System 2000 Price Questions

Robert O'Brien

Bill. I can see how a HO can think it's like buying a refrigerator though. Who tells them it's not?

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Joe Roth

Wish I found this forum a month ago. Last month I had a boiler installed and during the estimate phase. I had more question but had no one unbiased to ask. I really wanted the System 2000 but because I was getting prices close to $7000. I couldn't see why it cost so much and ended up with a Biasi. My questions are. Why is the System 2000 unit so much money? Is the cost of the unit that much higher then say a Buderus equivalent and just to note. The Buderus with the Logomatic came in $700.00 cheaper. From my understanding, there is less labor involved and I’m not sure the savings was being given back to the customer. Isn't a steel boiler cheaper to make then a cast iron boiler? Is the higher price related to the efficiency of the boiler, thinking the customer will be saving money in oil so we can charge more for the units? Is $7000 the going rate everywhere or is it because I live in an area that only has a handful of System 2000 installers?

Joey

Dan Goodridge_2

system 2000

Not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish with your post. You HAVE a new boiler. Forget the buyer's remorse- Get on with your life and hug your kids.

Robert O'Brien

I

install all three,Biasi,Buderus and EK. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, you will get fine service from a Biasi. Put a Tekmar ODR on it and your oil consumption will be the same as a Buderus w/ Logamatic.

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Joe Roth

I’m hoping to help other homeowners that run into the same predicament when it comes to boiler prices which I found myself in when trying to pick a boiler. I found it hard to get a straight answer from the guys who are trying to get my business. They don't like to breakdown there estimates for equipment and Labor. I have found price difference from one guy to the next as much as $800.00 for the same equipment. I'm just a homeowner with very little knowledge in the field of boiler installation and though I found a place where I could ask some questions reqarding pricing that I am very curious about and which confuses me to this day. I didn't think I had to be a potential customer to ask questions here. Sorry I offended you.

Joey

Bob Forand

Dan, I couldnt

I couldn't agree more, hug your kids, that's more important.

Robert O'Brien

I

install all 3 as well as a few others and that Biasi will give you very good service.
Very reliable and hard to beat for the price. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

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Bob Forand

Joey

Joey, no offense taken by, me anyways. I think of a boiler purchase as a very important decision. But with that being said, every boiler manufacturer makes a boiler to last. Yes, there are features and benefits (depending on what you need) that make some stand out more that others. You shouldn't look at the nameplate on the boiler as much as you should look at the name on the side of the van. Does your installer believe in the product he is installing ? Has he installed many successfully ? The point is you should research your installer first, and have that be a large part of your decision.

[Deleted User]

BRAVO!!!

Don't buy the "boiler", buy the installing contractor who is going to be backing it up for the next 30 years, and make sure you're happy with HIM, because if not, it doesn't matter WHO's boiler you have, you will not be a happy camper, to say nothing of comfort.

The reason most contractors don't want to give a price break down is because the consumer will then start comparing labor rates and questioning business ethics. Most contractors don't really know how much they are supposed to be charging (excludes most participants of The Wall) and consequently are charging what they feel the market will bear. When I run up against these people, my bid is typically 2 times as much as theirs. If the consumer asks me to lower my price to meet the other guys price, I ask them what they want me to take out of my bid to meet the other guys prices... Boiler? pipes? controls? Labor? The other guy is doing the work for less than it costs me to put the whole program together. Why should I work for ANYONE for FREE?

No two contractors have the exact same overhead requirements, hence no two contractors charge the same as each other, hence pricing discrepencies. Which leads to the reason we don't discuss pricing openly here at The Wall. Too many different points of view and operating costs.

If you are happy with the contractor, his service and performance, the brand of boiler really does not matter.

FWIW, some boilers come with a lot more features than others, hence product picing differential. As a consumer, all you see is heat in a box. Cost of producing a steel boiler versus a cast iron boiler are insignificant at the core. Taking that core and putting it into a wrapper with all the bells and whistles is where the price goes up.

Did you want fries with that burger???

