New Stainless Liner
In my 900 sq foot house on Long Island, the ~40 year old Utica OBT-3 has a 6" flue leading to the chimney. The OBT was rated as 131 in and 113 out, with 97 the lowest possible output (I don't know what nozzle is being used).
I'm told that the chimney is very clean but the tile(?) that lines the chimney is shifting a bit and the edges are corroding.
I'm not sure when I'm going to spring for a new EK-1 but I think I should get the liner in while there are no obstructions in the chimney. One person suggested that what works for EK might not work for my OBT and I should wait until the EK goes in.
A few questions: will my OBT work fine into the smaller 5.5" stainless liner that I'm told is standard for the EK-1? Actually I was told either 5 or 5.5 is used for EK, the chimney appears to be ~20 feet tall, I'm not sure how to determine when one would use 5 vs 5.5".
I expect that the chimney liner installer would adapt my OBT to the 5.5 and the EK installer would adapt back to the 5.5: is there a standard distance that the liner should come out from the wall?
Lastly, I hear that you can insulate the liner: is this recommended?
Thanks
Comments
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Usually no need to insulate the liner especially in an interior chimney. If the chimney is exposed on the outside of the house maybe.
Liner is sized by the height of the liner and its diameter and the BTU input. You can look up a chart on line if you know the brand of liner
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Thanks Ed, I'm guessing that my chimney is considered exterior so I'll consider insulation. One installer suggested that insulation would add 60-80% to the price of a liner installation, I'm assuming he's way off.
I spoke to Utica today and as you said, even with my current 6" flue, if the sleeve is rated for the current BTU's I should be fine.
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If you read through some of my many posts here you'll see a pattern. However, aside from getting a level II inspection, the liner must be suitable for the class of service. A corrugated ss liner must be derated 20% plus more for offsets not including one broad radius bend at the base. I recommend a type 316Ti smoothwall ss liner which does not have to be derated and flows much better.
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@charlie123 Just an FYI, this is right out of the EK Frontier install manual in regards to chimney liners.
"The metal chimney liner diameter and length should be as recommended by the metal chimney liner manufacturer. Corrugated metal liners should be at least 5" diameter for EK1 and 6" diameter for EK2."
Joe Szwed
Energy Kinetics0 -
Thanks for that info, Joe.
Thanks Bob, I assume that what I've gotten so far is a level 1 inspection.
I've seen those liners advertised so hopefully readily available.
Since I've had 2 techs here already (from recommended vendors, one used by the big oil companies) and no one has mentioned any of this, I think it's gonna take some time to find someone I'm comfortable with to do this work in my area (central Suffolk County).
Any recommendations would be welcome.
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A listed ss liner does not 'fix' a chimney that cannot meet the minimum requirements of the listing. For instance, every listed liner is tested in a chimney that is constructed with 4" wythe walls. The flue is expected to be intact. If not, 'bad stuff' can escape into the interstitial spaces between the flue tiles and the inner face of the outer wythe wall. If acidic flues gases have escaped into this space, there will be interior deterioration not visible. The liner makes the chimney rated for a zero clearance to combustibles ONLY if you have an intact outer 4" wythe wall so yes, Mike is correct. Thx
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Hopefully it's not as bad as that quote would imply but point made.
A bunch of questions came to my (uninformed) mind:
If my boiler is venting into a stainless liner, is my concern then only structural as opposed to gases entering the home?
I was reading about fixing a cracked flue with a ceramic liner: is this done from the top of the chimney, and would a ceramic liner work with the EK-1 or is stainless still required?
I heard of double-wall stainless liners but I'm guessing that for the EK we're only talking single-wall?
Is it the net output of the boiler what you base the vent sizing on? I'd like to get the smallest nozzle and therefore the lowest output on the EK-1 (.65/ 82,000 I believe): any problems with smaller nozzles clogging?
Can one build a house with an oil burner in the basement and just run a vent up beyond the roof line, without a chimney, perhaps protected for the start of its run? Direct-venting is intended as far as air intake for the EK-1, not sure if bypassing/ modifying/ eliminating the chimney are options for exhaust in my case. Easier said than done I'm guessing.
Thanks
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The liner does not correct structural problems. It's a conduit or container. That's it. Ceramic flue sealants are not recognized by the codes because codes deal with new construction. You may get your local AHJ to accept it but IF the chimney is found to be sound according to a level II inspection, dry, and otherwise suitable. Ceramic liners fail if there is moisture penetration or improperly applied. They are still high mass cold chimneys not suitable for short duty cycles, such as with heating. Their durability against highly acidic condensate remains to be seen. You can take a strip of ss, run it through a machine that corrugates it then rolls it into a spiral clenching the seam as it goes and you have a 0.005 to 0.006" thick liner. You can also take that same strip and run it through a set of rollers that roll it onto a flat tube about 1/2" wide then a single layer 'joint' to the adjoining tubular roll. The rolls are 4ply but the 'seams' or valleys between than are still just single walled. Then you can roll this process to where the tubes overlap each other so you get a 4 ply round liner 0.005x4=0.002" of ss and best of all, the inner surface is smooth. This does not offer the flow restriction of a typical corrugated liner that must be derated 20%, does not hold solid or particulates very well such as creosote or fly as (wood, pellet or oil soot) and if it does it partially cleans itself by continual expansion/ contraction cycles. It also is smooth on the outside so it does not hang up going down the way corrugated liners do. They're slick.
Now, there are cast in place ceramic or refractory liner systems listed to UL 1777 for a 2,100F rating at zero clearance to combustibles. Most use an inflatable rubber bladder form while Ahrens pulls a vibrating bell through a zero-slump mix that then gets a glaze coating. Again, these are high mass liners better suited for continual wood burning.
If you have the room, you could drop a metallic vent or class A chimney. These are, like the liners, low mass so they heat up quickly and maintain a stable draft. They are smooth on the inside so no derating and they flow great without corrugations to collect crude. Even on gas, use type L vent instead of B-vent. The ss liner does not rob heat as bad as the aluminum liner in B-vent so you get and keep a stronger draft with less condensation.
EK equipment is unusual compared to the rest of the market. You do what they say how they say or not at all. Most techs are not trained by EK at their facility to sell, install and service their equipment which is essential. If you don't have a solid EK dealer for support then steer clear. If he's the only EK guy in your service area, think about it if he disappoints you who would you turn to.
All that said, EK is great equipment with great performance. Just do what they say and not what the rest of the industry typically does and it will serve you well.
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Thanks Bob, I'm guessing that I'd be looking into the 316 Ti smoothwall where the 4 tubes overlap, I appreciate the help.
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@charlie123 , FWIW, I have a customer with an EK and he loves it. And the EK folks were very helpful when I first encountered it. I can't over-emphasize following the instructions- a previous "tech" hadn't and the unit sooted up. But it's run fine since we took over.
Baltimore, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@Steamhead Thanks for that, and yes I do intend to purchase from an experienced EK dealer/ installer. I've been told a few times that the installer's familiarity with any given brand is an important consideration, I would think that's even more important when it comes to EK.
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