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Plumbing Contractors License
Comments
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Mine isn't plbg Bob,
It's for gas fitting. It's issued by a town so small the name should be written on both sides of the sign. I'm not kidding, I would like to learn about wiping lead joints. I'm sure there is a lot more skill involved than gluing PVC. But my interest would be totally nostalgia. I imagine it's similiar to tinning and lead filling in auto body restoration.My retired friend told me that the "Sawsall" took all the work out of plumbing. They drilled holes by hand and connected the dots with a key-hole saw. And he fondly remembers pouring joints in cast soil pipe.
Modern methods are in some ways lowering the necessary skill required for craftsmen. It's possible they may need more head-knowledge, but sadly, anyone who can use a pliers can make a leak-proof waterconnection. That sure doesn't guarantee a neat, safe, job. Kevin0 -
wiping joints
they want you to wipe a joint because it is hard. If you can learn to do that, they figure you have mechanical skills. You never use half the stuff on the test either, but they want to make sure that you have the ability to learn. I was lucky enough to go to a Vocational school for 3 years with an excellent plumbing course, I could have passed the test right out of high school, but I was not a plumber, by any account. There are some things best learned from another Lic. Plumber. Bob Gagnon Master Lic. #9694
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and.........................................
Let me guess...you don't have a license do you? Lead wiping shows a high degree of manual dexterity and competence. I am DAMNED proud I wiped lead and passed. If I had taken the easy way out I would not feel worthy of The Deadmen who came before. Call me Old School or Neanderthal...I wear that badge proudly. Mad Dog
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wiping lead
Seems like the test is designed to artificially limit the supply of licensed plumbers. It's a protectionist racket.0 -
Brian
Just because you can pass a test doesn't mean you should have a license. There are other requirements to even take the test. At least that's how it is in MA. anyone could pass a test if they study enough or take it enough times it doesn't mean they know what they are doing.
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members only
It seems pretty obvious to someone looking at this from the outside that the principal objective of a lot of this
hoop-jumping, is (as Ed has just said) to limit member-
ship to to this exclusive club (or at least to make the
members feel like it's pretty exclusive).
If you haven't learned after 2 years that you never lie
a sanitary tee on it's back, I don't think 2 more years
is really going to help you much, and vice-versa.
-JimH0 -
looking at it from the inside
I don't see how you can expect to learn it all in 2 years. When I had a few years in the trade I thought I knew it all. Then when I had 10 years in I thought I really knew it all, and laughed at how little I really knew after only a few years. Only when I had 20 years experience did I realize, that I would always have something else to learn, and I knew much more than I did, with 10 years experience. There is a lot more to it than just laying sanitary tees.
Bob Gagnon
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two year plumbers
very well put Bob. i have been doing plumbing & heating for over forty five years and still learning new techniques every single day. some guys just think they know it all. i am not one of them.0 -
Why, Jim?
Why are you only reading one line of my post?
LB Ed0 -
Knowledge
The more I learn, the more I learn, how much I have to learn! The two levels of ignorance are as follows:
#1 You don't know, you don't know.
#2 You KNOW you don't know.
Then you can begin to learn. If you are humble enought not to act like you know it all. I try never to be ashamed of not knowing. And try never to be proud of knowing what someone else doesn't. Whatever I know, I learned once, somewhere, from someone. And I learned a lot of it here. Thanks guys. Kevin0 -
I don't agree...
The legislature passes laws for licensure.
Making "exceptions" is illegal.
Don't tell me you didn't know the rules before now. The rules are minimal and everyone agrees the statutes are marginally better than none at all; however, regulation is generally a good thing and keeps the trash we encounter every day from running the "legits" out from no insurance, poor workmanship and the threat of laws with teeth.
The rules are the rules. Play by them or get a new vocation.
As already mentioned, there are legal ways around the laws, use 'em.0 -
Tan Hides?
