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Kevin, I apologize that I got off track from the original post. If the person performing plumbing in the rural area for over thirty years was doing so in an area that DID NOT HAVE A PLUMBING CODE over that time frame and has RECENTLY ADOPTED a code, I think that he should be allowed to take the EXAMINATION FOR A LICENSE. I emphasize DID NOT HAVE (a plumbing code), RECENTLY ADOPTED (a code), and TAKE THE EXAMINATION FOR A LICENSE! This is America after all, it wouldn't be fair for an authority to come in and enact a law that puts someone out of business that has been doing so for as long as the individual has been. But there was a reason the code was enacted, to ensure that trained competent individuals are installing and servicing plumbing systems. How do we know this guy knows what he is doing? Only in this case would I consider allowing this person to provide proof that he has been engaged in the "plumbing business" for at least five-years prior to the new code being enacted, to take the examination without completing the required classroom training. I would not just grandfather him a license! Further, if he failed the exam, after two attempts, he would be required to attend the required classroom hours. Now as for the examination! I agree with some other posts that the antiquated techniques are fine for reminiscing at the supply house (and I'm a guy that still tins big copper and taps it with a mallet!), and with no disrespect to some of the guys because I did wipe lead joints, but the physical skill part of the test should reflect the industry norm's modern practices. We need to keep up with the times. Times are a changin' and in this day and age are changin' fast! Just my two cents worth!0 -
amhwrite
I've never tinned big copper, but I did several years in a radiator shop and know exactly what you're talking about. I've tinned with copper irons, but prefer a torch. (unless it's a fuel tank)
As a child vainly trying to build the tin-can submarine in the vintage Popular Mechanics, I thought soldering was some sort of forgotten "black-art." I agree that code is necessary. Mexico would be a nicer place with some of our codes. And as stated, I appreciate learning the old ways. But some of these guys sound more like sicko frat boys at a hazing party than professionals wanting to pass on knowledge. (I had to do this, so YOU have to do this)
I'm not in "the Big Leagues" but my customers are just as important as any. See my post, "NASCAR MECHANICS" higher up in this thread. I'll give it up now, but sincerely wish all of you well and I'm glad you're passionate and professional. Kevin0 -
Tumbler
I even built a tumbler to drum them into submission but they still didn't get soft for long. I visited a commercial tannery once, they had converted Concrete Mixers to tumble hides. Many of these places have been shut down due to Heavy Metals leaching out into the groundwater. Also some very serious Backflow Preventer applications (or lack of).0 -
Hey, I have a knife...
So I want to be a doctor, Iv'e been doing the work without instruction or training for years. I have a combustion analyzer....look at me...I should get a license...look at me...as I try to convience all of you...I have been mistreated...get a god dammm life and stop doing unlicenesed work!!!! I face idoits like you on a daily basis and each and every time I see the children, dead, looking like they are asleep in their beds with the parents arguing they should have hired a licenesed person rather than you. I feel sorry that you feel you are deserving of a ticket, but you are not, so go to school, get the required documented experience and stop endangering my neighbors kids!!!0 -
You need to chill out
Go have a beer or 6. If you've never been to no license land out in the sticks and seen that there ARE guys doing it just as right as you do, STHU. I've seen some pretty sloppy work out of licensed shops as well as Handyman services. Quit attacking the other posters and calling them "stupid" and "idiot". BTW, if you're seeing dead children, get some help
0 -
YES!!!!!!!
Carpenters should be kept from taking the test...good idea. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Perhaps...................................................BUT!!!
are you going to attempt to tell me that a lofty benchmark of craftsmanship - the likes of babbit-scraping or lead wiping - should NOT be the standard-bearer of one's field? The only ones that seem to be complaining are the ones who are not competent enough to perform the task for their license. It is typical PC....lowering of the bar...just give me my license...I spent X amount of years in the trade...I DESERVE it. This PERNICIOUS habit has become deeply manifested in our rotting culture. The cute little analogies about driving a team of horses in the year 2007 and just that - CUTE. Plumbing and heating are MUCH more important and significant occupations that SHOULD require the HIGHEST of STANDARDS. Its a funny thing...I have seen many guys change their tune, once they get ON THE other side and actually pass the test..."....I know what you mean now...I worked HARD for this...we gotta stop these mutts from walking in here so easy...." MARK MY WORDS:
LEAD WIPING IS MY GOLD STANDARD Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Chris next time take only half a prozac.0 -
Can you guys stop fighting about licensing and help me with my riser question??