ME

Joe Roth

I understand about business and overhead as I have a business myself but in my business it’s very easy for my customers to know they are getting a good product and service for a fair price, unlike the boiler industry. I tried to found information in my spare time regarding Boiler prices but didn't find much on the internet and if I did find this forum prior to my purchase. It doesn't look like my questions would have been answered anyway. I felt exactly as you stated about the experience. The contactors trying to see what the customer is willing to spend but the problem for the consumer is there is no way to check to see if you are paying a fair price. Consumers just want to know they aren't being taken for a ride. No one is looking to pay a higher price then they have to. I'm the first guy to say everyone has to make a living and pay bills but the same statement goes for the consumer.

If I was going out and buying a new car, there is a lot of research I can do to make an informed decision on my purchase. Make, model, quality of service at the dealership for warranty work and a fair price to pay for the vehicle. It’s all on the internet. You wouldn't go to the dealership and ask these questions. Of course they would say they are the cheapest and have the best vehicles and service.

I found very little help in my new boiler endeavor and the only people I had to ask my question to were the gentlemen (dealership, if you may) that came to the door to quote me prices. Also, not one did a heat loss calc for my home as I see you guys state should be done for every installation. I was not aware of this.

That is why I was very happy to find this forum. I though, finally I could get some real answers from guys not just trying to sell me there products and services and maybe help other consumers have some information I didn't have to make an informed decision on there next boiler purchase.

Joey

Joe Roth

I understand about business and overhead as I have a business myself but in my business it’s very easy for my customers to know they are getting a good product and service for a fair price, unlike what I have found in the boiler industry. I tried to find information in my spare time regarding Boiler prices but didn't find much on the internet and if I did find this forum prior to my purchase. It doesn't look like my questions would have been answered anyway. I felt exactly as you mentioned about the experience. The contactors trying to see what the customer is willing to spend, or as you stated the market will bear, but the problem for the consumer is there is no way to check to see if you are paying a fair price. Consumers just want to know they aren't being taken for a ride. No one is looking to pay a higher price then they have to. I'm the first guy to say everyone has to make a living and pay bills but the same statement goes for the consumer.

If I was going out and buying a new car, there is a lot of RESEARCH I can do to make an informed decision on my purchase. Make, model, quality of service at the dealership for warranty work and a fair price to pay for the vehicle. It’s all on the internet. You wouldn't go to the dealership and ask these questions. Of course they would say they are the cheapest and have the best vehicles and service.

I found very little help in my new boiler endeavor and the only people I had to ask my question to were the gentlemen (dealership, if you may) that came to the door to quote me prices. Also, not one did a heat loss calc for my home as I see some of you guys state should be done for every installation. I was not aware of this.

That is why I was very happy to find this forum. I though, finally I could get some real answers from guys not just trying to sell me there products and services and maybe help other consumers have some information I didn't have to make an informed decision on there next boiler purchase.

Joey

Ted_9

OK

OK, Joey, let me say this. MY price would have been more. But you would get the heat loss done, and the best parts and materials. No short cuts here. Personal service etc. etc. Your not just buying a boiler like you buy a car. Think of it as a custom job. Not stamped out at the factory. Every house is different and every installer is different.

But, the other competitors don't do what I do. I ask and I check. Apples to apples? It's more like I provide Pineapples and they provide crab apples.

In the end friend, it sounds like you got a good boiler, good install at a good price.


Massachusetts

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schiller

here is what you are missing, the heating system is a custom product. not a box to be unwraped and pluged in. if you needed a doctor for a life saving operation, would you be so concerned about price or if you wanted a family panting would you hire the low bidder. most any contractor can hook it to the pipes and collect the check but some of us deliver a level of artistry and craftsmanship that is world class and will pay back the "extra cost" w/ long life, lower operating costs and lower maintance costs. our up front cost is a bit higher, but we pay our installer a fair wage that allows them to have a good life maybe even buying a boat or a new car (thats good for the economy).we all win you get a positive return on your investment, we can afford to run our busness the right way. Oh, I forgot to mention service, its not cheap to run service 24/7 and the cost can hardly be justified w/ the $ generated by the late night call. But its the right thing to for your customers and your community.

just my 2 cents
T

Long Beach Ed

System 2000 Prices

You specifically asked about System 2000 prices. I recently embarked on an adventure of qualifying to sell and install these things, and I too had the same question.

By the way, I agree with others, that we would have charged more than $7000 for an installed System 2000. The absence of a heat loss calculation probably explains part of the lower price. Much of the efficency you sought to gain is lost if the boiler is oversized. You also pay more for a larger device you don't need.