That is no easy task. I send them to a tannery after many failed attempts.0 -
one last try
as i understand your question regarding the "contractors" license, here in Mich the plumbing laws, (rules) in 03, were changed to echo the electrical licenseing scenerio, (in mich) where the contractor license was generated to allow unskilled business types to "own" a plumbing shop, get work, apply for permits, and "manage" a herd of workmen. On the permit is requried to state who is designing and over-seeing the work on site, this would require the contractor to employ a master, at the very least. this license exam is mainly, the law, some administration stuff, and of course some buseiness (money) stuff. No plumbing stuff as he is only the contractor of plumbing. He does no installs, designs, soldering, crawling or getting dirty... like certain government types and pimps in general, he makes his way earing a percentage of what the jobs go for. Dont know if it is set up this way in other state though, good luck0 -
I think we are always learning like you say. But having a license does not make you a good plumber. I have been on many disasterous jobs that a "master" plumber had been on. A plumbers license is an irrelevant necessity. Not to take anything away from the apprentice program or anything, but you can beat something into someones head so many times and if they're not going to get it they're not going to get it. Maybe they are sloppy. We dont have to do any practical here in MN maybe that would be a good thing. Maybe it should all be practical. BEN0 -
And I think he is trying to use
those legal ways.
So ..... you move to Vermont a few years earlyer and decide to continue to work in yur givin trade. Should you have to start as an apprentice for the total period of time and then be allowed to take the test OR ... Should your Years and Years of experience allow you to take the Vermont test ????
Scott
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Ben
Maybe if you had a better inspectional dept. these jobs by Master Plumbers would be allowed. Passing a test does not mean that you will follow the rules or use the knowledge you have gained.
Your right, beating something into some ones head dosn't mean they will get it and taking a test will prove that !!
I have seen many botched JOBs by unlicensed heating compnays. A license is not an irrelevant necessity, unless of course you don't have one ??
Where did you learn your trade ? I am sure you worked for someone who passed in the trade and then you took it further by reading , correct ? Would'nt that be an apprentice program ? I would rather see a licence for Heating as well.
I would also rather see the Master Plumbers test have more to do with running a business than a question thrown in about how much 25% mark-up.
Scott
I really take
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Come on Scott.
LD claims he was "self-employed". How do you work for a licensed plumber when self-employed?
Ken is right and your analogy wrong. Ken would be allowed to take the test from his vast experience as a "licensed" individual from another state.
LD may have some type of license that the State would recognize but many on this thread have taken a huge leap because he doesn't say that.
It's just as possible LD is one of those horrible words many on this site have used in the past to describe someone who never gets licensed but "steals" work from those who have.
We can not have it both ways.
I agree he has every right to apply, with honey, and see what the AHJ says but would be inclined to deny if I was on the board with the information we have.
Jack0 -
Another ricdiclious thread...
I think I'm going to start my own surgery practice, obviously going to trade school for five years and suffering under more knowledgeable plumbers for that time was something I could have avoided if only I read that "Plumbing for dummies book." Think of all the time I would have saved. And I can pick and choose what I want to learn because obviously being self taught I know more than the rest of you Then Im going to start my own business and teach others so I can make more money0 -
I have been biting my lips on this one
Back in 87', I passed the plumber test and I was frowned upon, why? I didn't have any class hours or wasn't in the union.
All I had to prove was the work hours I had while being appreciate(sp). I just study the code book that was given by the state. I used to believe that having the license is to prove ur knowledge and workmanship in the plumbing trades.. Now I had my bad share of those so called plumbing inspectors who doesn't know or won't update their knowledge. They waste their time going after the paid licensed plumbers than going after the unliecensed jacklegs where its pretty obvilous with all those big boxes stores surrounding us.
Remember, the old timers, plumbers, business men came together and agreed to have plumbing codes to protect the health of nation long before the health dept and goverment made it into a legal extortion dept...0 -
Plumdog
Getting them "tanned" is not so bad. Getting them soft and supple, I'm not real proficient at. (not complex, but labor intensive) I read a book of a guy in Kansas who routinely turns deer-hides into buckskin in 8 hours if weather conditions are right. Kevin0 -
rjbphd
You bring up a good point. This thread started with L.D WANTING to make himself legitimate and accountable to the powers that be. Despite the ensuing arguement, all should agree that L.D.s desire is a GOOD thing for all concerned.
