HELP - NO ONE can figure this out!! (STEAM System)
I have been desperately trying to get help from our contractor since our new install has not worked correctly since it was put in in September.
Thanks to some amazing folks on here, we were able to see that the contractor installed the wrong domestic hot water coil and that was why we didn't have heat. He put a HOT WATER coil in instead of a STEAM coil. (Weil McLain EG-40 can be installed as EITHER hot water or steam and has a slot for each coil.) He had the water level ALL THE WAY up the boiler so that the coil was submerged but then there was no room for steam.
Switching the coils gave us heat, but two radiators (which worked with the old system) aren't getting heat.
However. when they put in the correct coil, they left the other one in the chamber. The manufacturer insisted that we won't get the correct performance as long as the 2nd coil was in there (even though it was unhooked). The steam chamber is very small and the coil took up almost all of the area for steam. We lost the battle to get him to remove the wrong one and had to pay someone else to do it!
We have MUCH better performance, but those two radiators are still not heating up all the way.
Here is where things get even more complicated. We have a TWO pipe system WITH vents. And the contractor has not been willing to help us balance the system. We don't know how, but we are trying to learn.
The contractor has worked with us for 6 years and has always told us this was once a HOT WATER system that someone converted to STEAM. But with all I have learned now, I am wondering if this is what Dan Holohan refers to in his article, "Grabbing the Elephant." Here is an excerpt:
There was a time in American Heating History when they didn’t use thermostatic radiator traps. They didn’t use these devices because no one had invented them yet; and you cannot install what has not been invented. This lack of traps, however, didn’t stop the Dead Men from installing steam heat. They just put in these two-pipe, air-vent systems, which look remarkably like two-pipe, direct-return hot-water systems.
The steam leaves the boiler and heads up into the building. It favors the supply lines, of course, because these are usually larger than the return lines by at least one size. Steam follows the path of least resistance. The Dead Men put an angle valve on each side of every radiator so that tenants could shut off the heat if it got too warm. The air left the radiators through the one-pipe-steam air vents. The steam heated the radiators, and the condensate dribbled down the return lines. The steam flowed into the return lines along with the condensate because there was nothing there to stop it. After a while, there was steam everywhere, and that was perfectly normal for this system. And since there were so few moving parts, these systems lasted for as long as the building stood.
I've had 2 additional experts look at the system and no one can tell me what needs to be done to get heat to these two problem areas. They have ideas, but no guarantees. I'm sure they could figure it out with enough time, but that costs SO much money!
So, what do we do to get these two rads working?????
I know the near piping is wrong. They didn't put in a Hartford Loop, but will that matter for the rads all heating up? The header he installed is 2" but should have been 2.5" - will that make a big difference? The equalizer should be 1.5" but it is 1.25" and it is not shaped correctly. One of the guys I have consulted with mentioned that maybe it is pressurizing the return. I am not sure I fully understand that, but can anyone help me see if that could be why those 2 rads are not working? The quote to fix all this is a lot! And I just paid for the new system!
I feel like I have to become the expert here… but I need to know where to even go next in my research. I suspect the system needs to be balanced with vents, but is that the right direction? Am I missing something?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE for your time, expertise and ideas!
NOTE: I have made a detailed map of my system and put in pictures of everything. One of the radiators that isn't working heated ALMOST all the way over when we took the vent off to test. There are notes on the image.
Comments
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I know the near piping is wrong. They didn't put in a Hartford Loop, but will that matter for the rads all heating up? The header he installed is 2" but should have been 2.5" - will that make a big difference? The equalizer should be 1.5" but it is 1.25" and it is not shaped correctly.
You can ignore all of this. None of this would prevent only two radiators from working while the rest worked fine.
Your own experiment of removing the vent and seeing better heating, plus my own experiences and logic, tells me that your issue is that air is getting trapped somewhere.
The vents on those radiators might be bad. The supply or return pipes connected to those radiators might have settled and are now trapping water that is blocking the steam or air or both.
Forget everything else and look for things that could cause the steam to not make it in, or the air to not make it out, of those two radiators.
You can also forget the pitch of the radiators, that's not the answer either.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I will add that your main vents are garbage. They may or may not be involved in your issues, but they should be replaced with Gorton #1 or #2
As another data point, I for the first time recently saw a system really close to yours where there were two pipes on each radiator with no traps and no vents. Yours could have been like this one.
Your radiator with the vent probably had the vent added to try to fix this same problem which would make me think the focus should be on the supply pipes sagging and trapping water in them.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Im not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but did you use this site "Find a Contractor" BEFORE installation; now that your looking for advice from this site to correct improper installation and other uncorrected issues
Its just that the experts here could have prevented the problem in the first place, though to posters credit, this site is being used
Regards,
RTW
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I don't think you have a 2 pipe air vent system. You have a 2 pipe system. 2 pipe air vent has both connections at the bottom because it's essentially a 1 pipe with drain. Since yours are connected top (inlet) and bottom (outlet) I'd suggest you have a "normal" 2 pipe system. Not all of them had traps. Some used orifices, some used oversized radiation, others used regulating valves etc. There is no one size fits all on 2 pipe.
Personally I'd start by removing all the radiator vents first. After that look at the main venting, 2 pipe will need more main venting because it's venting all the radiation too. This also depends on the location of the vents in the basement. It appears that you have vents on the main and the dry return based on what you posted. I'm with Paul about those vents, garbage and definitely inadequate.
Looking again, you seem to have vents in the basement all over the place. Definitely some crazy going on here.
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