0 -
Chris & Matt
Chris, pay the sour grapes guys no mind. they will never understand. like Matt said lead wiping is our gold standard. there will never ever be a more difficult task for a plumber to master. it is mostly discontinued now & i have no problem with that. we must move on. wiping was pretty much obsolete when i passed the test & that is almost thirty years ago. and that was only one of many tasks to perform to qualify. that was also probably the hardest day of my life. but it was well worth it.0 -
nuts
> Chris, pay the sour grapes guys no mind. they
> will never understand. like Matt said lead wiping
> is our gold standard. there will never ever be a
> more difficult task for a plumber to master. it
> is mostly discontinued now & i have no problem
> with that. we must move on. wiping was pretty
> much obsolete when i passed the test & that is
> almost thirty years ago. and that was only one of
> many tasks to perform to qualify. that was also
> probably the hardest day of my life. but it was
> well worth it.
0 -
nuts
I cannot beleive i just read all this "stuff".
If you dont want to do the time get out!!!!
Yes passing the test is big, no that does not make you a good plumber. No you cannot learn a fraction of it in 2 years. And yes Pvc and pex are easy but i still see bad jobs with no craftmanship every day, mostly from guys that are not willing to do what is nessary to get a master plumbing licence. And 30 years yuo have to know about getting a licence for at least 20 years, no excuse.
KNOWLEDGEABLE PLUMBING
NORTHERN NEW JERSEY
MASTER LIC. 112480 -
I have been in the trade for better part of my life. My father had me sweating pipe before seventh grade. He learned from a great man for 12 years before he started his own business. I can say without a doubt that our company is one of the best (if not the best) in our area. Our area is small and clients regular. The quality of our work is what brings customers back time and again. I have not taken a trades test nor am I in a union (unions are legalized extortion in my opinion). I take pride in my work and am always trying to improve. Thats why I often read this site and consider Dan the patron saint of heating techs. I agree that it would not be that hard to pick up a book, read it, and pass a test. I did that in high school, college, and graduate school. I also know that I am fortunate to have the experience that I do. I think what is important is to have a love for what you do. I do not think of this as a job but as a passion. Like many have said before on this thread, I have seen poor even dangerous work from all walks claiming to be part of this trade. The best we can do is continue doing the best work we can do, educating and helping one another out like on this site (thanks Dan), and letting our work speak for itself.
p.s. For those of a religious background, if your ever having trouble finding a way to run a pipe, I have a little prayer that usually helps
"Hail Dan, full of grace, help me find a pipiing chase."0 -
I have a unique perspective!
Having lived in the most over-regulated state; where every town, hamlet and sub-divided private community has permitting, enforcement and inspection laws - coupled with police type enforcement powers and courts that always back the inspector, never the plumber/contractor in America for much of my life...
And moving to the least regulated state on the planet where only three of over 100 towns has adopted plumbing codes, has any form of enforcement - which is so weak that it might as well be non-existent, and where the courts frequently yield to stupidity as a legal defense for blatent code transgressions...
I have no strong pereference for either extreme. The problem of state-wide codes, licensure and strict enforcement is the huge bureaucratic nightmare it creates. This "nightmare" compromises the very end-result well-meaning bureaucrats attempts to invoke - thereby encouraging non-compliance and those who find a niche in that rather lucrative slice of endeavor. We call that niche: "Jack-legging."
If we ever eliminate the political appointments, PAC interests, bad code adoptions, code conflicts, broad opportunities inspectors have in enforcement options and interpretations, reasonable and speedy appeals process for contractors who are legit and run into over-bearing, pompous and suspect inspectors, we may resolve the nightmares permanently; but until we do, I find too many shortcomings in either extreme - and little to hope for.0 -
HALEY
YOU SOUND LIKE A MAN THAT TAKES PRIDE IN DOING THE RIGHT JOB, I SUSPECT IF THERE WAS A LICENCE IN YOUR AREA, YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THING AND GET YOUR LICENCE. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE GUY'S THAT FLY UNDER THE RADAR AND DONT! BE CAUSE IT IS TO MUCH TROUBLED OR COST TO MUCH TO BE LEGAL,
(OVERHEAD, BOND, INSURANCE, CONTINUING EDUCATION).
THAT IS HARD TO ACCEPT FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DID IT THE RIGHT WAY. I FIND THAT MOST GUYS WILLING TO SKIP THAT PART USUALLY SKIP DOING THE JOB THE RIGHT WAY BECAUSE IT WAS TO HARD OR COSTS TO MUCH.
KNOWLEDGEABLE PLUMBING
NORTHERN NJ
LIC 112480 -
Well said
as usual Ken but could we call it something other than "jack-legging".
:-)
Jack0 -
how bout
trunk-slammers?
Dead-on Ken. The one thing I'd add, there's no enforcement - nada, zip, not one damn bit - for anyone working outside the laws, rules, or regs. Least ways, not in these parts. In spite of PA having adopted a state-wide code, we still have the type of government Ken mentions in the first part.
Every permit we obtain has a $2 education fee attached. After one too many lousy inspections where the so-called inspector did little to nothing in the way of inspecting our work, I called up the state of PA to ask what the hell they did with all that money. It funds a college for inspectors, but they don't get to go for free & most must go on their own time - you know what that means. So, I suggested we develop a check-list to aid inspectors who lack the required experience they don't have. That fell on deaf ears. Not interested, was the reply. Said that would be too regimented! So much for improving a lousy condition.
As for the original poster's question? I've followed this thread and can't really weigh in because I don't know you or the level of skills you have. Having never worked with a plumber and, evidently, learning most of what you do on your own, it's a tougher call than I'd make off the cuff.
We too had the political nonsense noted earlier. You were either "connected" and got a license, or you didn't have a smow ball's chance in hell. The test doesn't test actual skills used in the field, it tests your knowledge of codes and ability to correctly draw a DWV system.
Our local codes enforcemnent officers that oversee the test screwed the pooch years ago by letting an architect take the masters' test. That allowed others to force open the door and take the test. A former employee of ours forced his way in without serving the required hours by bringing a lawyer into the mix who threatened to sue. They caved in & he took the test. He tossed his license on my desk and expected the boost in pay we give legit Journeymen. I told him it wasn't worth the paper it was written on & he stormed out. Next, they let him take the Masters test a year ahead of the required field-working time & he promptly went into business! If nothing else, you appear to have put in the time. The only question in my mind regards the quality of that time with respect to performing the work correctly. If I sat in judgment, I'd want access to no less than a dozen of your installations to see for myself if your work is up to standards worthy of testing and issuing the license.0 -
Amazing...
The state that was once the capital of the United States and the model/basis of the law of this nation - cannot get plumbing laws enforced after two hundred years of leadership.
Amazing.
0 -
maybe
they took out all the ungraded & unstamped lumber since moving in too!?!
http://www.ydr.com/businessfull/ci_4966118
Yup, it's a sad state of affairs, but it's not just PA - it's everywhere.0 -
plumbers
Alladin Plumbing is owned by a Middle Eastern guy and has numerous of his unlicensed "people" working as plumbers while he drives around in his Mercedes. He even opened his own supply house Bethlem Plumbing supply.0 -
Half a dead man, Mad Dog
Have you ever demonstrated proficiency in building, running, and tapping wooden supply water piping like the original dead men? It wasn't on your test? Oh, just the lead wiping. O.K. Nevermind, in 100 years as people admire the excellent craftsmanship on your steam systems, they probably won't wonder or care whether you could wipe lead or anything else. Respectfully, Kevin0 -
Yes I understand. VERY clearly
He nows wants to come clean and do things right after years of skirting the license issue. Look, no one is perfect or has the perfect sitaution, but it really irks me when someone makes a career out of non-compliance. Why bother now? I am making a general statement, all cases should be reviewed separately. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
No.....BECAUSE .................................................
I was NEVER asked to. When I sought out my license...NOTHING WAS STOPPPING me. I would have done ANYTHING mechanical they had asked. In fact, the old timer who gave me my test ASKED if I would rather do a lead pan or wipe lead. Just about everyone I know, would have GLADLY chose the Lead Pan. THAT is not in Mad Dog's character. I proudly wiped the lead. Kevin, I think this discussion has gotten out of hand. We have made our points. I don't know if we ever met, but you are a nice fella...so am I....let's stop now. Respectfully, Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Where is
LD who started all this?
Studying for his test? I had to say that before Brad did.
:-))
Jack0 -
.
Retired and loving it.0 -
Perfect timing.......................................
Opened up the latest Yellow Book for my town, of which we adverstise in....right in the middle of all the other LICENSED Plumbers ads is a plumbing and heating ad - with all the trimmings, i.e., gas work, all the things that REQUIRE one to have a license to do, being performed by a "licensed" G.C. Couldn't believe it! It gets better...he's not licensed - even as a GC in our Village. I called close to a dozen lic. plumbers who advertise in this book....only two called me back. I really try to watch the licensed P & H contractors backs - especially the competitors that have some class. I guess they have given up. Yellow Book claims they are not repsonsible for checking for licenses before someone takes out an ad. The Village says they can't do anything unless they catch him. Sometimes I wonder why I even give a --- hoot anymore. It really has become every man for himself. Our trade is wide open to anyone who wants to claim it...boy how I have seen it change in the last 20 years: complacency and a malaise have taken hold. I may very well pull my ad for next year. I'll have to see what The Suits at Yellow Book do about it. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
MD
Pulling your ad is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It won't hurt the unlicensed guy at all, only you. Think about it.0 -
That may be true....that is why I will wait and see what happens
I was thinking of doing it anyway because the bulk of our leads are W.O.M. and now internet. That ad was great the first few years we got going. I'll wait and see. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Self Policing
Whether it be the threat of the box stores, the utilities or your neighbor down the street it is up to us to self police!
Don't be afraid to turn in that unlicensrd contractor, that do-it-yourselfer turrned do it for everybody. They are not only breaking statutes regarding licensure they most often are tax evading! Do it for cash I am sure is not only practiced here in Wisconsin!
How do dentists,doctors,meat markets,restaurants, etc police violators??? My guess is they cry foul! WE should not have to do this but a few examples of stiff penalties will get around.
Use your inspectors not only for inspection but for enforcement.We have tough licensing laws here in Wisconsin and a great deal of work still falls between the cracks.
Those of you who have all the proper licenses deserve better that competing with garage or trunk mechanics!
Instead of cumbersome and almost unenforceable local or county codes move to a stste wide uniform code where the playing field is level. (Whether you work in Manhattan or some cabin town in upstate New York.)
This is all doable if you get heads together and play fair across the board!
Otherwise kiss our livelyhood good buy and watch insurance claims rise!!!
WE need to be proactive not reactive. We are as stated in previous threads "Guardians of the Nation's Health"
Rich K.0 -
Rich
What to do when the various municipalities do not go after those turned in and only chase after those with licenses???0 -
Well, for starters
We could lobby to make Homeowner Permits a lot more difficult to obtain. The Underground Plumbers and Electricians and such rely on Homeowner Permits to sneak in and do the work without direct accountability. Most inspectors around here are aware; but don't put forth any effort to catch them. Some municipalities will not issue permits to owners of Condos and Townhomes; because it's not just the owners property and safety at stake. Property rights are important, sure, but what of the future owners safety and well-being? A lot of properties become run down and "distressed" because of Home Improvements Gone Bad. Years ago the Inspectors would stop and inquire when they saw a water heater box or furnace box outside a home, but not anymore. In fact, I've heard from sources that should know that Big Box Central has hired installers that work under a Blanket Permit that covers all the work without any inspections. How do you feel about that?0 -
Response
The officials are paid by taxpayer dollars! scream like hell!
Rich K.0 -
Dave Yates and Rich hit it
Dave and Rich hit it right on the nails...
Here, the inspectors pissed away their time going after the licensed plumbers while the unlicensed are doing the jobs right under their nose. Yes, inspectors are paid by taxpayers and support by brown nosing the state polications with legal extortation from licensed plumbers.