As you said, there are LOTS of guys doing shoddy work licensed or not. But if the guy is NOT licensed, he's not pulling permits and they may never find his work to inspect it. Meanwhile, sillcocks with no vacuum-breaker for example, can be bought and installed by anyone at a 10000 box stores and hardware stores nationwide. Guys like L.D. are not the problem. Kevin0 -
Gentlemen
As a tradesmen who did the 5 year apprenticeship, the 3 year journeymenship and passed my Wiconsin, my Minnesota,my Michigan and my Georgia master's exams the first time I say don't look for shortcuts!
The trade is more complex today than ever! The code, the license structure and inspections are there for the public's safety!
As far as the hacks doing work, you have an enforcement issue not a licensing issue. Since when do two ir three or however many wrongs make a right????
The unfair part is when they make exceptions to the rule(then it no longer a rule!)
If you don't meet the requiremements and they make an exception what does that do to those of us who studied hard and paid all our dues?
Next to doctors who deals with more issues pertaining to health????
Water is truly mankind's most precious natural resource and should be handled by those who are truly trained to do so!!!
If you have what it takes pursue it the proper manner,if you live in Wisconsin I would be more than happy to help you attain entry level licensure that can lead you to a
full masters.
Don't mean to sound mean spirited here but these are the facts.
Rich K.
Make Peace Your Passion!
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Jack
Having read your post Jack, I think you are absolutly correct. I think the idea got lost in the thread. I was thinking of someone who was from another State but qualified.
Knowledge of work does not equate expereince or talent.
I will slink away
Scott
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Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
According to guys who don't study, worked off the books and can't pass the test. Mad Dog
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QUOTE:"As far as the hacks doing work, you have an enforcement issue not a licensing issue."
Right, so licensing won't guarantee quality, safety, and integrity, but it MIGHT help with enforcement.
Man, you collect licenses like some folks collect the new statehood quarters!
Way to go! You should be passionate and proud of your accomplishments. Kevin0 -
Ron,
You nailed it!
The licensure laws were NOT founded on some health issues or, some notion of forcing anyone to do it right. They were founded by those that had enterprise designs and wanted to make them and them alone the arbiters of plumbing.
In NJ, if your last name didn't end in a vowel, you were scorned and prevented from acquiring the newly "required" licensing.
Now, some fifty years later it has changed. Licenses are numbered in the 15,000+ numer sequence, suggesting there are 15,000 licensed plumbers in NJ, with most of them having unlicensed plumbers in their employ; probably on the order of 5 employees doing plumbing, to each bona fide license holder. This does not include the plumbing unions, most of whom are NOT license holding plumbers, merely journeyman union plumbers.
The plumbing trade once a joke, now resembles more of what it should be, but there's still a long way to go IMHO.0 -
Research...
You should research the origins of plumbing licensing in places such as Chicago and New York City if you are truly interested. Your views will change.
Tens of thousands of deaths were attributed to bad sanitation and water supply, at least in New York, before licensing was demanded.
I can't speak for everywhere, but in these two cities the licensing laws were written in the blood of those whose demise was attributed to the lack of these standards.
Long Beach Ed0 -
Ever seen the book Ed?
> You should research the origins of plumbing
> licensing in places such as Chicago and New York
> City if you are truly interested. Your views will
> change.
>
> Tens of thousands of deaths were
> attributed to bad sanitation and water supply, at
> least in New York, before licensing was demanded.
> I can't speak for everywhere, but in these two
> cities the licensing laws were written in the
> blood of those whose demise was attributed to the
> lack of these standards.
>
> Long Beach Ed
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Ever seen the book Ed?
A book called, "The good old days- They were TERRIBLE!"
It's probably 30 years old or so. Lots of photos and stories of bad sanitation, unsafe food, maimed children working in factories, etc... etc... Pretty interesting.
I've lived in enough 3rd world countries that I can appreciate some code. I like my sewage piped underground rather than flowing in the streets thank you. If all tradesmen and code officials were honest, decent, competent and wise, the world would be better off.