While the boiler is steel, it is quite uniquely designed and made. A visit to the factory finds an amaising amount of individual hand labor employed. It is also quite a complex assembly. While compared with the costs of operating a foundry, we're looking at apples and oranges. I can honestly say that the System 2000 is not at all your typical steel boiler and shouldn't be compared in price to one.

As was posted here, you got an excellent system. Hopefully you made your choice on more than just the dollar difference. All these systems have their benefits and drawbacks.

And yes, none of it matters much if the installation is done by a hack. An qualified professional would have carefully outlined the benefitsof each system he offered and would have made certain you understood them.

Long Beach Ed

Dave_4

Right

Good post Schiller. A boiler is not a car or refrigerator.It is just a component of a hand assembled system in your basement.

John L

Take the

price out of the equation for a minute(i'm not disregarding or mininising it , simply putting it aside for a mo) and ask yourself 2 questions. 1. Why did I choose the contractor I did?, and 2.Do I feel that I received fair value and service for the equipment, materials and workmanship supplied? As a favour, give yourself as long to answer this as it took to get the estimates in the first place- this is just being fair to the contractor.
Now when you review the whole experience, you will probably find that you recevied fair value for your $$$.
Invariably, when "more $$$" are charged, more service is provided, and strange as it may seem, some of us contractors don't often mention this to the HO at the time, and this is something that we all do,doing that little bit extra, just check some of the posts here from time to time. That is the extra mile you hear about.
Enjoy the experience and your new system.

John L.

Joe Grosso

Joey B a couple of questions ?

You said you have a business.Do you break down what ever you sell by parts price, labor and profit margin I do not think so.I deal with this bs all the time from my customers.I explain to them I have a calculated everything to come up with the price that I give them.Do you ask the gas station every time you get gas how they come up with their price or better yet BEST BUY for their figures for the new palsma tv.I do not think so.Everyone is so worried about the price of everything and not looking at the quality of what they are buying or having installed in their home.just my two cents

Joe Roth

To answer Joe Grosso's question. Yes I do break my price into parts and labor. Maybe I should have gone into the boiler business. How does Gas and Plasma TV’s come into this?? I don't see it. How about car repair or say you needed a new motor in your work van. They give you a price with parts and labor and have to display there labor rates for the customers to see and there are books with how many labor hours a particular repair can be charged to the customer. There is information out there for the customer if they want it. Who regulates your industry? Where can I go to get an unbiased opinion? I have found I can't get it here. Where can I go and get independent studies on equipment reliability and efficiency. In My opinion, your industry is behind the times in a lot of ways and maybe it's a good thing for you guys or maybe it's not but I can tell you that it’s very bad for the customer.

Joe Roth

I wasn't trying to compare the two industries. Just trying to show the lack of information available to the customer in your industry compared to the car industry.

Joe Roth

Answers to your questions from one homeowner.

1. Price. You get to meet the installer for 1/2 hour to an hour. What can you really learn about a guy in this time? You all do the best job and use the best parts. You all sound the same. No offense. Some guys have a better personality then others but that doesn't equal better workmanship.

2. I can't tell a bad installation from a good one. So far, no leaks and my heat and hot water are working so I guess good workmanship. Not sure if I got a fair value. No way to check.

Homeowners shut the boiler room door and the only thing we know is if we have hot water and if it’s cold out. The heat is coming from the baseboard and hope we don't have a problem with the unit. Also, higher price doesn't always mean a better job with more services provided and no problems.

Like I stated in my first post, I wish I would have found this forum before I purchase my new boiler. I may have done things different. I never knew about a heat loss calc until I started reading this form. I found I couldn't rely on the guys that came to the door.

Thank to the person or people running this forum. It’s a step in the right direction. Don't agree totally with the pricing ban. Maybe you can have a section for homeowners.

[Deleted User]

Sounds like a case of buyers remorse...

Also sounds like you already did due dilligence to some degree. For other homowners reading this, after you've met with the contractors, ask for refereces, and call those references and ask them if its OK to come by and look at the completed operations.

Ask lots of questions, like were they on time, were they neat and clean, were they friendly, did they explain the whole operation to you, have you had any problems since it was installed, how did they react to those problems.

