot tells you to just take care of it, that's what you do.


And you're right, Mad Dog, thank you. I had a hundred other places I could've been that day and every day since.




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EBEBRATT-Ed

And they all drive new fancy cars and have a few boats and a summer house.

The customer OWNES the property. They are the ones responsible to take care of it. If they donn't want it fixed right or are to cheep--let them suffer with what they get

JohnNY

Need more?

The renovation plumbers piped the boiler and (2) 100 gallon water heater flues into a fireplace chimney that was bricked closed on the second floor. The flues dumped 100% of their exhaust gases into the living room on the first floor.
For 18 months, it ran like that. I kid you not. Not one person caught it: not the engineer, architect, contractor, plumbing inspector... no one. The guys wife said the living room heats up really fast when the heat comes on so they have the domestic staff leave the garden doors open when the boiler is on.
Their 3 year old boy had been having unexplained convulsions and chronic illness the whole time.

This guy should be erecting a stature of me in Central Park right now instead of breaking my chops about my rates.

Anyway, that's just my opinion...

...and my side of the story.


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J.K. Lee

> How do you know the customer was not given price details

> beforehand ?


See last para of the letter, which says "Since you asked, here's the rate".

This implies that the guy didn't ask before and wasn't told.

lchmb

OMG

You without a doubt saved him and his family. Your right, he should be putting up a statue of you. And while he's at it paying his bill....People utterly amaze me some day's, want good service, demand everything now but complain if they have to pay a fair price. Bet he would have been screaming up a storm if you had left the note on cost and red tagged the unit....IMHO you price was cheap for saving his family...

Darin Cook_3

John

I have dealt with that type of customer before. Chances are he would have been insulted if you had called with a dollar figure first, especially since he had told you just to fix it. Hopefully Master Jim Davis will get a chance to see this post and get a chuckle out of this one. If the right circumstances had occured, they would all be dead. Well at least the EMT's would have found them clean and warm. If he won't pay slap a mechanics lien on the place.

Me and Mark had a guy who's chimney was plugged solid because all the tile lining had flaked away due to condensing flu gases. His wife had just gone to the emergency room the night before because of bad headaches and flu-like symptoms. We were there to do a energy audit and found all these issues. They had no money but we got the chimney lined and piped properly. They called up a few months later to us and to the Energy Star program slamming us because they had not gotten a Energy star rebate. NOT BECAUSE WE HAD SAVED THEIR LIVES. Maybe to some these folks a dirt nap would be better. You do great work John, some people just don't know how good they got it.








Darin

JohnNY

To keep the record straight:

This bill in question was for other work; a list too long to get into but to give you an idea, he has antique steam radiators connected to his hot water system.
"They used to work before we had the new system put in"

Can you make this stuff up?

Not a chance.

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Mark Hunt

John


If you were just another faceless poster here, I would not be able to reply to your post. But I KNOW you and I would walk to hell and back defending your honor.

To any and all that doubt this man's integrity, John os as honest as the day is long. Easily the nicest PHVAC contractor I have ever had the honor of meeting.

If you want to to knee-cap this guy for ya'....I will. I'll stay at Maddog's house!

Merry Christmas John!

Mark H

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Unknown

Ahh

Yeah I read that last paragraph and misunderstood . Maybe the customer was sent a bill without a breakdown of time and labor ? I hope John gives us some further details about what really happened .

kk_2

OK, Mad Dog - I can see your point about rearranging schedules to fix it ASAP. I didn't realize that was the case here.

-kk

bob young

they are out there

once they figure out you may earn a decent living , jealosy & greed set in. the more they have the worse they are. and most like this i have experienced inherited their cash , they were usually not self made men.

dennis02

Some people just dont know how lucky they are. These people should be dead. With all the gifts and luxury items life has given them common sense obviously was not one of them.

jim lockard

Johnnie

This sounds to be
nothing more then a beat'em down tactic?
Does not matter what your bill is, This customer prides himself on never paying "retail". Kinda like buying a used car. Hope it works out, stand your ground. J.Lockard

Tom R.

Bill paying

Funny how customers like this get a bill for $2.50/gal. fuel oil and just write a check.

S Ebels

Hey!!

I thought I was the nicest guy you knew Hunt!!? Now my feelings are hurt......and so close to the Holiday's......... You've ruined my whole year!!! (I'm reaching for a tissue)

Back to the topic.

I find that nine out of ten times, the people with the big bank accounts are the least grateful for good service. They seem to feel that it's just owed to them because they are who they are. JohnNY, you could call and offer to put everything back the way it was and forget the bill for them. Just let them know you are shutting off the heating system and red tagging it when you leave.

Seriously, most will listen if you respond with kindness and patience. Like the old Proverb says, "Soft words turn away anger". It's true.

Unknown

I think you hit it on the head. My fiancee is a potter... goes to art/craft shows to sell her wares and all that.

This summer we were at one in Camden, ME. Fat Cat territory, to be sure. I was wandering around and chatting with another potter friend there, next to a glassware booth.

Glassware was really nice, too. All prices clearly marked. $50 vases, $75 glass sculptures... quite reasonable prices for the work, no doubt.

