System 2000 Price Questions

Cary Alon

Hi Techman,

I've said a few times that I am willing to spend more if shown the value of it.

I don't generally buy the lowest, or the highest.

If you educate me as to why your system is ths best, from a design, installation, and maintenance perspective, and I can do a ROI with some sort of decent payback, I will buy it.

Up front cost is not the only factor - ongoing operating and maintenance costs, as well as hearing my wife complain or be satisfied all factor in to that ROI.

So I'll go back to what I stated before - Yes, I'll pay more if I see the value.

I'm relatively satisfied with the system I ended up with, but I was willing to spend more for a more efficient system. That's what's so frustrating.

D107

this thread does hit the nerve

I think Cary's and Techman's comments are very illustrative of industry-wide problems. A few thoughts:

1. The find-a-pro section is only advertisement; they are not pre-screened contractors. Though one would hope that ads at such a website would attract a high calibre of pro. (I think they generally do.)

2. I believe a contractor can be very competent but also be unwilling to take the time to answer customer questions. That may be because:

a-they have been previously burned by many customers who
never gave them the job OR

b-They consider it a waste of their time and don't want to work with an informed customer.

c-They haven't figured out a way to manage their time enough to be able to give potential customers the info and still have time to manage their schedule and workload. This is where Mad Dog's post presents a solution. A well constructed website would save an installer MUCH TIME. Most of what a customer might want to know about references, job photos, philosophy, standard installation practices, etc. can be listed there. Customer could read all that before any estimate took place.

Many Wallies themselves decry the state of hydronics contracting; I think Cary's experiences sound very typical. It is typical of contracting in general. Whatever home improvements I've made I've had to log significant time to educate myself so I knew enough to screen contractors and then to make sure the job was executed well. Thanks to the internet this is more possible than years ago. In most states, I believe no license is required to install heating systems, save for the plumbing aspects that pertain to certain codes. All the things we see debated and discussed so passionately and expertly here on the wall are not what's going on nearly enough at street level. Which is probably why Dan started this site.

David

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Bob Forand

David

David, great post. Your scenario is just what I couldn't explain. However, with all of that being said, not every customer will burn you. I believe that this is how reputations are built. Even if you don't get a call back from that particular person, he/she will probably repeat your name in a future conversation. If you can get enough people talking about how you delivered your quote, how you made the customer feel more informed, then you will get your lions share. If anything the customer who calls for you will already know you aren't the cheapest guy in town. I once read somewhere that if you want to know where the best hunting grounds are, just listen closely at the coffee shop. The same goes with the trade, if you want your name tossed around at the coffee shop as the go to guy, then you must look past some of the losses, and continue to deliver the best quotes, and continue to give top notch quality work.IMHO..

Ted_9

Details

Boone, I agree. That's why I can't give details on just a proposal. I'll end up giving all the info away before I get hired and then the H.O. will hire the cheaper guy.

That's why I now charge for my time. I'm getting paid to do work. Granted, when I tell people we charge for a quote, I get hung up on. Even after I tell them they are getting valuable useful info for their project. It's fine by me, I get to work with people who respect me and what I do.

Massachusetts

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Mark Hunt

Good post David


You make excellent points for both sides of the coin.

The original poster said that he could not understand why boiler A cost so much more than boiler B. The blame for that falls squarely on the shoulders of the person representing boiler A. That person did/does not understand what "selling" is about.

There....I said it.....SELLING. S E L L I N G.

Salesmen typically rank just above "baby killer" in many peoples minds. (Baby killers rank just above lawyers and lawyers just above politicians)

I posted a question YEARS ago on this forum asking how many pros that visit this site ever had formal sales training. (Play cricket sounds) I'm sure some had but they did not respond.(Perhaps afraid of being labeled with a Scarlett letter?)

Sales or selling is not a bad thing. What's that line? "Nothing happens in this world until someone sells something." So whether people like it or not, sales kick start everything.

Here we have "contractor Fred", he "offers" ONLY top of the line equipment, top shelf installations AND unbeatable service. Charges accordingly as he should.

Next to him is "contractor Gus", he SELLS decent equipment, competent installations AND reliable service. Charges accordingly as he should.