Heck, you can even ask THEM about prices, but not on a national forum. Have you ever heard the term PRICE FIXING tossed around? Well that is the LAST thing we need to be accused of in this industry... Hence, the preference for NOT discussing prices openly. To be real honest with you, it sounds like you got a SCREAMING deal. My installed price probably would have been at least half again as much as you paid.

Merry Christmas

Now, go hug your kids and be greatful for your comfort. And trust me on this, if you have future "issues". you can feel free to come back here and ask questions again without remorse.

ME

Leo

You don't agree with the pricing ban

The pricing ban has to be in effect in a forum that is read in all parts of the country. I am using bogus numbers for example only but think of this. Various parts of the country may pay their people $10 per hour where another part may pay $20 per hour where yet another pays $30 per hour. Around here an old house averages $200 thousand where new ones are upwards of 300-400 thousand. Our pays reflect this. So, how do you honestly negotiate with a guy who because of the market pays his people $30 per hour when you are getting advice from the guy in an area of $10 per hour. It won't work. Workmanship on the other hand is or should be standard everywhere. As far as pricing automobiles, do you really think this $100 over invoice is accurate? The dealer is making more than that, it isw just hidden somehow. Lastly as a customer would you want to tell the contracter I make xxx per year so based on that could you set me up with a system?

Leo

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Joe Grosso

lets see how plasma tv got into this.I used a plasma tv just to show you what I mean.When you go to a electronics store the price is not broken down for you is it.You can not get this breakdown and they say hey your profit is to high I will give you this much for the tv.This what I am trying to say.Second and not trying to kill you but are you kidding me you sell cars.Like some of the guys here have stated you make more the this x dollars over invoice bs.Your have to to stay in business.I do not do this bs when I buy a truck.Give me your price and I will make my own decision.But I have to come to you not like when you buy a boiler we come to you take a couple hours of our time to do a heat loss and figure out the proper system for you and hope you give us the job without hearing this other company will do it this much cheaper without knowing if you are comparing apples to apples.Did anyone charge you a fee to do a estimate for you they should have.Think about it and please have a merry christmas

Techman

Joey H.O.

First ,Happy Holiday's to you and your warm Family.What line of work are you in? My lawyer is my LAWYER,I trust him and pay his bill! My work truck gets repaired by the local GMC dealership at $110.00 per hour,parts extra! My Dodge goes to the local Dodge dealer at $99.oo per hour ,parts extra!If you wanted a bidding war ,then you should have started one .I for one, DO NOT bid against other contractors! I bid the JOB! You want cheap ? Go get cheap!When you do get the low ball job and your mechanic can't or woun't fix it ,give me a call!We will talk proper repair, NOT price!Each job is an individual job!You DID get a very good price,be HAPPY !Two local bakeries charge two differant prices for the same size of bread,I buy the more expensive bread because it taste's better!Happy Holiday!

Mark Hunt

Joey


I am going to ask you two questions.

How much money should a heating contractor charge?

How much money should a heating contractor make?

Mark H

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D107

Yes, many homeowners don't understand their systems

HO here who's followed the wall for about a year. I understand where you're coming from. I think it's less about price than simply getting enough information to make a decision. And as popular as the Wall and a few other sites are within the industry, the average consumer might not have the interest to embark on the required learning curve. Even you found the wall too late.

While cars are certainly complex, owners have a much more direct 'relationship' with them and most of us can glean a general knowledge of some of the parts under the hood from years of talking with the mechanics where we bring it in for service and inspections a few times a year. Heating systems on the other hand, be they steam, forced air or hot water are a big mystery to most of us. Hot water systems have so many components and must be put together in a special way that not all plumbers and heat techs out there adhere to. Which is why many wallies have embraced the idea of there being some kind of licensing requirement (as for plumbing) for heating installers and techs. So if that's partially what you meant by regulation, that might be a good idea.

Keep in mind on the wall you're dealing with the upper 2% of dedicated, skilled installers for whom hydronics is an art and a never-ending learning curve. They are as angered as anyone when they come upon dangerously bad installations that either squander energy dollars or risk the homeowners' lives.