This guy rolls in on a SEGWAY... if you don't know, that's a $10,000 toy to replace a bicycle, basically... and proceeds to try to haggle the guy down on the glassware.

Gotta give him credit for balls, but rolling into the booth on a $10k toy, I think, hurt his chances at a successful haggle.

clammy

gettin beat up

If i had a list of all those that beat me down i would gain free entrance to heaven and sit at st.peters right side but sometimes even afetr everything is clear your still left stiff with no payment .Every body with a bunch of coin is more concerned about the paver driveway or there leasted benzs and those with dream and stiff ya any way .Sorry about the rant getting tried on free quotes and fixing others nightmares for free ,but at least i sleep and i think john sleeps pretty good too peace clammy

Dean_7

My Two cents

I'm just a homeowner but if it was me I'd pay the bill period. I try to do my homework so most of the time I know what the real costs are. Once upon a time I taught scuba diving (for about 15 years in fact) and worked part time at a dive store. My students always asked how much the equipment was and why it was so expensive It usually was the people driving the Mercedes' and the BMW's who complained the loudest. The answer was "It's life support equipment. How much is your life worth?" I'd get some real strange looks sometimes but after that they quit complaining. In truth your work is the same. Without warmth people develope hypothermia and can die as a result. Also there is always the issue of CO poisoning which can and does kill people.

Keith_8

Don't bet on it.

That hasn't been my experience.

Somewhere the notion of the oil distributor making the product in his basement and gouging the consumer has become the common philoshy.

Keith

Mad Dog_2

A sniper shot right in to the heart of the matter, Mr Hunt

Why is it that The best doctors, lawyers, athletes, teachers, business execs, coaches, restaurants COMMAND the highest salaries?????????????????????????????????????????
BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST.....BETTER THAN ALL THE REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THEY DESERVE TOP DOLLAR CAN DELIVER THE GOODS LIKE NO ONE ELSE AND THEY GET COMPENSATED FOR THAT. WHY SHOULD TRADESMEN BE ANY DIFFERENT??????????????????????? WHY? BECAUSE MOST OF THIS TRADE UNDERVALUES THEMSELVES AND THE PUBLIC KNOWS IT. I think it was Dik Brown, who drew Hagar The Horrible Cartoon who quipped: "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY.....AND THE ENEMY IS US." THe public will only show us the proper respect when WE carry ourselves as such. Next time your in a restaurant ask for a breakdown on the derived cost of the steak you just got.......keep pushing and you'll be asked to leave. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

AND>>>>>THE CRITICS ARE SILENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the background John, but ANYONE who knows you knows it was not necessary. I've been in your shoes several times. I guess I have been forced to become faster on my feet and with my tongue because I never let people get away with those arrogant and dismissive "money is no object....just do what you have to do.....how much could it be......we'll what choice do I have? your already here...blah blah." $$$ IS ALWAYS the object and I DON"T DO ANY JOBS BIG OR SMALL regular customer or not, until a close price is discused...I've had too many situations like yours when "uncle Gus" comes by a week later to tell them how badly they got screwed.....or the husband says you took advantage of his wife's ignorance......my 90 year old mother didn't understand. The kids that are out of state and see mom less than once a year are the worst. I guess its guilt. John, Mark,Darin, and I will take a roundtrip to Hell and back with you anytime. You are tops in my book. Merry Christmas My Brother. Mad Dog

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ishmael2k

Quotes....

> I think it was Dik Brown, who

> drew Hagar The Horrible Cartoon who quipped: "WE

> HAVE MET THE ENEMY.....AND THE ENEMY IS US."



Actually that quote is from Walt Kelly, writer of the Pogo comic strip during the 50's.

> Resolve, then, that on this very ground, with small
> flags waving and tiny blasts of tiny trumpets,

> we shall meet the enemy,

> and not only may he be ours, he may be us.’


As years passed, the final paragraph was reduced to "We have met the enemy and he is us,"

Rob

jim lockard

The fastest response

To a "Money is no object, just get it done" comment that I have found is, "Well give me your credit card number and we can get started." That always turns the subject back to how much are we talking. Talking money 1st is always a good thing, on a troubleshoot or where I can not place a price I will set a budget, "lets see how far a 1000.0 gets us" type of deal. J.Lockard

J.K. Lee_2

OK, my concerns, about why the HO (in the original post) wasn't told the price or rate, were misplaced.

However, there's another interesting thing in this thread. There's all this talk about the price of the houses, the types of cars owned, etc.

Now I am sure that the hydronics business does not pay as much money as (say) Wall Street. What's it got to do with the price charged? There is a strong implication, in some of these posts, that people are charged based on what you think they can afford.

I myself live in a nice neighborhood; we're poor because of the mortgage payments, but our friends who live in less fancy neighborhoods (and so have more disposable income) get lower quotes than we do for similar work.

I don't think it's right. And I do think it's fair to bargain; bargaining is the only way you reach a mutually agreeable price, it's how free markets work everywhere in the world. You can't run a business based on the expectation that rich customers will overpay you; it's nice to wish for it, but it's not a viable business plan.

Mad Dog_2

Thats great Jim I will use that next time

Mad Dog

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