Next to him is "contractor Mike", Mike is different. He KNOWS that the only person cheaper than he is EVERY customer he meets. Mike only "uses" the cheapest crap available, the cheapest labor he can find AND will not service anything. None of this is mentioned on his card though. Says 24 hour service........but not in a row.(Stole that from Steven Wright)

Here is where it gets tricky. The customer has never met any of these fellows before. They got the names from the Yellow Pages where they were ALL listed under the same heading....."Heating contractors". In the customers mind, they are ALL EQUAL.(In the beginning at least)

So the customer calls each company for an "estimate" on replacing an old heating system. (Note to customers, NEVER ask for an "estimate", ask for a "QUOTE". (BIG difference!)

Contractor Fred shows up, on time, looking good. Walks through the house and says, "I'll get back to you". He asks a few questions but the customer never feels as though he heard a single thing he/she said. Fred leaves.

Gus shows up, on time, looking good. Walks through, measures things, asks LOTS of questions and answers just as many. He points out some existing issues that should be addressed along with the boiler replacement. Hands the customer some literature to look at while he does his calculations and promises to make a return visit to go over his PROPOSAL. Gus leaves.

Here comes Mike. Mike has a Kool truck with his company logo emblazoned in lime-green fire lettering down the sides of his monster truck. More lights on top than Yankee stadium. Guns-n-Roses crankin' "Paradise City" blaring from the CD player as Mike whips into the driveway, and Mike Kooly flicks his cigarette on to the customers lawn. Mike's Kool. Mike is 15 minutes late, but he explains to the customer that it is because a "stoopid school bus" slowed him down. "I woulda' been even later if I didn't pass the stoopid ^!^%!@%#!". What a guy Mike is! Mike walks into the house and directly to the basement. The customer follows. First question Mike asks is, "So....what do you do for a living?". The customer starts to answer, but just then the bus with his/her kids arrives. The customer goes to see the kids off the bus. Customer is back with Mike and asks Mike a few things that Gus told/taught him. Mike says, "Ahhhh! You don't need any of that high tech stuff! The guys selling that stuff are crooks". "I'm gonna' save you A LOT of money" says Mike as he hands the customer a "CONTRACT" right there on the spot. $xxxx.00 for a complete boiler change out. "Whaddaya' say?" asks Mike.

Now I know this is a long post, but it is actually a condensed version of the real thing. We could add a gazillion variables here.....customer does Internet research, customer asks for references and ACTUALLY CALLS THEM, Mike asks customers daughter out on a date...etc....

Point is, I laid out the contractors. The customer is going to get prices from all of them.(Mike's number is in the middle) Who would YOU hire and WHY?

Now let's screw this up even more! All of the contractors recommend the same piece of equipment. Now who wins?

I was awarded a job recently after I was told that my price was too high. Another contractor would do "the job" for a few thousand dollars less than me. A FEW, not one or two, A FEW! I replied, "My number is not too high, their number is too low". That happens too folks! More often than you think! Sooner or later those drunks sober up and they will abandon your project.

So you see, it is a struggle from both sides. Customers don't know who to trust and neither do contractors. You want me to be "detailed"....pay me. Otherwise, how do I know that my hard work, time and knowledge aren't about to be shopped out? A design? I was asked for an "estimate", not a design. I'll give you an "estimate" over the phone for free. A design costs money. A "quote"? Ok. A quote is not a design. Designs cost money. This is how engineers make a living. They design things. They charge LOTS of money for a design, as they should. In the residential heating/cooling/plumbing world, PHVAC contractors are supposed to hand designs out like candy along with advice for free. (The residential PHVAC industry created this monster BTW and 99% of them continue to perform CPR on this corpse-in-waiting)

There are contractors all over this country that LOVE what they do. They study, read, attend schools and seminars, they spend their personal money for books, tapes and DVD's so they can be better at what they love to do. That can not be written down in an estimate, quote or proposal. It is not reflected in equipment choice.

It is "their" job to show the difference, it is the consumers job to recognize and acknowledge it.

Mark H



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Cary Alon

Homeowners wasting your time...

I acknowledge that there are (and always will be) homeowners who waste your time, want everything for free.

There are contractors who wasted my time, too. I waited for them to show up, spent my time going through the parameters of the job, and then they disappeared, no proposal, no return calls, etc.