I believe one antidote to this would be for someone, Dan, Brad, etc to come out with a very consumer friendly heating guide that would actually be on the shelves at Borders and Barnes and Noble. I don't believe I've seen any out there dedicated to heating systems in a meaningful way. (Of course I heartily recommend (and buy) Dan Holohan's books but they may be considered too technical by the chain bookstores. In this book I'm proposing there would be a 30 step guide to hiring a boiler installer and a contract template that would cover all the major components of a system, with photos and labels and brief descriptions just to give the consumer a good overview. So if a heating contractor comes in and says he'll install the circulators on the return, the homeowner can ask him why he's not pumping away from the expansion tank. And having read many hilarious wall posts, this book could be really entertainingly funny as well.

If you're not sure what you got, you can post photos of your system and get some feedback. In my area (NY) the price you mentioned for the boiler you got --even without an indirect HW heater and major repiping--would be a very fair one. If a homeowner gets three apples to apples prices from reputable contractors, that should be a good guide to a fair price.

good luck,

David

Robert O'Brien

A picture(or 2) is worth how many words?

Both of these boilers wholesale for about the same price. Are they the same? Which would you rather have?Who got the better Value even though they paid much more?(I hope)
The artwork is by Jack Ragusa,the other is unknown(with good reason) The choice wasn't between an MPO and a Vitorond,the choice is between a craftsman and a hack.Jack would have made the same masterpiece of the MPO and the other guy would have hacked up the Vitorond!
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Dave_4

Here is the answer..........

I can sum up this entire problem with one statement.Every homeowner should make an effort to find a heating company they like and do regular maintenance. Then, if your unit goes south, you would basically follow the recommdation of your heating company,who you trust anyway at that point.
If you are one who only does something when it breaks down and then goes yellow page shopping for the first one who can come out, well, you are on your own. Good luck.

Joe Roth

Like I have stated from the beginning, the biggest complaint I have is the lack of information available to the homeowners. Some homeowners don't care to educate themselves on the purchase of a new boiler but for the homeowners who do. There is very little information on what we should know and what to ask prior to calling a company to get estimates. I think, because the thread stated pricing. You guys think I'm hung up on your profit margins but that’s not the truth. I've stated many times here, I have no problem paying fair value but when you are getting estimates that are hundreds of dollars difference and they're saying there using the same equipment and doing the same job. It’s very hard to make an informed decision. In my case, I found no one unbiased to turn to. You find yourself in a nightmare situation having to make a very important decision that you will have to live with for many years.

My initial Post was asking why the system 2000 came in at such a higher price then the other systems which didn't make sense to me, being uneducated in this field. It wasn't an assault on your profit margins as many of you took it. It was specific to one system. Thank you to the people who have posted here trying to explain it to me and saw they were legitimate uneducated questions and not an attack on your profit margins. I think this tread went a little off track then my itial intention.

To clear something up in regard to the car reference. I wasn't trying to compare product and service from the car industry to yours. Just trying to show the lack of information available to the customer in your industry compared to the car industry. I guess it wasn’t clear enough.

Merry christmas and happy holidays to all.

Joey B

Joe Roth

Thank you David Goldman for your post. The book is a good idea and maybe they can add the information to the homeowner's page on this website.

Like I have stated from the beginning, the biggest complaint I have is the lack of information available to the homeowners. Some homeowners don't care to educate themselves on the purchase of a new boiler but for the homeowners who do. There is very little information on what we should know and what to ask prior to calling a company to get estimates. I think, because the thread stated pricing. You guys think I'm hung up on your profit margins but that's not the truth. I've stated many times here, I have no problem paying fair value but when you are getting estimates that are hundreds of dollars difference and they're telling you there using the same equipment and doing the same job. It's very hard to make an informed decision. In my case, I found no one unbiased to turn to. You find yourself in a nightmare situation having to make a very important decision that you will have to live with for many years.

My initial Post was asking why the system 2000 came in at such a higher price then the other systems which didn't make sense to me, being uneducated in this field. It wasn't an assault on your profit margins as many of you took it. It was specific to one system. Thank you to the people who have posted here trying to explain it to me and saw they were legitimate uneducated questions and not an attack on your profit margins. I think this tread went a little off track then my initial intention.