Kevin0 -
Yes, I have that one...
If you ever get the chance, check out information on "privy vaults","school sinks " and "night scavengers".
The privy vaults were out-houses with a bucket that the night scavengers hoisted out, carried on their shoulders and dumped in their carriage to bring to the river...
Their carts bore a yellow lamp and the words "Night Scavenger". They were licensed too.
LB Ed0 -
Gross me out! that had to be an English custom?0 -
How else can we do it?
I have been a master plumber for nearly thirty years and at one time or another have touched just about every issue that has been raised pro/con against licensure and on any "given day", just about all can be a valid point. On any given day, but not everyday! Does having a license provide a guarantee that the customer is getting an expert with experience on their issue on that "given day"? Absolutely not!!! However, the person that has completed an apprenticeship program (hands on and technical), passed an examination to demonstrate that they learned something from that apprenticeship, and obtained and maintained a license is better equipted to handle an issue than Joe the handyman that can muddle through with his torch, solder and paste and get a leak proof joint! Not to pick on Joe, I'll concede that he can make perfect solder joints, and better than the best licensed plumber ever born! He can also make neat perfect PVC joints, with purple primer too! But does he have any ideas about proper plumbing principles, theory and practice,(I think if he did, he would have gotten his license!), that one is taught in an apprenticeship program? Joe's perfect solder joints could be on a waterline feeding a boiler without a backflow preventer on it, or on a shower valve that has no scald guard protection! The perfect PVC joints on that nice new bathroom he built completely on his own may have an un-trapped and vented tub at the end of the run (seen all three more than once I might add!) Everything was neatly ran and leak tight though! All potentially dangerous and unsanitary conditions unknowingly created by Joe. Having a license insures that the person having it has at least touched on all of the broad principles at some point in time! To pass the exam and get the license, the person had to know the boiler waterline had to have the backflow preventer, the shower valve had to have a scaldguard, and the tub had to be trapped and vented (all three very elementary principles I might add!) Now whether or not this guy does it is another story, but at least he has a better understanding of how it should be done! Like every other profession, there are going to be dishonest people, and people more skilled than others, but for the most part, as with the other professions, it's the exception, not the rule! How else can we do it? Complete an apprenticeship program, OBTAIN & MAINTAIN A VALID LICENSE!!!0 -
okay...
Okay, I know I'm going to take little heat for this...
First off, you guys who do skyscrapers and hospitals, my
hat's off to you!, Ditto for anybody who's roughed a whole
house with XH hub and spigot cast iron with lead/oakum
joints, not to mention the guys who are on the front line
of the fight against legoinella.
However, at least 80% of the work which is done is light
residential and commercial. Running copper, pex, and glueing together pvc/abs. This is not rocket science! Are
you saying that after 1000 hours of classroom training and
2 years (4160 hours) on the job, you still can't trust a
guy to get it right, he needs *another* 4000 hours?
When you combine this with stuff like the lead wiping, it
really starts to look like the object is to keep the out
the carpenters. It seems pretty comparable to making a
guy demonstrate competency with a team of Clydesdales
before you give him a license to drive an 18-wheeler.
I'm not saying anything bad about you guys at the top of
the trade, which is probably all of you who care enough to frequent the Wall!
-JimH0 -
amhwrite, excellent points
> I have been a master plumber for nearly thirty
> years and at one time or another have touched
> just about every issue that has been raised
> pro/con against licensure and on any "given day",
> just about all can be a valid point. On any
> given day, but not everyday! Does having a
> license provide a guarantee that the customer is
> getting an expert with experience on their issue
> on that "given day"? Absolutely not!!! However,
> the person that has completed an apprenticeship
> program (hands on and technical), passed an
> examination to demonstrate that they learned
> something from that apprenticeship, and obtained
> and maintained a license is better equipted to
> handle an issue than Joe the handyman that can
> muddle through with his torch, solder and paste
> and get a leak proof joint! Not to pick on Joe,
> I'll concede that he can make perfect solder
> joints, and better than the best licensed plumber
> ever born! He can also make neat perfect PVC
> joints, with purple primer too! But does he have
> any ideas about proper plumbing principles,
> theory and practice,(I think if he did, he would
> have gotten his license!), that one is taught in
> an apprenticeship program? Joe's perfect solder
> joints could be on a waterline feeding a boiler
> without a backflow preventer on it, or on a
> shower valve that has no scald guard protection!