In my business, that wasted time with my clients is the only way for me to get business. It's a cost of doing business. There is no way to know up front who will buy, and why. Getting good at sales, and doing it often, increases your close ratio, and perhaps, allows you to make educated guesses as to who to spend more time on and who to back off on.

Maybe Ted is right, and charging for a proposal/design is the way to go. I know that for me, with no prior relationship with Ted, that would have been an issue for me, depending on the cost of it. I don't know him, and I believe that it's his job to differentiate himself from the run-of-the-mill HVAC contractor.

Will the run-of-the-mill guy really be able to take your proposal, Ted, and duplicate it? Will he know what he's doing?

Anyway, I am not challenging your right to make a living, or to choose how you run your business. I was just trying to give you guys a sense, from a homeowners view, of some of the frustrations that I encountered in my quest to replace/upgrade my system, and the lack of clarity that exists, from my perspective.

Happy Holidays to all!

Cary

Cary Alon

Homeowners wasting your time...

I acknowledge that there are (and always will be) homeowners who waste your time, want everything for free.

There are contractors who wasted my time, too. I waited for them to show up, spent my time going through the parameters of the job, and then they disappeared, no proposal, no return calls, etc.

In my business, that wasted time with my clients is the only way for me to get business. It's a cost of doing business. There is no way to know up front who will buy, and why. Getting good at sales, and doing it often, increases my close ratio, and perhaps, allows me to make educated guesses as to who to spend more time on and who to back off on.

Maybe Ted is right, and charging for a proposal/design is the way to go. I know that for me, with no prior relationship with Ted, that would have been an issue, depending on the cost of it. Maybe if the cost of doing the design is credited toward the job if I buy, that would work.

I don't know him, but I believe that it's his job to differentiate himself from the run-of-the-mill HVAC contractor. That's part of sales, part of running a business.

Will the run-of-the-mill guy really be able to take your proposal, Ted, and duplicate it? Will he know what he's doing?

Anyway, I am not challenging your right to make a living, or to choose how you run your business. I was just trying to give you guys a sense, from a homeowners view, of some of the frustrations that I encountered in my quest to replace/upgrade my system, and the lack of clarity that exists, again, from my perspective.

Happy Holidays to all!

Cary

Unknown

After reading,

all these posts,(even the long-winded ones), I see what Joey B and contractors are talking about. Being a heating contractor myself, this can be a difficult issue if we allow-it, perhaps all of us can be a little more "flexible" in the information department?,,,,,,,,after all,,,,this site is informative to all, right?

Dave

[Deleted User]

You scared them off...

I always appreciate a HO who has done his due dilligence and homework. And as a part of my job, I MUST spend the time to educate.

You probally knew more about what you were doing then most of the contractors who showed up, and they knew it and didn't bother to get back to you.

Sad but true...

ME

Ted_9

luck

Cary, I've had good luck with charging so far. Those that say no to a small charge are just wasting time. Someone who is serious will pay me for my time.

I used to do home shows and go though lots of appointments. Maybe I'm not a "closer" but that approach just didn't sit well with me.

Massachusetts

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Perry_3

I really relate with all the other Homeowners...

Finding a contractor - getting information - understanding differences is almost flat out impossible.

I am not really sure what contractors think a professional contractor is. I can tell you that I did not find a single one in the heating business who even comes close to my definition of what a professional contractor should be.

Many of Cary's comments ring true. I spend 1/3 to 1/2 million a year on contractor services per year at work. I used to work for a field service contractor in my industry. No way could any of these contractors stay in business if they conducted themselves the way home heating contractors conduct themselves.

While I paid someowne to install my system (at T & M), and they are the company with the best reputation in the area - I would never even begine to consider them as a "professional contractor."

All of my fellow wallies who try to make the point that "this is a custom system - that are designed and installed to match your house" are missing the point. A lot of things in the world are "custom systems that are designed and installed to match the application;" yet, a lot more information is presented in an organized fashion in other industries as part of any proposal.

While their are some people who will always buy low cost... There are more people who are willing to pay for good value if someone could explain what they are offereing and why it is a good value over other proposals that a person gets from other vendors.

Perry

Cary Alon

Charging

Ted, if your charge is small, then that is a good way to winnow out the time wasters. Do you credit it to the job when the full job is bought?