To clear something up in regard to the car reference. I wasn't trying to compare product and service from the car industry to yours. Just trying to show the lack of information available to the customer in your industry compared to the car industry. I guess it wasn't clear enough.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

joel_19

joey b

as a contractor , homeowner , and sometimes writer for varioue trade mags i understand your pain from all sides .

i think what you others have state is accurate in many ways.
You are concerned about reliability and value just like we all are when we buy a product and want some way to research it ahead of time .

Here's the rub it's immpossable. I've seen the very best boilers in the world be extreemly unreliable performance wise because of sloppy installation. That sloppy install would be way cheaper than a good install. Compared to cars this would be like investing in all the parts for a new Toyota Camry and then having it shipped to you in pieces and assembeld at a local garrage . The result and quality would be very different . So would that make the Camry a good or bad car??

As far as breaking down the cost it simply doesn't work. Lets say you get two quotes for the same boiler . Ours comes with say 1800.00$ in extra valve and trim parts that contractor #1 didn't include. Are we too exspensive? or should he have include them.

On the labor end their labor will be lower when they don't offer service ,have no office staff,no training etc. Many folks come to us looking for jobs that we reject. They go to work for our competitors who pay them less than we pay our guys. Consequently our jobs will always cost more.

The only way to compare is to compare the contractors proposal as a whole not in pieces and to compare the quality of that contractor. You can do that by looking for Nate cetified tecs, continuing edu, proper insurance,liscensing, Angies List, BBB,photos of their work, etc.





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Mad Dog_2

Right on Dan...........................

I didn't see any complaints about performance. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Fair enough..................................

That is why our trade needs to become MORE professional and modernize their approach. We have a website up and running for the last 3 years, and I am in the process of upgrading it with new pictures, and more testimonials. It will be even more informative and answer the FAQs. When we bid on a job, we say: "don't take our word for it....check out our website where you can see pictures of our work and what clients think about us. It has set us apart. Mad Dog

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Cary Alon

My 2 cents as a homeowner

I know that this may not be taken the right way, but I (earlier this fall) had to replace my heating and AC system. The furnace was broken, parts not available, and needed replacement. My old FA system had many shortcomings, and I was willing (and wanted to) upgrade.

My experience roughly paralleled that of Joey B. I had a number of HVAC contractors come out to bid a new system. Some were recommendations of friends, some were from "Find a Contractor" here. I had done some research beforehand, but as Joey B. stated, unbiased opinions are hard to come by.

I did my own heat loss, and drew schematics of both floors with all measurements (windows, ceiling heights, insulation, doors, skylights, etc.) and gave copies of both to each contractor.

I tried to discuss various options and the virtue/value of each.

I told each contractor that I am a value buyer. I don't want the cheapest, or the most expensive - I want the best value - a good job, done well, that will work well, at a fair price (fair to both parties).

Here's what I found -

I got prices that ranged from $9,000 to $27,000.

I got only one guy who would admit to doing a heat loss of his own (confirming mine). Everyone else told me they knew what I needed based on square footage, or experience, or some other rule of thumb. Most of them told me my heat loss was way undersized. None of those guys did one to check.

More than half who never came back (including 3 from here), even with me calling multiple times.

The ones who did respond all had different systems, with not much information beyond "Install new boiler, air handlers, etc." No indication of controls, how things would be installed, not much besides size of boiler. When I asked questions about the configurations/controls/etc. I was mostly told "Don't worry about it, it'll work."

All of you guys keep saying don't buy the boiler, buy the contractor. Well, my experience did not give me any warm and fuzzy feelings. I read these posts, and admire the pictures of installs, and maybe if I had found someone who was reponsive and came back and answered my questions, and showed me pictures of their installs, or gave me references (with phone numbers), I could have made a contractor-based decision.

Maybe by asking questions, the guys I talked to felt I would be too hard to deal with, or would expect too much while doing the job. I don't know.

In the absence of that I started searching out more info, finding DIY heating companies on the 'net, and started considering doing it myself.

I ended up going with my brother's guy - Why? He was close to least expensive, did a basic install, called me back, came when he said he would. I ended up with a conventional boiler because that's what he recommended and was comfortable with. I was ready to pay for a modcon.

I think Joey B.'s analogy to an auto engine rebuild/replacement is good. There are book hours per job, hourly rates are posted, seemingly not to the detriment of the mechanics. I don't understand why an hourly labor rate is an anathema to most of you. As long as it supports your business and allows you to make a healthy profit, then great. One of you even quoted hourly rates for the auto dealerships that you bring your trucks to.

