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Air Bound Steam Systems

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TLDR:

I know in The Lost Art of Steam Heating Dan says that replacing the traps in a system won't necessarily lead to a significant increase in efficiency. But if the traps are broken, then there's a good chance there is also no venting. And based on the information below, without a vent the air only compresses 12% at 2psig, and it could take more than an hour for the steam to diffuse into the trapped air. How would replacing traps not help with efficiency? I suppose if the system was running with a vent, but bad traps it could still get the air out and heat ok. To be clear I am in not questioning Dan's knowledge or expertise. I only would like to understand a little better because I'm lost right now.

Math Below:

Now if a system has no way to get air out of the system the air must be stuck inside. Now if I model the air as an ideal gas(it's not mixed with the steam yet), we can use PV=nRT to predict the change in volume of the air based on the pressure the steam is putting on it. We can simplify this equation because we are only using one gas(air) and get the following equation: P1*V1*T1=P2*V2*T2.

Based on this equation if we start at 0psig(14.7psia) and finish at 2psig(16.7psig) with constant temp of 70f the volume only decreases by 12%. This means the steam can only get into 12% of the system? How does it heat the building AT ALL? I've seen a couple places that have had zero vent, but it still had some heat. Based on my estimates the air only takes 34btu/lb to raise the temp from 70 to 212. But using Fick's first law of diffusion and calculating using a 6in main that is 30 ft long(I'm being generous), it will take 147 minutes for the air and steam to diffuse. But again that's very generous given this isn't in a large single volume and is in a long piping system with radiators.

So with only 12% of the air compressing and allowing the steam to enter the system and the air and steam not diffusing into each other very quickly, how do systems which have capped off vents heat at all? Even if the boiler is running at full capacity, that power isn't all going into heating, it starting going into compression of the steam, and that doesn't help.

Owner

Steamnowrockford.com

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 20,938

    It's simple. If the trap(s) don't work the system won't work right. How good or how bad depends on the # of bad traps.

    In a commercial job with a condensate tank or boiler feed tank you waste a lot of steam, add a lot of water and potentially rot out the boiler

    Intplm.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Posts: 17,994

    and if they are failed closed or open and where they are in relation to other things.

    i'd have to find the quite that it won't change efficiency because it can have a huge effect on efficiency. if the air can't get out the emitter will never heat no matter how long you wait. if you crank up the pressure you can sometimes compress some of that air and get a little steam in the radiator and get some heat. if it is because the trap is failed closed the radiator will fill with water and you won't even get that little bit of heat for long. as this is happening the t-stat won't satisfy and most of the heat will go up the vent and in to the basement. the boiler will cycle on the vaporstat/pressuretrol because the system can't consume all of the steam it is producing.

    failed closed traps directly prevent radiators from heating. failed open traps prevent other radiators from heating by allowing steam in to the returns. this either closes the vent on the returns and prevents the radiators with good traps from venting, reaches the return on radiators with good traps and closes the trap from the return side and stops it from venting in to the return or the steam itself blocks the flow of air.

    once steam starts condensing the reduction of volume pulls in more steam. the condensing steam is what causes the steam flow in both a vented and non-vented system, the vented system just gets much more surface in contact with the steam. diffusion isn't a significant factor or you would get drips filling with steam and hammering.

    you really just need boyle's law, the volume change of the air due to temp isn't significant.

  • SteamNow
    SteamNow Posts: 78
    edited August 7

    This is the video where it's mentioned that the steam is still giving up heat to the building. So I suppose it is still somewhat efficient as long as the main vent still functions?

    Owner

    Steamnowrockford.com

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Posts: 27,737
    edited August 6

    A radiator with a closed vent (or failed closed trap) has an interesting property: it will produce some heat, and will continue to do so so long as it is supplied with steam. t may not be all that much — as has been noted, it depends somewhat on the steam pressure — but the joker in the pack is condensation, which is, after all, what produces the heat — not the fact that the steam is hot, but that it condenses. As it condenses, the volume changes — drastically! — and more steam is allowed in, and son on.

    Now in a one pipe steam radiator, that's really the end of the story — the condensate just drains out normally. In a two pipe with a failed closed trap is slightly more complex, as the condensate may — or may not — drain, depending on exactly the failure.

    As t efficiency — remember that, as I have said before, it depends entirely on how you define efficiency. The factor to watch out for is where the heat is released by condensation. So long as it is released within the heated envelope of the structure, it may appear in an unwanted location, but it is not lost.

    What does happen in systems which lack venting, and which can affect efficiency (or not — there are other variables) is that, assuming that the pressure controls are even remotely reasonable the boiler will cycle on pressure, even if the math shows the system EDR and the boiler EDR are close — as the unvented parts of the system will be at least partly prevented from heating, and thus will present a lower than expected EDR demand.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Posts: 4,363

    " But if the traps are broken, then there's a good chance there is also no venting. "

    Broken traps and no venting may be two entirely different things, depends on the system and the type of traps. Broken traps may equal too much venting so there is steam where it should not be. The boiler's efficiency would be the same, just no or poor heat where it is wanted and/or maybe too much heat where it is not needed or wanted.

    Efficiency ? Humans being kept warm or is the basement or boiler room.

    Maybe listen to the video a few more times.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • SteamNow
    SteamNow Posts: 78

    I know that he says that heat goes into the return and some of it is radiated there. The systems that I have seen that have failed traps also have failed vents because the water hammer and steam hammer had extended into the return and was damaging the vent. Or the excessive moisture in the air from the steam in the return was depositing material on the vent and causing it to get stuck.

    The one that comes to mind was a building with 40 radiators and five functioning traps, the owner has been replacing the main vent every year, sometimes more than once, and ended up capping them for a while. After we replaced all of the traps and vents beverything started working properly.

    So my experience is that the vent is either gone or is evacuating Steam in scenarios with failed traps.

    Owner

    Steamnowrockford.com