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New Stainless Liner

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charlie123
charlie123 Posts: 73
edited June 25 in Chimneys & Flues

In my 900 sq foot house on Long Island, the ~40 year old Utica OBT-3 has a 6" flue leading to the chimney. The OBT was rated as 131 in and 113 out, with 97 the lowest possible output (I don't know what nozzle is being used).

I'm told that the chimney is very clean but the tile(?) that lines the chimney is shifting a bit and the edges are corroding.

I'm not sure when I'm going to spring for a new EK-1 but I think I should get the liner in while there are no obstructions in the chimney. One person suggested that what works for EK might not work for my OBT and I should wait until the EK goes in.

A few questions: will my OBT work fine into the smaller 5.5" stainless liner that I'm told is standard for the EK-1? Actually I was told either 5 or 5.5 is used for EK, the chimney appears to be ~20 feet tall, I'm not sure how to determine when one would use 5 vs 5.5".

I expect that the chimney liner installer would adapt my OBT to the 5.5 and the EK installer would adapt back to the 5.5: is there a standard distance that the liner should come out from the wall?

Lastly, I hear that you can insulate the liner: is this recommended?

Thanks

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 20,938

    Usually no need to insulate the liner especially in an interior chimney. If the chimney is exposed on the outside of the house maybe.

    Liner is sized by the height of the liner and its diameter and the BTU input. You can look up a chart on line if you know the brand of liner

  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73

    Thanks Ed, I'm guessing that my chimney is considered exterior so I'll consider insulation. One installer suggested that insulation would add 60-80% to the price of a liner installation, I'm assuming he's way off.

    I spoke to Utica today and as you said, even with my current 6" flue, if the sleeve is rated for the current BTU's I should be fine.

  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Posts: 1,187

    If you read through some of my many posts here you'll see a pattern. However, aside from getting a level II inspection, the liner must be suitable for the class of service. A corrugated ss liner must be derated 20% plus more for offsets not including one broad radius bend at the base. I recommend a type 316Ti smoothwall ss liner which does not have to be derated and flows much better.

    HydronicMikeGGrossPC7060
  • szwedj
    szwedj Posts: 85

    @charlie123 Just an FYI, this is right out of the EK Frontier install manual in regards to chimney liners.

    "The metal chimney liner diameter and length should be as recommended by the metal chimney liner manufacturer. Corrugated metal liners should be at least 5" diameter for EK1 and 6" diameter for EK2."

    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited June 27

    Thanks for that info, Joe.

    Thanks Bob, I assume that what I've gotten so far is a level 1 inspection.

    I've seen those liners advertised so hopefully readily available.

    Since I've had 2 techs here already (from recommended vendors, one used by the big oil companies) and no one has mentioned any of this, I think it's gonna take some time to find someone I'm comfortable with to do this work in my area (central Suffolk County).

    Any recommendations would be welcome.

  • HydronicMike
    HydronicMike Posts: 429

    "…but the tile(?) that lines the chimney is shifting a bit and the edges are corroding…"
    If you have a masonry chimney that's starting to come apart, a regular liner isn't going to fix that.

    Bob Harper
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Posts: 1,187

    A listed ss liner does not 'fix' a chimney that cannot meet the minimum requirements of the listing. For instance, every listed liner is tested in a chimney that is constructed with 4" wythe walls. The flue is expected to be intact. If not, 'bad stuff' can escape into the interstitial spaces between the flue tiles and the inner face of the outer wythe wall. If acidic flues gases have escaped into this space, there will be interior deterioration not visible. The liner makes the chimney rated for a zero clearance to combustibles ONLY if you have an intact outer 4" wythe wall so yes, Mike is correct. Thx

    HydronicMike
  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited June 26

    Hopefully it's not as bad as that quote would imply but point made.

    A bunch of questions came to my (uninformed) mind:

    If my boiler is venting into a stainless liner, is my concern then only structural as opposed to gases entering the home?

    I was reading about fixing a cracked flue with a ceramic liner: is this done from the top of the chimney, and would a ceramic liner work with the EK-1 or is stainless still required?

    I heard of double-wall stainless liners but I'm guessing that for the EK we're only talking single-wall?

    Is it the net output of the boiler what you base the vent sizing on? I'd like to get the smallest nozzle and therefore the lowest output on the EK-1 (.65/ 82,000 I believe): any problems with smaller nozzles clogging?

    Can one build a house with an oil burner in the basement and just run a vent up beyond the roof line, without a chimney, perhaps protected for the start of its run? Direct-venting is intended as far as air intake for the EK-1, not sure if bypassing/ modifying/ eliminating the chimney are options for exhaust in my case. Easier said than done I'm guessing.

    Thanks

  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Posts: 1,187

    The liner does not correct structural problems. It's a conduit or container. That's it. Ceramic flue sealants are not recognized by the codes because codes deal with new construction. You may get your local AHJ to accept it but IF the chimney is found to be sound according to a level II inspection, dry, and otherwise suitable. Ceramic liners fail if there is moisture penetration or improperly applied. They are still high mass cold chimneys not suitable for short duty cycles, such as with heating. Their durability against highly acidic condensate remains to be seen. You can take a strip of ss, run it through a machine that corrugates it then rolls it into a spiral clenching the seam as it goes and you have a 0.005 to 0.006" thick liner. You can also take that same strip and run it through a set of rollers that roll it onto a flat tube about 1/2" wide then a single layer 'joint' to the adjoining tubular roll. The rolls are 4ply but the 'seams' or valleys between than are still just single walled. Then you can roll this process to where the tubes overlap each other so you get a 4 ply round liner 0.005x4=0.002" of ss and best of all, the inner surface is smooth. This does not offer the flow restriction of a typical corrugated liner that must be derated 20%, does not hold solid or particulates very well such as creosote or fly as (wood, pellet or oil soot) and if it does it partially cleans itself by continual expansion/ contraction cycles. It also is smooth on the outside so it does not hang up going down the way corrugated liners do. They're slick.

    Now, there are cast in place ceramic or refractory liner systems listed to UL 1777 for a 2,100F rating at zero clearance to combustibles. Most use an inflatable rubber bladder form while Ahrens pulls a vibrating bell through a zero-slump mix that then gets a glaze coating. Again, these are high mass liners better suited for continual wood burning.

    If you have the room, you could drop a metallic vent or class A chimney. These are, like the liners, low mass so they heat up quickly and maintain a stable draft. They are smooth on the inside so no derating and they flow great without corrugations to collect crude. Even on gas, use type L vent instead of B-vent. The ss liner does not rob heat as bad as the aluminum liner in B-vent so you get and keep a stronger draft with less condensation.

    EK equipment is unusual compared to the rest of the market. You do what they say how they say or not at all. Most techs are not trained by EK at their facility to sell, install and service their equipment which is essential. If you don't have a solid EK dealer for support then steer clear. If he's the only EK guy in your service area, think about it if he disappoints you who would you turn to.

    All that said, EK is great equipment with great performance. Just do what they say and not what the rest of the industry typically does and it will serve you well.

  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited June 27

    Thanks Bob, I'm guessing that I'd be looking into the 316 Ti smoothwall where the 4 tubes overlap, I appreciate the help.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Posts: 18,834

    @charlie123 , FWIW, I have a customer with an EK and he loves it. And the EK folks were very helpful when I first encountered it. I can't over-emphasize following the instructions- a previous "tech" hadn't and the unit sooted up. But it's run fine since we took over.

    Co-Founder, All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA

  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited June 28

    @Steamhead Thanks for that, and yes I do intend to purchase from an experienced EK dealer/ installer. I've been told a few times that the installer's familiarity with any given brand is an important consideration, I would think that's even more important when it comes to EK.

  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited September 9

    Just a follow-up to this: I was able to contact the retired, highly-regarded inspector who I used in the past and get a referral, and I'm told that my chimney is fine, it needs to be resealed and it was suggested that the current cap, which only provides 4" clearance over the 2 flues, be replaced with 2 separate flues that allow 10" clearance. I've read that 5-6" clearance should be minimum, and 10" clearance might allow rain water in.

    The person inspecting suggested that a 6" liner (20 foot double wall UL listed 316L) was called for but after I mentioned adjusting based on BTU's, he agreed that a 5" would work. My understanding is that sleeve diameter is based primarily on the boiler output, the liner manufacturer's product and I assume length of liner. I assumed that this was a critical calculation in properly designing a heating system so one should strive to determine the output before making any recommendation.

    Also, is 316L fine or should I look for Ti? Thought I read that Ti is the norm these days.

    Since I only need 2-2 1/2 tons of heat I want to have the EK-1 adjusted to provide the lowest output possible: is that primarily done via the port size?

    If so, I'm wondering what the smallest port size is and what the corresponding output is.

    However, if there's a chance that this smaller port might have issues with clogging, it might be good to know what the next size port and corresponding output would be.

    Thanks again for your help.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 20,938

    You are correct. The liner is sized by the BTU output of the connected appliances, the height of the liner and the liner diameter.

    There are various liner sizing charts on line .

    But if your installing an EK and know the boiler you need I would get the recommendation from them.

    They frequent this forum.

    Post your chimney height.

  • Hi Ed, he proposed a 20' liner, thanks.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Posts: 7,656
    Screenshot_20260909_170710_Samsung Notes.jpg

    EK does not recommend chimney venting when you down fire from the factory firing rate. At that point, just go for the Resolute. I don't mind spending your money.

    I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results using the factory firing rate. Not sure about the 5" chimney. The EK-1 is 4 inch and they want you to increase to 5 inch at the boiler. Then 5 inch to the chimney. I just installed one in my own home but I have an interior chimney. -.02/-.04 draft. If I had to, I'd go with a 6 inch smoothie liner.

  • charlie123
    charlie123 Posts: 73
    edited September 9

    Thanks HVACNUT, I was wondering if that's what I was seeing there, that lower rates and chimney's might not mix.

    FWIW, my chimney is exterior although I was told that I didn't need insulation.

    Is the Resolute that much more $? Does it offer lower output while still being compatible with chimneys?

    Assuming that the EK-1 is where I'll stay, at the .85 rate it appears to be ~120, 000 BTU: I guess knowing this plus the 20' length hopefully EK can advise on what size double-wall liner I need, unless they also need to know the liner manufacturer. Either way, it sounds like the 5-6" range.