I install computer/data networks. Guess what? Each one is custom, can be configured many different ways, and when I do a quote, it is detailed, itemized, and has cost breakdowns for hardware, software, professional services (design, install, maintenance). That's what my customers expect, and if I told them "Don't worry about it," I wouldn't get much business.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Reading this really hit a nerve due to my recent experience. It's very frustrating trying to be an educated consumer in this market space.

Thanks to those of you who have responded to my questions in the past, and I really do enjoy reading this forum.

I do want to install some more advanced controls on my boiler, and elook forward to learning here.

Cary

Techman

Cary&Joey b

Holiday greetings !No DIS in either direction,O.K.!Cary ,I beleave you went with the "contractor " and not the price.He is a businessman and responded as you liked and now you are starting a very long relationship.Thats what we are talking about here!The information found on this site (Thanks Dan!)is BIASED ,towards QUALITY!!! Pricing is a different ballgame!! If my price to you was $27,000 I would certainly present to you a very beauytiful picture,but if I felt that I was being used ,I would not return any calls!I take pride in being more expensive ,then some,BUT I think I'm worth it!!!And I try to convey that to my customers!

Cary Alon

My 2 cents as a homeowner

Techman,

I appreciate your reply.

In my post, I was trying to give the HVAC contractors on this site a sense of the frustration I felt (and still feel) at the whole process.

I needed a new heating system, right away. I was not kicking tires.

I didn't try to misrepresent my needs to the various contractors. I tried to provide a level playing field to each.

I was willing to spend more for a system whose added value was made apparent to me.

Unfortunately, that was not my experience, and the lack of information available makes it even more frustrating.

By the way, this experience also occured with 2 web sites that are "DIY friendly." I provided each with the same information (drawings and heat loss) and was promised quotes for a complete equipment package.

In both cases, neither provided me with a quote.

Maybe there's just more business than there are contractors...

Cary

Techman

Cary

The original post was entitled "price".The contractor that both of you gentlemen wanted just didn't show up yet! ANY compotent contractor would explain every part of a system and why that part is needed ,to entice his potentialy new customer into his web! BECAUSE I DO KNOW MORE I FEEL I AM WORTH MORE TO YOU!PAY ME WHAT I FEEL IS MY DUE!

Cary Alon

Techman

I came here looking for someone that would be a competent contractor. I got recommendations from friends.

I did not open the Yellow Pages and call everyone.

My experience was not that "ANY component contractor would explain every part of a system and why that part is needed to entice his potentialy new customer into his web!"

I got alot of "I'll make it work, don't worry about the details."

How long should it take for the contractor that I wanted to show up?

I have no problem paying more for for value. I've said that in both my previous posts.

I do ask for you to show me proof of "BECAUSE I DO KNOW MORE I FEEL I AM WORTH MORE TO YOU!PAY ME WHAT I FEEL IS MY DUE!" Not just because you say it. Prove it. I'll pay more for that.

Are you from Long Island, by the way?

Cary Alon

Techman

I came here looking for someone that would be a competent contractor. I got recommendations from friends.

I did not open the Yellow Pages and call everyone.

My experience was not that "ANY component contractor would explain every part of a system and why that part is needed to entice his potentialy new customer into his web!"

I got alot of "I'll make it work, don't worry about the details."

How long should it take for the contractor that I wanted to show up?

I have no problem paying more for for value. I've said that in both my previous posts.

I do ask for you to show me proof of "BECAUSE I DO KNOW MORE I FEEL I AM WORTH MORE TO YOU!PAY ME WHAT I FEEL IS MY DUE!" Not just because you say it. Prove it. I'll pay more for that.

Are you from Long Island, by the way?

Techman

HI Cary!

If I was the first and only contractor to explain to you,and show you, ALL of the mechanical/technical stuff involved in your system and the others prices were 5000-8000k and I wanted 10,000k.Would I get the job? So, is a contractor a contractor.?More education,more parts,more dedication,more devotion to my customers is worth $$$$,partly because it costs me more !Yes I am from L.I.
But like I said "the contractor that you want just hasn't shown up yet!"And ,ANY compotent contractor could explain all of those parts to you .If they can't ,they aren't!