Dave_4

@David Broome

My dad was an attorney (apparently ranks below baby-killer.. don't worry, I'm used to the jokes). Many times he had people of modest means in his office for an hour picking his brain about whatever problem pro bono. Did a lot of closings for first-time homeowners that cost him money.

My point- taking time out to help a stranger for 30 minutes at your own expense doesn't make you a good salesman, it makes you a good person. There aren't enough of you or my dad out there.

You may not earn a dollar for your service, but you do earn respect. If you have children I'm sure they respect you as much as I respect my dad. And to him, that's worth more than any amount of money.

Keep on doing what you're doing.

Tim

Bob Forand

Perry

Perry, read Mark Hunt's post. That is a professional. You ask what makes a contractor a professional. It is in the last few lines of Mark's post. There are contractors out there that have invested many,many hours off the clock, away from family and friends, often missing very important parts of their lives, just to learn the products of their trades. A professional visits the homeowner, often after dinner, spending a lot of quality time, telling the homeowner why they should be chosen for the job, only to lose the job to the non-professional. I do believe that there are more professional tradesmen today than yesterday. That is in part due to the educated consumer. The days of saying "dont worry about it the system will work" is over. Those contractors that do that today had better find the way to become more educated about their trade and become the "professional" that Mark Hunt is. There are guys such as myself that come to this site to learn from professionals so that we can all be better in our trade. Please don't cut these men short, they have paid there dues to be considered professionals.

Perry_3

Bob

I am glad you are here learning how to be a better contractor. I also agree that Mark Hunt wrote an excellent post on part of what it takes to be considered a professional.

I would like to point out that many other fields have people who give up a lot of free time and family activities to learn more and become more effective in their field and in spending time with the customer and potential customers. That is far from unique with the heating business; but it is a requirment in all fields of work to really rise to the top.

I also will agree that the very few contractors who participate on the Wall are probably the cream of the crop. Unfortunately - there are only a few of them (perhaps a dozen or so); which does not directly help most people in the US.

It is also true that the "find a professional" section of this site does not limit itself to true professionals. My understanding is that it is nothing more than an advertising link - and you don't really know who you are getting. Not that it mattered in my case because there was not a single contractor listed for my state.

Approximately half of the US population lives in a larger metropolitan areas. And half does not. While their may be people (at least a few) in each larger metropolitan area that really are professionals it seems to me that there are a lot less out in the boonies or semi-boonies(where I live: 25 mile radius is probably 75,000 people, 50 mile radius is probably 250,000 because you pick up some modest size cities at about 1 hour driving time away). I assure you - the Wall - is a stranger to most of the heating contractors in a 1 hour driving range.

Now I will admit that one Wallie probably lives about 100 miles from here (or less - perhaps only 50 miles). Unfortunately 40 miles of that is open water and it takes a very long day to drive arround lake Michagan - or much of the day to take the ferry when it is running (summer). And he was too busy to come and help.

In the end it is great that a few people in the heating trades are learning that they need to do the things in Mark Hunts post. I am not cutting them off short. I just don't know of a single one in a 1 hour driving range of where I live - and even the Viessmann rep could not find one in the Milwaukee area (1.5 hours away) who meets my criteria (and Mark Hunts criteria). Much less someone who understood mod/con boilers and who would willingly install a Vitodens.

What is equally surprising is that if I have a $10,000 job at the plant that I am bidding - that a range of contractors show up who act professional in my book to bid the job. Then it is my job to sort out which offer best meets the plants and my needs (and yes, at times there can be a lot of differences in those offers).

A $10,000+ boiler replacement job - and I get amature hour from a number of home heating contractors - and I can't find a single one who acts as a professional in my book. If I had - they would have instantly had the job.

Thus, I stand on my statement on how difficult it is to find a professional - and how those people would not survive in a commercial and industrial environment.

I certainly hope that you are correct in that things are improving and more home heating contractors are moving towards being real professionals. Keep in mind that I judge professionism by comparing how other industries work - and not just how the home heating industry works. I suspect that a lot of other people do as well as they work for companies that must professionally estimate, and quote work; or for companies that are getting jobs bid and buying equipment and services.

Perry