Another way of protecting the licensed plumbers and other licensed trades is to stop requiring to show our licenses in yellow pages, business cards, ads..etc... The hackers are using those numbers and putting them down on the permits without us knowing and then we wasted our time defending that we never did the jobs.. Just say we are licensed and prove it when inquiry about the job... Another thing, have the inspector show THEIR license while on the jobs as I've seen them refused to show me while we have a disagreement and didint know diddly what he talking about.0 -
I am with them....
much like our criminal justice system, the enforcement is a
joke. No one wants to stick their neck out for the sake of THEIR OWN TRADE! Its more than 36 hours since I placed those calls to the contractors who also advertise on the page.....still ONLY two have called back. I know these people too. Whatever, I can control only my sphere. This is really nothing new....people LOVE to complain, but put a pitchfork in their hands and they can't be bothered. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
We tried MD
Local PHCC chapter invited all local PI's to a dinner meeting. Only two bothered to attend. One with Commonwealth, a third-party inspection agency, brought along his books. He freely admitted he only had to study the plumbing section for a few hours prior to the test!
He also freely admitted there was zero interest in pursuing scofflaw outfits or outlaws doing work without a license or permit. "You guys are an easy target - we know who you are & your trucks are lettered & you have a license we can take away."
In VA, if you're doing a hydronic system, you need an engineer's stamp on the plans &, from what I'm told by contractors there,0 -
apathy
It is the same on the western end of the state. I understand the city of Pittsburgh is vigilant when it comes to inspections. Other municipalities, not. I have heard Pittsburgh city inspectors will cruise neighborhoods looking for signage on trucks that haven't gotten permits. Not much you can do if trucks have no advertising.
I think cash strapped cities are using this as a way to raise revenue.
Our cash strapped town has an inspector that does the same thing, rides around neighborhoods with a list of tradesman that have paid the annual right to work fee. If he sees any work going on at a residence or signage on a truck that is not on his list will stop and enquire, what permits, ect. If not paid he fines immediately. It's a well known fact amongst the tradesmen so they get the permits.
Rural areas nothing is enforced.
My renovation project used licensed plumbers from a reputable firm. No permits, no inspection, no tax man wanting additional tax assemements for improvements to the property.0 -
You Consider This Fair?
> It is the same on the western end of the state. I
> understand the city of Pittsburgh is vigilant
> when it comes to inspections. Other
> municipalities, not. I have heard Pittsburgh city
> inspectors will cruise neighborhoods looking for
> signage on trucks that haven't gotten permits.
> Not much you can do if trucks have no
> advertising.
>
> I think cash strapped cities are
> using this as a way to raise revenue.
>
> Our cash
> strapped town has an inspector that does the same
> thing, rides around neighborhoods with a list of
> tradesman that have paid the annual right to work
> fee. If he sees any work going on at a residence
> or signage on a truck that is not on his list
> will stop and enquire, what permits, ect. If not
> paid he fines immediately. It's a well known fact
> amongst the tradesmen so they get the
> permits.
>
> Rural areas nothing is
> enforced.
>
> My renovation project used licensed
> plumbers from a reputable firm. No permits, no
> inspection, no tax man wanting additional tax
> assemements for improvements to the property.
0 -
You Consider This Fair?
You just admitted you are tax evading, do you sleep ok at night? Others who do pay there fair share do things right.
Sorry but you are bragging about cheating the system!!!
Care to leave your e-mail or home address? If not how about some of your neighbors addresses so we can ask them about your brazen behavior. If I was your neighbor,I would turn you in!
R.Kontny0 -
well Rich,
I think his post actually does more in the way of supporting our concerns than in denigrating legit players. The fact is that the current system, the level of enforcement, the lack of any real inspections taking place, and the fact that it's become little more than a revenue stream - has turned ordinary law-abiding contractors and citizens into cheat, liars and crooks by virtue of their circumventing the existing permitting laws.
It's tough for me to blame them anymore. Lowes and Home Depot led the way along with the other DIY big box stores while using their clout to flaunt code required permits for a wide variety of products sold - knowing full well (wink, wink) that the installers had little, if any, intention of hiring licensed pros or obtaining permits for work where we would be required to get permits and proccure inspections. Once our municipalities chose to "look the other way" while flagrant violations took place, in plain sight, the cat was out of the bag.
That genie is long out of the bottle. Absent any enforcement where work "outside of the rules, regs, and laws" is concerned, anarchy will always follow. Legit contractors are being forced to break the laws in order to compete and survive.0 -
Blasphemy is unprofessional Chris
It's also a violation of the 3rd commandment.
Think of yourself as a flagrant violator of the ultimate code. Kevin0
This discussion has been closed.
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