> The perfect PVC joints on that nice new bathroom
> he built completely on his own may have an
> un-trapped and vented tub at the end of the run
> (seen all three more than once I might add!)
> Everything was neatly ran and leak tight though!
> All potentially dangerous and unsanitary
> conditions unknowingly created by Joe. Having a
> license insures that the person having it has at
> least touched on all of the broad principles at
> some point in time! To pass the exam and get the
> license, the person had to know the boiler
> waterline had to have the backflow preventer, the
> shower valve had to have a scaldguard, and the
> tub had to be trapped and vented (all three very
> elementary principles I might add!) Now whether
> or not this guy does it is another story, but at
> least he has a better understanding of how it
> should be done! Like every other profession,
> there are going to be dishonest people, and
> people more skilled than others, but for the most
> part, as with the other professions, it's the
> exception, not the rule! How else can we do it?
> Complete an apprenticeship program, OBTAIN &
> MAINTAIN A VALID LICENSE!!!
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amhwrite, excellent points
and well articulated. But the whole point of this thread is about a man with 30 years of experience wanting to make himself accountable to the code/licensing authorities and prove that he IS knowledgable and doing it right. He is from a rural area where licensing was not required, but perhaps he DID apprentice with a competent teacher.
Noone owes him anything. But shouldn't the people in charge have the discretion to make a call in his favor if he is qualified and they choose to do so? THAT is the only question here. Kevin0 -
If that
is the only question, put me in the YES column. The AHJ absolutely should have the discretion to make a call.
Jack0 -
super license
You never told us where you got that gas fitting license,Kevin. did it require an actual test or is it simply issued like a library card. also i am impressed that you have the influence to circumvent the code and inform the inspector you are changing it to suit your particular situation. now, that is a bold statement. i just could not get away with that in new york city. our inspectors do not give us that kind of respect. that is one powerful license you hold,Kevin0 -
Collection?
If you are brought up by a plumber, evolve into a mechanical contractor and work projects in four different states you might find the time to do it right also.
I don't live out east I live in the Midwest and as a project foreman I volunteered to take these exams to broaden my expertise.
If any of you do bid and spec work for commercial and institutional projects you would be politely asked to leave without the proper licenses.
Ken I am very surprised at your response because I always felt you liked to do things right! Once again maybe I have been spoiled by a well ran plumbing industry in a state that has a statewide uniform code.
Proper licensure is part of our code, how can you bad mouth those who do unlicensed work while asking for breaks in the process????
I am proud of my license,worked hard for it and am proud to say I am a big league professional. If you are looking for shortcuts there simply are none. I now have about 78,000 hours in the trade with 10,000 as an apprentice, 6,000 before I could write my master(s) and the remaining since then.
Enough Said!
WI Master Plumber #2258750 -
Ooh, I'm not worthy
QUOTE: "proud to say I am a big league professional"
Well, I'm not ashamed to say I'm a small fish in a big pond.
No job too small! I guess Enron appeared big for a while. Who knows what tomorrow may bring.
But isn't it nice that we can still speak our mind in America! Honestly glad you're doing well.
Kevin0 -
The \"illnesses\" of NYC, and health \"issues\"...
prior to licensure were one problem.
Political corruption and the methods used to confer licenses on those who wanted one, quite another.
If your brother-in-law wanted a license, and you were a NYC councilman or party boss, his test scores were fudged. It had little to do with talent, knowledge or serving apprenticeships, and everything to do with corruption and pay-offs.
Today, it is what we would want. Yesterday, insopectors were being indicted for corruption. It is truly a black mark on the beginnings of most skilled trades that corruption and nepotism was the norm, not the exception.0
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