Cool old stuff

Steve_210 · November 14

Steamhead · November 14

That's a Webster "Type R" Vapor system.

Steve_210 · November 14

I read what I I could about it in laosh. A lot of water hammer, steam getting into return risers, trying to temporary isolate some of the risers to find the problems.
steam drops down before going up the riser, crossover trap at base of each riser.
Vents on top of Webster device in picture above seem small

Steve_210 · November 14

thanks

retiredguy · November 14

I saw about 10 old steam systems that had that set-up that worked perfectly until someone tried to re-engineer the system or decided that he knew how to make it work better.

Mad Dog_2 · November 14

Ah..Mr Webster....Great system. Mad Dog

Jamie Hall · November 14

Get the pressure down, @Steve_210 ! And then lower it some more. Anything over 8 ounces is going to cause trouble.

Odds are that some of the widgets that are supposed to be there aren't any more. The "I don't know what that is so I can throw it out" method of repair. Take a good look at the system description in LAOSH, but also think about just how it was intended to work.

The main vent may not be too small, although so long as someone didn't get creative and add other vents somewhere it won't hurt to make it bigger. But ay attention to the crossover traps — they have to be working properly, and the dry returns they vent into also have to be clear…

Steve_210 · December 19

a lot of the steam traps was getting a lot of in the returns I always try to get the pressure down, but sometimes 8 ounces is just not practical. Thanks for the advice.

Steve_210 · December 19

sorry that was meant to say we changed a lot of steam traps

mattmia2 · December 19

if the specialties are not still there then you have to get it down to 8 oz because the specialties aren't there to equalize the main and the return to keep water from pushing out of the water seals.

if there are vents in other locations, if the specialties are there and the pressure goes over 8oz or so, the extra vents will let the equalizing fill the returns with steam.

mattmia2 · December 19

if the radiator traps are coming in to play that is a sign that the pressure is too high or that other knuckleheading has occurred

Jamie Hall · December 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878141#Comment_1878141

Ah… 8 ounces is quite practical. What is needed, however, is a vapourstat (0 to 16 ounce) rather than a pressuretrol. There are many vapour systems out there running very well at actually slightly less than that cutout. In fact, an intact Hoffman Equipped system —- such as the principal one I maintain — needs the cutout set at 6 ounces, as the Differential Loop trips at 8 ounces.

Steve_210 · December 19

OK Jamie but the heat needs to work in every apartment. I have vaporstats very familiar with them. Thank you.

mattmia2 · December 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878152#Comment_1878152

if the heat isn't working in some apartment, it isn't because the pressure is too low, at least not on a vapor system.

maybe on a conventional system that is using steam to lift condensate.

Jamie Hall · December 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878152#Comment_1878152

Lowering the pressure will not affect the evenness of the heating in the budling, unless there are other problems which high pressure is masking — and if there are radiators blowing by because of the excess pressure and missing or broken traps, it may actually make it more even.

Steve_210 · December 19

agreed, but you might not always be able to find them problems in a couple of hours especially if someone has no heat and it’s 9° outside

Jamie Hall · December 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878159#Comment_1878159

Agreed. One thing you can probably do fairly quickly — and at a moment when the burners are off — is install a reliable (0 to 3 psig) gauge on the header or a nearby handy steam line. I stress nearby. Why there? Because in such a location the pressure variations in the boiler itself will be damped out, and you can get a much better idea as to what pressures the system is actually running at (that's a good location for the control vapourstat when you get to installing one, too).

Then as the system fires up — in your copious free time while dealing with fractious tenants) watch how the pressure behaves. If you have adequate venting on the mains and dry returns, it will rise fairly quickly as steam is established, but then it will stop rising quickly (it may stop rising completely) while the system fills with steam. Then, if the run is long enough, it will start to rise fairly quickly again. Note the pressure when it starts to rise quickly again — that is the pressure you want the system to cut out at, whatever it may be (much better than my theorizing — or anyone else's for that matter).

If it never stops rising moderately quickly, your main venting is inadequate, and the problem is at least as likely to be on the dry returns as it is on the mains.

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