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New build small ADU over garage - sizing & heating (underfloor and domestic hot)

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Hello, first time here! I am owner-building a 1000 sq ft garage with 800 sq ft ADU for wife and self; it's in climate zone 4A. A 2500 sq ft home is planned in 18mos.

After doing some calculations, I would be grateful for advice on sizing and heating methods from pro's.

We have electric and propane (PV is planned in 1-2 years). Underfloor hydronic heating load is 36k btu. Mechanicals would be on 1st floor (mechanical room at back of garage): there is not much room in there!

I have read to not add the UF heating (36k) to DHW needs. So, for 2 people, is a tankless condensing combi adequate?

Thanks for reading!

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,116

    The garage/ADU is connected to the home? So one boiler for both the home and ADU?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8
    edited February 1

    The home (3bd single level) will have a separate heating system.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,060

    Most likely adequate — to get enough domestic hot water your going to need at least 110K BTUh output, and you'll be happier with 199,000. The underfloor heat isn't a significant part of that!

    And by the way. Don't be too optimistic about the PV. That, plus a battery bank, may be enough to keep the combi unit running, but it will be nowhere near enough to heat the place. You're still going to need the propane.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    The thing you will run into with underfloor heating is that if it's sized for your design day, on an average winter day it's not going to be very warm.

    Typically, heated floors are designed to be no more than 85F on the design day, the coldest day of the winter. In most places on an average winter day the heating load is about half of what it is on the design day. Heat output is determined by the difference between the floor temperature and the air temperature, so with a 70F air temperature your floors are going to be in the high 70's most of the time during the heating season.

    That's going to be very subtle. Your toes won't be cold, but they won't be toasty either.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    @Jamie Hall : "And by the way. Don't be too optimistic about the PV. That, plus a battery bank, may be enough to keep the combi unit running, but it will be nowhere near enough to heat the place. You're still going to need the propane."

    I would agree with the above if net metering is not available.

    If you have net metering available that's a much better deal than a battery pack. Just rough numbers, a house that size in zone 4 probably has an annual heating load of about 100 million BTU. Using purely resistive heat that would be about 35 million Watt hours. In most of North America a PV installation gets the equivalent of about 1000 hours of production if it is unobstructed, so that would require a 35kW installation, which is big but not unheard-of.

    If you use a heat pump you can cut the size by half or more.

    That's all dependent on having net metering. If you don't have net metering the most you can hope for is some load shaving.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,060

    Quite true, @DCContrarian . As you say, a 35 Kwatt array is a big puppy — and in many places which do have net metering the power company simply won't allow you to put in one which is bigger than they estimate your yearly demand is. Even if the local zoning will permit it and you have the land.

    The other factor I tend to consider is… what happens when the lights go out on a cold winter night?

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    "The other factor I tend to consider is… what happens when the lights go out on a cold winter night?"

    Buying a solar array doesn't mean you have to join a cult. If you live in a place where the power going out is a risk, by all means have a backup generator. And power it with fossil fuels.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,116

    buy an EV to power the heat and lights through the nights if the power goes out. Charge it with PV as much as possible

    Combis work well fir a household if two. A 110,000 get you at least 2 gpm. The boiler can be limited as low as 8,000 btu/ hr for heating

    Radiant floor heat is clean, comfortable and quiet, even if it is not warmer than skin temperature

    Fo you need AC in the ADU?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Larry Weingarten
  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8
    edited February 2

    That's interesting that the underfloor isn't a significant part of the total load. I agree with the solar comment, and as that is 18-24 mo away, we have done no sizing as the main home is not yet fully designed. Propane for hot water and forced heating backup.

    If we used an indirect-fired water tank, paired with a non-combi boiler (e.g. the Viessmann Vitodens 100-W B1HE series 85-199MBH), would that change your estimate of boiler BTUh output needed?

    Thanks!

  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8

    Thanks for comment.

    I used 12F/95F for coldest and warmest days in the Manual J location design conditions for LoopCAD. Rooms like bathrooms 75F heating design temps, and other rooms 72F. The 1st floor (6" concrete) will change temperature very slowly; the 2nd floor with PEX track just below the flooring will respond to changes a little quicker perhaps?

    A heat pump for supplemental heating/cooling, with an LPG furnace for backup heating is also included.

    With floor sensors and air thermostats are placed appropriately, I hope that will help maintain the comfort 🙏

  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8

    😅 absolutely! We have a 17kW unit, ready for LPG and gasoline at a pinch.

    In my childhood home, we used a outdoor wood-fired boiler with natural gas backup for DHW and space heating (radiators in England).. it was a good workout! Here in this site, we have several years of backup firewood.

  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8

    This ADU will be our home for the next 18 mo, and limited hot water is my concern with combi.

    There is room to locate an indirect-fired water tank (45-50gal) paired with a non-combi boiler (e.g. the Viessmann Vitodens 100-W B1HE series, 85-199mbh).

    My question is, in this scenario with non-combi and indirect water heating tank, with 36,000btu for underfloor, what boiler output would be 'optimal', and how does one get to that number?

    Appreciate the input!

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,116

    you could go as low as a 55,000 boiler with indirect

    I have the Lochinvar Knight wall hung 55,000, great boiler, lots of control options

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    A 36K heating load for 1800 square feet with 12F design temp is really high for new construction. Like twice what I'd consider good.

    The number one thing you can do to improve comfort is to make your house tight and well insulated. An ounce of insulation is worth a pound of hydronics.

    Garages are notoriously hard to insulate. You want your living space to be air separated from the garage for fire safety, you should insulate between them too. An 800 square foot living space that is built to the best modern standards you should literally be able to heat with a blow dryer in your climate.

    For insulation tips, I'd ask over at Green Building Advisor, those guys are more focused on that side of construction.

    Larry Weingarten
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    @littletwig: "I used 12F/95F for coldest and warmest days in the Manual J location design conditions for LoopCAD. Rooms like bathrooms 75F heating design temps, and other rooms 72F. The 1st floor (6" concrete) will change temperature very slowly; the 2nd floor with PEX track just below the flooring will respond to changes a little quicker perhaps?

    "A heat pump for supplemental heating/cooling, with an LPG furnace for backup heating is also included."

    With a 12F design temp your climate is probably like NY City (13F design). There, January is the coldest month, average low of 29F, high of 40F.

    If you're designing for 72F indoors, that's 60F of difference at design temperature. On a typical January day, when it's 34F out, that's 38F of difference, so your heat will run about 60%. If you design your floors for a temperature of 85F on design day they'd only be 80F on an average day.

    Particularly for bathrooms and other areas where you're likely to be barefoot, a better strategy is to design the floors to be at 85F on the average day, but never go above 85. On days that are colder than average use that furnace or heat pump to supplement and make up the difference.

  • littletwig
    littletwig Member Posts: 8

    Thanks, I suspect despite trying to specify as accurately as possible in LoopCAD, some of our specificed insulation is higher than LoopCAD offers.

    We have 2x6 framing with R-21 Rockwool wall insulation; every effort will be made to seal penetrations, and energy recovery is to be used. The attic is fully conditioned.

    Tweaking some design conditions, LoopCAD still shows a heating load of 25,600 Btu/hr!

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,440

    When I hear "fully conditioned attic" I think spray foam. Which means it's almost a certainty that you don't have the full R49 that zone 4 requires.

    In zone 4, a side wall needs R30, or R20 plus R5 of exterior foam insulation.

    I wish I had a nickel for every time we had someone come here who started off saying "my house is super-well insulated" and after pressing them for details it turns out it's actually sub-standard.