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Ignition problem

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Comments

  • AlaskaDick
    AlaskaDick Member Posts: 41

    I've used the wire in the tie from a loaf of bread to clean various small holes. The one on today's bread measures .016".

    guzzinerd
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135

    I get the feeling the Q348U is only universal to a point, it seems it is not for standing pilot systems.

    Maybe one of these depending on which type is used.

    image.png

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Q327A1626-Install.pdf

    I'm guessing

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460
    edited March 19

    Great info. The burner and pilot did go out that evening. I lit the pilot yesterday morning and it's still on this today. Told her to get the gas company out to check the pressure before i go and do anything else.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,989

    it will work on a standing pilot, just don't install the flame rod

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,989

    you could try putting a relighter on it but i think something is floating around and plugging the orifice.

    bjohnhy
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460
    edited March 19

    If her gas pressure tests good I'll probably get one. One of the wings on her unit is broken off.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135

    The Q348U instructions specifically mention for intermittent pilot, nothing about a thermocouple. Besides the igniter rod assembly looks crimped or a press fit in place, I don't think the manufactures intent is a field retrofit to a thermocouple. I will look at it again later.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,572

    For standing pilot, the Q327A is a good batwing replacement. The Q314A would cover target-type applications.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    guzzinerd
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135

    Since a new gas valve was installed (whether it needed it or not), I believe the present issue is high pressure to the pilot, audible in the video (and the main burner pressure was a bit high also) . I bet the pilot pressure was never adjusted with the new gas valve.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,989

    if you watch the video the pilot goes out then the safety valve closes because the pilot went out. the problem isn't that the thermocouple isn't being heated, the problem is that the pilot is going out. the pilot isn't orange or lifting off the burner, it just suddenly goes out. many old, large plots are quite loud if you get down near them in a quiet room.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,989

    do you have a longer clip of the pilot burner burning? you posted it just as it goes out, we can't see how it is burning before that.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135
    edited March 20

    I never said the thermocouple was not getting heated. The question is why is the pilot going out ??? I'm thinking too much fuel (not lack of air) until someone proves me wrong.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460

    Just seeing these last replies.... 90-degree heatwave started yesterday. Will go over and film the pilot and post here first chance I get.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,935

    What is the btu rating on the boiler? They may be flooding the combustion chamber and it extinguishes the pilot then all off. It does look like they put new gas valve in. Throwing parts at this is not the way to get there. That gas valve they installed has a capacity of 230000 so they quite readily could have overfired ? If no rating plate, find the main burner orifice and check it with number drill set then look in natural gas flow rate chart for orifices. Most likely at 3.5 " wc .

    guzzinerd
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,935

    Looks like gas pressure based on your 9.2 mbar would not be too far off 3.5" wc. How long did it stay on with main burner before flaming out? Any obstructions in flue passages in boiler? Draft, chimney clear?

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 16,989
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135

    Does it still do that ? Go out with the burner (thermostat) off.

    I'm not sure we got an update. I'm loosing track, crushed thermocouple wire, old thermocouples, new thermocouple possibly installed . . .

    I'd lower the burner pressure to at least 3.5 WC and adjust the pilot, then reassess the situation.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    guzzinerd
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,935

    I missed that and read most everything.

  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460

    Sorry i haven't updated yet. We just went from highs in the 50s to 90+. Should cool down again so can fire it up. Pilot has stayed on which is nice

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460

    Final update guys. I bought a new Q327A pilot assembly and installed it yesterday morning. Has been working fine for 24hrs now.

    Thanks for all your help.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,168

    I have not seen where you actually measured the thermocouple millivolts: open circuit, closed, and dropout. You can use test/ interrupter blocks such as above. Any service call or diagnostic should include gas inlet pressures- everything off in the house static pressure, this pilot only, burner main operator closed circuit, then house under full load. If it does not drop out or drop below the minimum wci PMI, measure manifold pressure PMI and adjust the regulator on the valve as needed (typically 3.5 wci on residential applications NG). Look at your pilot flame: the TC should bifurcate the flame across the top ~3/8", blue, stable flame, TC not completely cooked red (hint of red usually ok but refer to mv PMI). Note that many mfrs will flatten the TC near the cold junction and stamp markings. This is not a defect/ damage. Twisting or breaking the outer copper jacket is. See mv readings. BTW, if the open circuit mv on just a TC peg at 30mv or even higher on LPG, consider lowering the pilot flame . On thermopile systems, we set the open circuit mv around 500mv so it does not cool the tip off (LPG notorious for cooking tips off TC's) . Pilot burner flames too hot can overheat the entire TC, thus losing the 400F differential btw the hot and cold junctions for the Seebeck Effect to work. Check the pilot orifice- did someone ream it out or is it a NG running on LPG? Also, an incorrect pilot assy. can cause nuisance dropout. BTW, the Flame Failure Response Time for a 30 mv TC per ANSI is 180 seconds. You should be conducting a dropout test on every ignition system. Electronic ignition systems vary per mfr. so look up for that system. Can range from 0.5-7 seconds typically before it attempts re-ignition.

    If the pilot flame is stable at standby but flutters at call for heat, measure the draft pressure in the stack and overfire. High draft can cause the pilot flame to pull-off .

    You should also be running combustion analysis .

    HTH,

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,135

    You may be able to measure the thermocouple voltage at the jumper, disconnect the jumper to see the unloaded voltage.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 460

    Will do

    I told my neighbor to call the local professionals because I'm not one. This company has installed all of the boilers in town the last couple of decades. They sent two different teams of two guys for a total of 4 hours. They left her a large bill and the pilot went out a few hours after they left. She's contesting their invoice.

    I stepped in because there was no other option other than leaving it for dead. Thanks to this forum's help it's good now. I'll check the voltage but all that other analysis stuff is out of my lane.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf